What must one do to be saved?

[apophasis]

Why don’t you define faith as a “Work”? .

Because Scripture does not. See my post to “grandfather” above.

 

[foundthelight]

Because Scripture does not. See my post to “grandfather” above.

And just where does it say that partaking of the Eucharist, being baptised and doing good in obedience to Jesus are works?

 

[foundthelight]

Because Scripture does not. See my post to “grandfather” above.

Your post to grandfather does not answer my question. Let me re-phrase it in two questions.

1. Is your faith forced on you by God?

If not then;

1. Did your faith come from your conscious decision to believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior in obedience to Scripture?

 

[grandfather]

(Rom. 3:23). One can no more “do certain things” to be damned than he can “do certain things” to be saved.

Nevertheless, scripture says, Jesus Himself says in scripture, that we must do things to be saved. He tells the rich young man to keep the commandments to be saved, doesn’t He? Doesn’t He say of the saved and condemned that it was their works, when they comforted Him, sick, hungry, in prison, or did not so comfort Him, that was what they DID, EARNED them their eternal fate? Please answer without adding your interpretation about the motives or meaning of those He spoke to. Does scripture plainly say that or not? These are only examples, but there are more.<<<<<<<

 

[savedsinner]

Romans 2:3-11

As I said in my previous post, Paul in Rom. 1-3 is building his case that both pagan Gentiles and self-righteous, religious Jews have sinned and are in need of God’s righteousness through faith in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:22-24).

Instead of sidestepping the passage I quoted, why don’t you explain what Paul is talking about when he writes:
“For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.”

If you ask me, I would explain it this way.
Paul is talking to the Jews who were judging the Gentiles, while they themselves were in sin.
Paul is telling them that God shows not partiality, he will Judge everyone according to their works, whether Gentile or Jew.

 

[apophasis]

And just where does it say that partaking of the Eucharist, being baptised and doing good in obedience to Jesus are works?

What’s your point? None of the above save you.

 

[Roman20]

Yes, one is saved by keeping the commandments, but the power to do so is given us by God’s grace. What does Jesus answer to the rich young man who kept all the commandments from birth, but could not give up his wealth to be perfect? Obedience is necessary for salvation. Salvation neither begins nor ends with us, as you say. Both are true. “You call me lord, lord, and that is what I am, but if you do not do what I tell you, what good am I to you?” Our cooperation with grace is necessary. We are able to keep His commandments by grace. We are saved by grace Christ obtained for us. Grace is the power God gives us to love and obey and overcome. “Without me you can do nothing”. Then what can we do WITH Him? We can cooperate with grace. Grace is like soap and water. You can believe in it, that it works in a bath, but if it is not applied you remain dirty. Believing in soap and water, or salvation, is useless unless you take a bath. You can believe that we are saved by Christ’s sacrifice and the grace He obtains for us, but it has to be applied. You know it is applied if you are penitent, love God, turned from sin, obedient. Your conscience tells you whether or not you are in the state of grace or sin. This is the crux of Luther’s error. He said obedience and/or repentance are unnecessary for salvation, but that all one needs to do is have faith in Christ, believe that He is the Son of God who died for our sins and was raised. This is what is behind sola fide. The pharisees studied scripture night and day. Knowledge of it did not help them. They also prayed daily. The things of faith were ever present in their lives and of utmost importance to them. Jesus said they were whited sepluchres, filthy inside. He said the LOVE of God was not in them, that they would die in their disobedience (sins) (go to hell). God not only leads us. We follow. There is a communion established by God, between God and the soul, and in this communion God leads and the soul cooperates and follows. If one believes God saves souls who do not cooperate with grace through obedience (love) then one denies free will. Believing we must cooperate with grace is not saying we have the power to save ourselves. Cooperation (repentance and obedience) is the sign that we accept God’s gift.

Incorrect it is not by keeping the commandments

The law was there to show sin and that alone!

You are saved by Believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, Placing your Trust in him, Repentance of sin and Confession of Jesus as Lord

Trust is the key here… Trust

 

[Roman20]

I think the Catholic answer is that everyone is saved through the Church. One must be in sanctifiying grace and a full member of the Church to be saved. It is possible for people to be saved without doing these things if they are somehow not able to (ie. if they never knew about Jesus, etc). But it is always through the Church and because of Christ’s crucifixtion that they are saved, even if they aren’t a full member for some innocent reason.

That is incorrect teaching its not through the church you are saved. Its through Jesus

Its nothing to do with being a member that is a lie to keep people in tradition

 

[apophasis]

Your post to grandfather does not answer my question.

You asked me why I don’t define faith as a work. I replied to “grandfather”:God’s written Word does not define faith as a “work.” “For by grace you have been saved through faith…not as a result of works….” You see, faith is counterpointed with works. The faith that saves is actually passive. It trusts/rests in the work of Another. Not to be confused with the works produced by those who ARE saved.I think this adequately answers your question to me. Don’t you think?

Let me re-phrase it in two questions.

1. Is your faith forced on you by God?

If not then;

1. Did your faith come from your conscious decision to believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior in obedience to Scripture?

These are completely different questions.

(1) No

(2) Yes, I made a conscious decision to believe in Jesus. I believed what He accomplished for me, once for all (in full), on the cross.

And according to Scripture that’s not “works.” It’s God who saved me “by grace through faith” because of Christ’s sacrificial work on the cross on my behalf - I didn’t save myself. My salvation was “gifted” (upon belief) because of the work of Another.

 

[foundthelight]

What’s your point? None of the above save you.

That’s odd.

Every bible translation that I have seen says that they are salvic. They all say that if we don’t do these things we either can’t enter the Kingdom of Heaven ( in the case of the Eucharist and baptism) or that we will have everlasting punishment (in the case of not doing good deeds).

If one says that they have faith and does not do these things one is condemned. Jesus said so. I will believe His statements and take them at face value.

Do you, perhaps, think they mean other than what they clearly say? Are you listening to the teachings of someone who has added to or taken away from the written word?

So. Are they “Works” or not?

 

[apophasis]

Instead of sidestepping the passage I quoted, why don’t you explain what Paul is talking about when he writes:
“For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.”

If you ask me, I would explain it this way.
Paul is talking to the Jews who were judging the Gentiles, while they themselves were in sin.
Paul is telling them that God shows not partiality, he will Judge everyone according to their works, whether Gentile or Jew.

I didn’t sidestep the issue. What you’re trying to do is build salvation doctrine on just a portion of Paul’s argument. Paul says to the self-righteous, religious Jew in Rom. 2:5:"But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,"In that “day” God will show no partiality toward Jew or Gentile. Paul goes on to say that both Jews and Greeks (Gentiles) are ALL UNDER SIN (3:9). This is Paul’s driving point in Romans chapters one and two. Amongst Jews and Greeks there are NONE righteous - “not even one” (Rom. 3:10). Hence, ALL are in need of righteousness:Rom 3:22 "even {the} righteousness of God (how?) through faith in Jesus Christ FOR all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"You see SS? Paul is driving home a point in Romans two about sin and divine judgment to make a doctrinal conclusion about salvation in Romans chapter three. His gospel (good news) of salvation is not found in Romans chapter two, but Romans three. You distort Paul’s gospel by stopping with chapter two and sidestepping the power of the cross to save sinners (through faith) - found in chapter three.

 

[With_Love]

I wrote this for some nice Baptists who hand me anti-catholic propaganda every Thursday.

What is Biblical Salvation?
And the Jailer Asked “Sir, What must I do to be Save?” This powerful question echoes through the ages among believers and non-believers alike. The bible seems quite clear on the issue, but many Christian groups around the world have altered Christs saving Gospel. I say let the bible proclaim the truth that can set men free.(John 8:32)

*First of all, Man is Saved by the free gift of GRACE ALONE and all of our actions flow from Grace working in our lives. (Ephesians 2:5,8, 2 Timothy 1:9, John 1:14, Acts 15:11-12, Romans 5:1-3, Acts 14:3, 2 Corinthians 13:14)

*We must have Faith that God is One and he sent his only Son, Jesus Christ, too die for all men‘s sins. We must believe that God is faithful to all of His promises and wills that all men be saved. (1 Timothy 2:3-4) We know that Faith is from God. (Luke 7:50, Matt 16:17, John 3:16, John 1:12, Romans 1:16, Acts 16:31-33, Romans 5:1)

• Hope is what saves us. (Romans 8:24)

*Love of God and Neighbor is essential for salvation. (John 14:15-30, Matt 12:50, John 13:34-35, Matthew 22:36-40, 1 Corinthians 13:1-3,13)

*Keep the Commandments in order to enter life. (Matt 19:17, Matt 22:40, Romans 13:8-10, 1 Corinthians 7:19, 1 John 2:4, 1 John 3:24)

*Repent of Sins and Ask God For Mercy. We Must also forgive those who offend us or we will not be forgiven. The bible is very clear that our being forgiven is dependent upon our forgiveness. (Matt 5:7, John 8:1–11, Matt 4:-8, Luke 15:18,21, Matthew 6:9-15, Matt 18:21-35, 2 Corinthians 7:10)

*We must Be Born of WATER and the SPIRIT to enter the Kingdom of God. (Acts 2:38, Ezekiel 36:25, 1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 22:16, John 3:1-5,22, Gal 3:27, Mark 16:16, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Matt 28:19, Matt 3:13-17, Acts 9:17-18)

*We must cooperate 100% with God’s gift of Grace Working in our lives. (Philippians 2:12-13, Matt 25:31-46, Matt 5:1-11, Ephesians 2:10, Galatians 5:6, James 2:24, Jame 2:26, 1 Timothy 5:8, Romans 2:6-8, Matt 7:21, John 14:12)

*We Must take up our Crosses Daily. (Luke 9:23) We Must also follow St. Paul’s example and run the race faithfully to the End. (2 Timothy. 4:5-7) With this in mind, we must avoid sin which is an offense against God. If we turn back to sin, we may become slaves to sin.(Romans 6:15-16) If we do not persevere to the end, we will not be saved.(Matt 24:13)
(Hebrews. 3:6-14, Matt 5:27-30, Mark 13:13, Hebrews 12:4, John 15:1-9, Romans 11:11-24, 1 Timothy 5:8, 1 Timothy 4:1, Galatians 5:1-6, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matt 6:14)

I must APOLOGIZE (In the Classic Greek Sense of Course) for the numerous scriptural references. I Ask you to please read through them Carefully and Prayerfully. Look for the Context. Always Ask yourself, “What does the Bible Actually say verses What I want it to say.” Being a Christian isn’t easy otherwise the Road to Heaven would be the wide road.(See Matt 7:13-14) Remember that All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.(2Timothy 3:16) It is not scriptural to overemphasize one important part of Christ’s Salvific work in our lives at the cost of down playing or even ignoring others important parts. Scripture very clearly states that: Grace, Faith in God, Hope, Love of God and Neighbor, receiving Mercy and forgiving others, producing Good Works, obeying the Commandments, Picking up our Cross daily, and persevering to the end are all necessary for salvation. Praying to Jesus Christ to be your Lord and Savior is necessary, but not sufficient for Salvation.(See Matt 7:21-23)

Your Friend and Spiritual Brother in Christ

 

[foundthelight]

(2) Yes, I made a conscious decision to believe in Jesus. I believed what He accomplished for me, once for all (in full), on the cross.

And according to Scripture that’s not “works.” It’s God who saved me “by grace through faith” because of Christ’s sacrificial work on the cross on my behalf - I didn’t save myself. My salvation was “gifted” (upon belief) because of the work of Another.

You seem to be admitting that God has given you the free will to chose either eternal life in glory or eternal suffering. If this decision is of **your **will, then it is not of God. You, then, have taken an action to “earn” eternal life.

 

[With_Love]

You seem to be admitting that God has given you the free will to chose either eternal life in glory or eternal suffering. If this decision is of **your **will, then it is not of God. You, then, have taken an action to “earn” eternal life.

We must pick up our Cross DAILY and follow after him. Those who are unwilling to do this are not worthy to be his disciples. See Mark 8:34

 

[foundthelight]

You seem to be admitting that God has given you the free will to chose either eternal life in glory or eternal suffering. If this decision is of **your **will, then it is not of God. You, then, have taken an action to “earn” eternal life.

I posted this to make a point of what I percieve to be a logical flaw in an argument. Not because I believe it in that way.

 

[savedsinner]

I didn’t sidestep the issue. What you’re trying to do is build salvation doctrine on just a portion of Paul’s argument. Paul says to the self-righteous, religious Jew in Rom. 2:5:"But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,"In that “day” God will show no partiality toward Jew or Gentile. Paul goes on to say that both Jews and Greeks (Gentiles) are ALL UNDER SIN (3:9). This is Paul’s driving point in Romans chapters one and two. Amongst Jews and Greeks there are NONE righteous - “not even one” (Rom. 3:10). Hence, ALL are in need of righteousness:Rom 3:22 "even {the} righteousness of God (how?) through faith in Jesus Christ FOR all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"You see SS? Paul is driving home a point in Romans two about sin and divine judgment to make a doctrinal conclusion about salvation in Romans chapter three. His gospel (good news) of salvation is not found in Romans chapter two, but Romans three. You distort Paul’s gospel by stopping with chapter two and sidestepping the power of the cross to save sinners (through faith) - found in chapter three.

Well, is God going to judge people for there works, or not.

 

[MarcoPolo]

That is incorrect teaching its not through the church you are saved. Its through Jesus

One of our biggest challenges as Catholics is destroying this either/or fallacy that non-Catholics inevitably pose.

Any ideas on how to best explain that salvation through the Church IS salvation through Christ? I could probably come up with some stuff, but my eyes are tired right this second. :hypno:

 

[apophasis]

>>>>>Nevertheless, scripture says, Jesus Himself says in scripture, that we must do things to be saved. He tells the rich young man to keep the commandments to be saved, doesn’t He? Doesn’t He say of the saved and condemned that it was their works, when they comforted Him, sick, hungry, in prison, or did not so comfort Him, that was what they DID, EARNED them their eternal fate? Please answer without adding your interpretation about the motives or meaning of those He spoke to. Does scripture plainly say that or not? These are only examples, but there are more.<<<<<<<

In Matt. 25:37 Jesus said:*“Then the righteous will answer Him saying…”*The key phrase here is “the righteous.” It’s not the works that made them “righteous.” But it was “the righteous” that did the works: they fed, clothed and visited. “The righteous” is an identity and describes those who are “justified” (declared righteous) giftwise by faith (Rom. 3:24, 28).

Those “righteous” in Matt. 25 are also identified as “sheep.” Sheep in the N.T. are the saved, and one is saved “by grace through faith, …a gift of God…not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9). Those “sheep” in Matt. 25 did not become “sheep” as a “result” of their works. But as His sheep they heard His voice and obeyed Him (even though they were not literally commanded by Him to do the things they did. They even had to asked, "Lord, when did we feed You, give you something to drink, etc.).

I see. It says in scripture that we are saved by passive faith. This is like Luther adding the word alone to his translation to prove his doctrine.<<<<<<<<<<

Luther said “alone” because the text demands it. The faith that saves is passive because it trust/rest in the work of Another. Who, after He made purification of sins (via the cross) Himself “sat down” at the right hand of the Majesty on High (Heb. 3:3). The work of redemption was “finished.” The message has gone out for men to believe it for salvation. But, tragically, most men find such “grace” repugnant.

…who gives me the strength or power to obey Him. Can you be saved without obedience?

I’m not saved by the obedience of “works” but “the obedience of faith” (Rom. 1:5; 16: 25-27)Rom 1:16-17 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it {the} righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "but the righteous shall live live by faith."Does this mean “the righteous” don’t do works? God forbid. But it’s not the works that made them “the righteous.”

“You call me lord, lord and that is what I am, but if you do not DO the things I tell you, what good am I to you”.

They call Him lord, but He doesn’t call them His sheep. In fact, He exposes the fact that they are not.

Why would you say he was arrogant?

Because the Law was given to expose their utter sinfulness: “…that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh (fleshly), sold into the bondage of sin” (Rom. 7:13b-14). Only an arrogant man would say he kept the Law. Jesus exposed his failure to keep even the first commandment. His money was his god.

He gave commandments, to love God and neighbor.

Where does Jesus call the Ten Commandment “My commandments?”

Salvation is always "through faith."Never a reward.

This is what you say. Scripture says it is both.<<<<<<

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the GIFT OF GOD, not as a result of works (merit, hence not rewarded), that no one should boast."As stated previously, this doesn’t mean that the saved don’t/won’t do works. But it’s not through their works but rather through their faith (by grace) that God saved them - for Christ’s sake and to His glory.

What does Paul mean when he says he makes up in the sufferings of his flesh that which is lacking in the suffering of Christ for the sake of the Church?

Christ did the “work” of reconciliation through His suffering a sacrificial death on the cross. But the “word of reconciliation” was entrusted to men like Paul (2 Cor. 5:19). Paul, more than the others (2 Cor. 11:23-33), suffered in his body taking that word of reconciliation to the world and planting churches.

 

[apophasis]

foundthelight:

So. Are they “Works” or not?

If you think you can merit salvation through them, then, yes. But to that end they’re impotent.

 

[apophasis]

foundthelight:

You seem to be admitting that God has given you the free will to chose either eternal life in glory or eternal suffering. If this decision is of your will, then it is not of God. You, then, have taken an action to “earn” eternal life.

My choice is to believe or not believe. Upon my personal belief in the testimony of God concerning His Son (what He accomplished for me on the cross), God “gifted” me eternal life. I did not earn it:Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.It’s eternal because upon belief I received His life (the Son’s), being now “in Him” (2 Cor. 5:17)1 John 5:9-13 "If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, **so that you may know that you have eternal life.No, FTL, I cannot “earn” what is freely given upon true belief (Rom. 8:32; 1 Cor. 12:12; Eph. 1:6; cf. 1 Cor. 4:7).

Your choice, FTL, is to believe the testimony of men or the testimony of God. Which do you think is greater?**