What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

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daler said:
Lochias,
. I don’t think Servant is playing games with you, but quite honestly, he may have some difficulty keeping a lid on his enthusiasm and how he tries to express himself. Just my opinion. Maybe he misstates something here or there, but it is not an intentional thing. Rather, just part of the sorting out process.

. My (name removed by moderator)ut on the lamp thing is that there is a lamp in everyone’s heart and head, but it needs the wick trimmed now and then, and the lens polished to see things clearly. Its a fair analogy, if applied right.

. Hitler didn’t keep his wick trimmed very well. His ego got out of control, and his racism, nationalism, etc. He had intelligence, but misused it, having no heart.

. Mother Theresa on the other hand, was both intelligent and motivated by love of mankind. Compassion was her 1000 watt bulb.

. My own thoughts are that if you’re driving down the highway at night you need both your headlights turned on. The highway to heaven has some curves in the road, turns of temptation, and potholes to watch out for. We need light, and that light comes from the Lampposts God places along the road. These Lamps are the Prophets, Who Light the Way for us.

. What did Jesus bring that Moses didn’t? Well They didn’t live at the same time. Moses brought all the Light we needed when He appeared. Jesus, in His time, brought exactly as much Light as God wanted us to have at the time. The question then remains, do we have enough Light for the particular point in time and position on the road for this time we live in now?

. All of these Lamps get Their electricity from God. He controls the wattage. If we prefer to close our eyes to the Light God provides, whether due to pride or ignorance, its on us.

. God bless you, brother.

.
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Ah, but all of this falls flat on its face if evil does not exist, which Servant has already stated. Why would God punish anyone if all that they can be is good, even if it’s only a smidge?
 
Servant19 said:
This is like saying “Why make us in need of food and water”
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No, it is like saying, “Why make us in need of polish”?

We are perfect already, according to your paradigm. Yet we are in need of polish.

That is clearly not a perfect human creature. A perfect human creature would not be in need of any polish. He would be able to shine the light of God all by himself, no?
 
Lochias said:
Ah, but all of this falls flat on its face if evil does not exist, which Servant has already stated. Why would God punish anyone if all that they can be is good, even if it’s only a smidge?
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Lochias,
. Of course evil exists, but it is compared to darkness being the absence of light. Hence evil is the absence of good.

. What I think was referred to is that you can’t walk around in the light of day with a “dark sun” and cancel out the sunlight with darkness which, by itself, does not exist. So its a relative thing.

. Now, it is also true that people can throw blankets over the Light and censor the Word of God from reaching certain people, but the Word still endures and the Light still shines. People just have to be aware of the absence of light in their lives and search harder to find the Source of the Light.

. Truly, if the soul hungers and yearns for the Word of God, whether he/she lives in the time of Moses or Jesus, or indeed today, there is a Source from which the Light emanates, and the “true seeker” will find that Source. There are conditions which are required of the station of the seeker:

. “O My brother! When a true seeker determineth to take the step of search in the path leading unto the knowledge of the Ancient of Days, he must, before all else, cleanse his heart, which is the seat of the revelation of the inner mysteries of God, from the obscuring dust of all acquired knowledge, and the allusions of the embodiments of satanic fancy. He must purge his breast, which is the sanctuary of the abiding love of the Beloved, of every defilement, and sanctify his soul from all that pertaineth to water and clay, from all shadowy and ephemeral attachments. He must so cleanse his heart that no remnant of either love or hate may linger therein, lest that love blindly incline him to error, or that hate repel him away from the truth. Even as thou dost witness in this Day how most of the people, because of such love and hate, are bereft of the immortal Face, have strayed far from the Embodiments of the Divine mysteries, and, shepherdless, are roaming through the wilderness of oblivion and error…”

from Gleanings of the Writings of Baha’u’llah, page 264

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-125.html

.
 
PRmerger said:
No, it is like saying, “Why make us in need of polish”?

We are perfect already, according to your paradigm. Yet we are in need of polish.

That is clearly not a perfect human creature. A perfect human creature would not be in need of any polish. He would be able to shine the light of God all by himself, no?
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PR

. If you buy a brand new mirror at the store, take it out of the box and wrapper, then set it on the shelf, how long before it acquires a layer of dust from simply being exposed to the air around it?

. Thus, we dust the mirror as we dust the shelves. It is a daily process, to cleanse ourselves of dust accumulated from the world. The mirror of the heart exists to reflect the Light of God and cannot do so accurately unless cleansed from obscuring dust. Note the preceding quote, if you will…
 
daler said:
PR

. If you buy a brand new mirror at the store, take it out of the box and wrapper, then set it on the shelf, how long before it acquires a layer of dust from simply being exposed to the air around it?

. Thus, we dust the mirror as we dust the shelves. It is a daily process, to cleanse ourselves of dust accumulated from the world. The mirror of the heart exists to reflect the Light of God and cannot do so accurately unless cleansed from obscuring dust. Note the preceding quote, if you will…
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So who is the polish in this metaphor? God? Bahaullah? :confused:
 
Servant19 said:
Just wondering what it was that Jesus brought to humanity that was not already brought by Moses Himself?

What is the Catholic (and non-Catholic if anyone wishes to contribute) position on this?

Thanks and G-d bless!
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Jesus brought the face of God to humanity. Moses was not allowed to see God’s face. It is because God cannot be seen in its entirety in His essence. It is impossible to know God in His essence. Therefore as the Scriptures said in Exodus God had shown to Moses His back. This means one can never know God in His essence. But in time God decided to give Himself a face when Jesus the Son of God took upon Himself our human nature. Here we can come to know God when we come to know Jesus. Jesus revealed God to us because He is also God and it is in His attributes that we come to know the Eternal God.
 
PRmerger said:
So who is the polish in this metaphor? God? Bahaullah? :confused:
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PR,
. I didn’t think of it in that way, as you frame it, that the polish is a “who”, but rather that in seeking God, we need to cleanse our own hearts from the spotting of self and desire. A couple of perspectives may be gained in the following verses, one from the Hidden Words of Baha’u’llah, and another from Gleanings:

O MY SON!

The company of the ungodly increaseth sorrow, whilst fellowship with the righteous cleanseth the rust from off the heart. He that seeketh to commune with God, let him betake himself to the companionship of His loved ones; and he that desireth to hearken unto the word of God, let him give ear to the words of His chosen ones.

. “Ye are even as the bird which soareth, with the full force of its mighty wings and with complete and joyous confidence, through the immensity of the heavens, until, impelled to satisfy its hunger, it turneth longingly to the water and clay of the earth below it, and, having been entrapped in the mesh of its desire, findeth itself impotent to resume its flight to the realms whence it came. Powerless to shake off the burden weighing on its sullied wings, that bird, hitherto an inmate of the heavens, is now forced to seek a dwelling-place upon the dust. Wherefore, O My servants, defile not your wings with the clay of waywardness and vain desires, and suffer them not to be stained with the dust of envy and hate, that ye may not be hindered from soaring in the heavens of My divine knowledge.”

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-153.html
What would your own impressions be, PR, as to approaching God, in preparing yourself to receive His verses, or to attain His Presence?
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Thank you

.
 
chimo said:
Jesus brought the face of God to humanity. Moses was not allowed to see God’s face. It is because God cannot be seen in its entirety in His essence. It is impossible to know God in His essence. Therefore as the Scriptures said in Exodus God had shown to Moses His back. This means one can never know God in His essence. But in time God decided to give Himself a face when Jesus the Son of God took upon Himself our human nature. Here we can come to know God when we come to know Jesus. Jesus revealed God to us because He is also God and it is in His attributes that we come to know the Eternal God.
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Chimo,

. This is very interesting, the idea that God can have a “Face”. I would think that we would naturally think of this in terms of a human “face”, in the ways that we behold other people and each other, and what the implications of that are.

. For example, in many cultures, it is really important to “save face”, which I mention because there is much more implied than what might be contained in a visual image alone. The face expresses emotion and conveys much. For God to give men a “Face” to behold Him, I wonder what does that mean?

. So then it makes me think of the Words of Jesus in John 14:8 - 10

. "Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father '? "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.…

. So then I found this in Selections of the Writings of the Bab, p 46:

. “And hadst thou attained the presence of thy Lord in this land, and been of them that truly believe that the Face of God is beheld in the person of the Primal Point …”

bahai-library.com/writings/bab/swb/3/sec-10.html

. Again, the phrase “behold the Face” appears in Gleanings of Baha’u’llah:

. “Verily I say, this is the Day in which mankind can behold the Face, and hear the Voice, of the Promised One. The Call of God hath been raised, and the light of His countenance hath been lifted up upon men. It behoveth every man to blot out the trace of every idle word from the tablet of his heart, and to gaze, with an open and unbiased mind, on the signs of His Revelation, the proofs of His Mission, and the tokens of His glory.”

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-7.html

. How are we to gaze upon the “Face of God” unless we have Faith?

.
 
daler said:
PR,
. I didn’t think of it in that way, as you frame it, that the polish is a “who”, but rather that in seeking God, we need to cleanse our own hearts from the spotting of self and desire.
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Right.

So we are* not *perfect.
 
PRmerger said:
Right.

So we are* not *perfect.
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No PR, in the example daler gave you where you buy a brand new mirror from the hardware shop…in terms of its delectability, is it perfect? Yes

As it spends time in this world of dust, it acquires dust, it “becomes” imperfect…

Its the same with the soul of man, it is a perfect entity, trying to weave its way through a world full of imperfections, and as a result it loses its lustre somewhat.

It is only through the guidance provided by the Manifestation of God for the age in which it lives, will it be given the tools to restore its perfections
 
Servant19 said:
No PR, in the example daler gave you where you buy a brand new mirror from the hardware shop…in terms of its delectability, is it perfect? Yes

As it spends time in this world of dust, it acquires dust, it “becomes” imperfect…

Its the same with the soul of man, it is a perfect entity, trying to weave its way through a world full of imperfections, and as a result it loses its lustre somewhat.

It is only through the guidance provided by the Manifestation of God for the age in which it lives, will it be given the tools to restore its perfections
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So why couldn’t your God have made us so we don’t “become” imperfect?
 
PRmerger said:
So why couldn’t your God have made us so we don’t “become” imperfect?
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Because that denies the human being its most basic reality…free will

Without free will, we would all be puppets of God…
 
Servant19 said:
Because that denies the human being its most basic reality…free will

Without free will, we would all be puppets of God…
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Not at all. We all could choose to be not selfish.

Why don’t we, if we are perfect?
 
PRmerger said:
Not at all. We all could choose to be not selfish.

Why don’t we, if we are perfect?
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Because the dust of imperfections tarnish the mirror of our souls from a very young age. Parents, mostly inadvertently, are the sole contributors to this…
 
PRmerger said:
So NOT perfect creatures.
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Nope, born perfect, but becomes imperfect due to rejection of the Manifestation of God.

A baby is not born rejecting the Manifestation of God. With effective parenting/education and strict and absolutely undeviating adherence to the teachings of the Manifestation of God, a child can retain his/her perfect state in the eyes of God…
 
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