What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

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I think the logic stands up fine actually…

I would suggest that God being the Perfect Planner, would send a Saviour the day after Adam’s Fall…why is that illogical?
 
Servant19 said:
this still doesn’t answer my question as to why God would not send a Saviour the day after Adam fell? He is the Perfect Being, and can Plan perfectly…
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God does things HIS way.
We can’t criticize God on
how God plans and does
things.

God did, if you’re interested, already begin to promise a Savior (See Genesis 3:15).
 
Servant19 said:
What bad deeds?
Moses killed someone who was about to kill…a sign of God’s justice…

Why did Jesus destroy other peoples property?
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Moses was not even allowed into the “promised land” as a punishment for disobeying God and it had nothing to do with his killing of the Egyptian. Of course he had bad deeds, just like every other person you hold as a prophet or “Manifestation”. That is why only Jesus, who was sinless, could offer a sacrifice on man’s behalf that could satisfy God’s perfect Justice.

What Jesus did in the Temple was to defend his Father’s house. It was being used to cheat people rather than a place to worship. Jesus was completely justified in his actions.
 
Servant19 said:
I think the logic stands up fine actually…
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But it doesn’t. Anyone here with the ability to read can see that, so far.
I would suggest that God being the Perfect Planner, would send a Saviour the day after Adam’s Fall…why is that illogical?
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I also want to hear the Bahai answer to this first.
 
PRmerger said:
What’s the Bahai answer to this?
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The Baha’i answer is, there is no Adam’s Fall, its a symbolic story intended to define our NEED for God’s guidance, and its consequences if we adhere to the guidance, and the consequences if we do not…

I could elaborate a lot more, but we will keep things simple…I don’t want to be told I’m intellectually dishonest…
 
SteveVH said:
That is why only Jesus, who was sinless, could offer a sacrifice on man’s behalf that could satisfy God’s perfect Justice.
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I would tweak the above a bit and say that it is because Jesus was God, not only because he was sinless, that he could offer a sacrifice on man’s behalf that could satisfy God’s perfect Justice.

For even Mary, Adam and Eve, who were all born** sinless**, were they to offer themselves as sacrifices, could not have atoned for our sins simply because they were sinless.
 
Servant19 said:
The Baha’i answer is, there is no Adam’s Fall, its a symbolic story intended to define our NEED for God’s guidance, and its consequences if we adhere to the guidance, and the consequences if we do not…
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So why didn’t God make us without a need for His guidance?
 
SteveVH said:
Moses was not even allowed into the “promised land” as a punishment for disobeying God and it had nothing to do with his killing of the Egyptian. Of course he had bad deeds, just like every other person you hold as a prophet or “Manifestation”. That is why only Jesus, who was sinless, could offer a sacrifice on man’s behalf that could satisfy God’s perfect Justice.

What Jesus did in the Temple was to defend his Father’s house. It was being used to cheat people rather than a place to worship. Jesus was completely justified in his actions.
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we have a lot of things to consider…

Historical verification of specific deeds is one
Justification for a deed is another…

We cannot base this discussion on the deeds of the Godhead…its on the teachings and His Reality
 
the bahai believe that God created man as sinful.

it is RC teaching that God created only good and that man freely chose to sin.

i am unsure why the bahai would worship a god that created man to be sinful.
 
PRmerger said:
So why didn’t God make us without a need for His guidance?
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Because He created us in a manner that reflects His Reality, in His image, and in order to reflect His light, we need to keep the mirror polish. He provides the polish.

I would not say it is a “need” as such but an “inner longing”…

…this is God from the beginning of time…
 
PRmerger said:
So Abraham was saved because he was a messenger. The Jews are saved because of Moses?

The bad deeds that these messengers do that offend God are wiped away…how?
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The bad deeds of messengers and prophets are wiped away by the same means used by the average person: prayer, promise to make amends, and execution of that promise. Blood sacrifice of animals (or grain for poorer people) was the external manifestation of this, but of little use as a means of atonement for most sins by itself. No messenger or prophet can vicariously atone in full for another person’s bad deeds. This is an individual matter between each human being and G-d or between humans, depending on the type of sin committed. G-d promises, according to the Book of Isaiah, that ALL of our sins will become “white as snow” through good deeds and prayerful atonement.
 
PRmerger said:
I would tweak the above a bit and say that it is because Jesus was God, not only because he was sinless, that he could offer a sacrifice on man’s behalf that could satisfy God’s perfect Justice.

For even Mary, Adam and Eve, who were all born** sinless**, were they to offer themselves as sacrifices, could not have atoned for our sins simply because they were sinless.
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Yes, of course. Very important point. 👍
 
eddie_too said:
the bahai believe that God created man as sinful.

it is RC teaching that God created only good and that man freely chose to sin.

i am unsure why the bahai would worship a god that created man to be sinful.
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This is another falsehood. God created man perfect, according to Baha’i teachings

eddie, I can’t keep correcting you and I won’t from now on. If you continue to promote falsehoods about the Baha’i Faith, I will just respond with the word “False”…I can’t continue with your false accusations any more
 
Servant19 said:
The Baha’i answer is, there is no Adam’s Fall, its a symbolic story intended to define our NEED for God’s guidance, and its consequences if we adhere to the guidance, and the consequences if we do not…

I could elaborate a lot more, but we will keep things simple…I don’t want to be told I’m intellectually dishonest…
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Oh great, “there is no Adam’s Fall,” that
tends to be the solution to sin of many
religions emerging in recent centuries.

I could buy how the Genesis account is symbolic, but only in terms of how humanity
fell into sin. If Genesis did not mean to convey that message, why did God have Paul
write in his Epistle to the Romans?:"…just as sin came into the world through one man,
and death came through sin, and so death spread to
all because all have sinned…"
  • (Romans 5:12)
    (Read the whole chapter if you’d like)
    ​
 
Servant19 said:
Because He created us in a manner that reflects His Reality, in His image, and in order to reflect His light, we need to keep the mirror polish. He provides the polish.

I would not say it is a “need” as such but an “inner longing”…

…this is God from the beginning of time…
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But how were the Gentiles to keep their mirrors polished without the means for salvation? Why would God do that?
 
meltzerboy said:
The bad deeds of messengers and prophets are wiped away by the same means used by the average person: prayer, promise to make amends, and execution of that promise. Blood sacrifice of animals (or grain for poorer people) was the external manifestation of this, but of little use as a means of atonement for most sins by itself. No messenger or prophet can vicariously atone in full for another person’s bad deeds. This is an individual matter between each human being and G-d or between humans, depending on the type of sin committed. G-d promises, according to the Book of Isaiah, that ALL of our sins will become “white as snow” through good deeds and prayerful atonement.
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Absolutely Meltzer. Faith AND Deeds, these twin duties are inseparable…
 
Lochias said:
But how were the Gentiles to keep their mirrors polished without the means for salvation? Why would God do that?
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Moses was there, they could’ve listened to Him I’m sure…He gave really good polish at the time 🙂

If they were completely unaware of Moses, God makes provisions…
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
Oh great, “there is no Adam’s Fall,” that
tends to be the solution to sin of many
religions emerging in recent centuries.

I could buy how the Genesis account is symbolic, but only in terms of how humanity
fell into sin. If Genesis did not mean to convey that message, why did God have Paul
write in his Epistle to the Romans?:"…just as sin came into the world through one man,
and death came through sin, and so death spread to
all because all have sinned…"
  • (Romans 5:12)
    (Read the whole chapter if you’d like)
    ​
Click to expand...
If Genesis is symbolic, and the earth is not 6000 years old, then how did humanity fall into sin, for your perspective Judas?
 
Would love to keep chatting guys, but its past midnight, and its my birthday tomorrow!!

Yay!!!

Gotta sleep, the wife has made good food…I love her 🙂
 
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