What We Have Lost & the Road to Restoration

  • Thread starter Thread starter paramedicgirl
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Karin said:
http://www.stbernardblgs.org/IMG15.JPG
stbernardblgs.org/IMG15.JPG
Click to expand...
I was addressing that it says nowhere in the current that the altar should be a table, or that current altars replaced by them, or whatever.

Firstly it is not as if the traditional books never speak of the mensa of the altar. Secondly, if you think that this came about with the NO…Pius XII in the Assisi address stated that methods for preserving the altar and tabernacle but still allowing versus populum would be decided by “experts.” Three were proposed later: a tabernacle built into the front of the altar, a tabernacle suspended from a canopy like the hanging pyx, and placing another in front of the main altar. No guesses as to which one was deemed most feasible. This was later expanded in the interpretation of the 1957 Instruction: Bugsy wrote a commentary in Eph.Liturgicae in which it was specifically mentioned that a table may be used. So did McMannus in Worship. I do not have access to the article because the scan was sent to me and I deleted it, but you might be able to find it in a library there? Tables were deemed in line with legislation in force.

I’m (eagerly) anticipating the response by those who agreed with the statement of AnimaChristi-a nice comparison of the Divine service and the Mass from any missal after 1970.
 
marymonde said:
*"In like manner, after He had supped, taking also this excellent chalice into His holy and venerable hands, and giving thanks to Thee, He blessed and gave it to His disciples, saying: Take and drink ye all of this,

FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL TESTAMENT: THE MYSTERY OF FAITH*: WHICH SHALL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR MANY UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS.

As often as ye shall do these thing ye shall do them in remembrance of Me."

These words are from the Novus Ordo:

"Let us proclaim the mystery of faith;

Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again".

He most certainly has died, risen and will come again, no arguement there. But why would anyone utter these words, after Our Lord has been called down on the altar (table) by a priest, in His PRESENCE? It is tantamount to denying He is RIGHT there in front of us.

We could go on and on arguing about abuses, validity, etc. The most significant question for me is…“Am I worshipping and giving God the finest words, the finest contemplation of His sacrifice, the finest Holy Mass”?
Click to expand...
Actually the way it reads in Latin is not
“Mysterium fidei:” but “Mysterium fidei.”. Which hopefully is going to be fixed.

It is not tantamount to denying the Real Presence. Is it like that when the Mozarabic liturgy anounces while the priest elevates the Sacred Species about the Second Coming? Or any of the Antiochene liturgies? Or the Alexandrain ones like St. Basil? Would you purge out these references from after the Consecration in these liturgies?
 
Caesar said:
Knowing what Bishop Fabbro is like, it is more then likely that this was one of his ideas. And this is Canada, remember? We are the ones who use the Apostle’s Creed instead of the Nicene Creed and whose Bishops actualy voted to ignore Humanae Vitae.
Click to expand...
Not to blame them - the vast majority of Catholics have voted with their feet not to mention their ballots, against it as well.
 
What about that other ‘Mystery of Faith’ in the NO:

“When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup…”

Isnt that slighty problematic? We are not eating ‘bread’…
 
marymonde said:
Yes, like I said I have no argument that this is a truth, His second coming. In the ‘Ottaviani Intervention’ this is addressed by Cardinal Ottivianni and Cardinal Bacci. They said Our Lord’s true presence would be compromised by adding this phrase after the consecration. Here is some of the text:

fisheaters.com/ottavianiintervention.html
Click to expand...
Analyse some of what is said there in the light of the words in other liturgies (also here)

Edit: CatholicNick: see the links regarding the wording: and where it occurs elsewhere

I agree that “Mysterium fidei” is the English has a great potential to be misleading. Regarding the Latin, however, it does not have that “:” that link it to what follows. It is completely independent. The way I would see that is the priest confesses his belief in the mystery that has occurred. And the congregation acclaim it. That is the way it works in certain other liturgies also. It is also quite consistent with the archaeological approach of the NO, since many scholars say that mysterium fidei was the confession originally made by the deacon immediately after the Consecration of the chalice.
 
CatholicNick said:
What about that other ‘Mystery of Faith’ in the NO:

“When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup…”

Isnt that slighty problematic? We are not eating ‘bread’…
Click to expand...
No problem. If I recall rightly there are a number of places in Paul’s Epistles where he refers to the Eucharist as “bread” … and places in some of the other liturgies, if not the TLM (though I had thought it was there too) where it is in fact referred to in the prayers as bread even well after the Consecration.
 
Caesar said:
After I started going to the TLM regularly I decided to start recieving on the tongue all the time. When I went up to recieve during sunday Mass at the Cathedral I opened my mouth and the priest (whom I knew well) glared at me and gave me a blessing instead. After Mass I went and asked him why and he told me he only gives communion on the tongue to the old folks who wont have it any other way and that as a young man I should be recieving communion like everyone else my age- on the hand. He gave me a short lecture on why recieving in the hand is important. So now I dont recieve at the NO Masses I go to.
Click to expand...
:mad:
I am sorry that is all a blatant LIE!
You as a Catholic can recieve either in the hand or on the tongue…no matter how old or young!
Heck my 15y/o even recives on the tongue as do many other chlidren!
 
Tassitus Post 295:
Now where should one’s attention be drawn in this Mass?
Click to expand...
Worshipping in spirit and in truth, as Jesus stated In Jn.4:23. There can be little doubt that these men who put their lives on the line daily, never knowing if it will be their last hour on earth, are grateful beyond words to be able to celebrate the liturgy and receive their viaticum.

I believe that there are similar situations in those countries where being anything but Muslim or communist will get you a death sentence. We should ask these people how often they are privileged to hear mass, and where they would gladly go if it were even available to them.

Thanks for the reminder, Tassitus.

And as one poster said, and another seconded, may I add my “third” Amen to “frankly, I’m getting tired of hearing/seeing this whining”? Go in prayer and learn the Lord’s thoughts:

The Protestant lifts his heart in morning prayer…

The charismatic raises his arms in prayer…

The Catholic gives thanks in prayer for his new day…

The traditionist prays and says, I’m glad I’m not one like them, and when will you give me back my rights…😦

Whom does the Lord hear?
 
paramedicgirl said:
I asked my No priest what was meant by Christ will come again, when He is actually already present on the altar. He said it refers to the second coming. Does that make sense to anyone here?
Click to expand...
makes perfect sense!
AnnieD said:
In our town, an 80 year old woman would kneel to receive Holy Communion, and she was told she couldn’t do that anymore because she would be bringing attention to herself and when she tried to do it again, the Priest told her she couldn’t go to the church anymore.

The sad thing is, that most people just go along with what the Priests say, they don’t check into the validity of the Priest’s statements and arguments.

:amen:
Annie
Click to expand...
:eek: that is wrong in so many ways…
Joysong said:
And as one poster said, and another seconded, may I add my “third” Amen to “frankly, I’m getting tired of hearing/seeing this whining”? Go in prayer and learn the Lord’s thoughts:

The Protestant lifts his heart in morning prayer…

The charismatic raises his arms in prayer…

The Catholic gives thanks in prayer for his new day…

The traditionist prays and says, I’m glad I’m not one like them, and when will you give me back my rights…😦

Whom does the Lord hear?
Click to expand...
He listens to all…🙂
The Catholic (traditionist, charismatic etc.) that gives thanks in prayer for his new day…
 
Joysong said:
, and when will you give me back my rights…😦
Click to expand...
you know if you are happy with the Mass/Parish/Priest in your Church…Great. If you dont see abuses even better!

But you know what joysong…not all of us have been so lucky…and if that makes us want/earn for the things that we have lost/missing that is our right!

I used to belong to a Parish that you would of liked…they held hands:eek: no bells on the altar, used EMHC, female altar servers etc. Let me add that when I joined this Parish I was not Catholic. I left Mass every week with a feeling that something was not right…that something was missing…it took me awhile to figure it out, 3years to be exact and many missed Masses, that there was another type of Parish out there for me. One that would leave me whole and fufilled…one that feed my every need…I finally found that Parish…it was a long search but well worth it. The first Mass i attended at the new parish left me in tears…tears of joy, that I finally got it …the “it” being what my soul/heart demanded…I finally felt whole (in body and spirit)…doesn;t everyone deserve that? I think everyone does! Or should be just settle for what they get? I guess some are ok for settling I am not one of them…not when my “whole” person deserves better then settling!

“Teach nothing new, but implant in the hearts of everyone those things which the fathers of venerable memory taught with a uniform preaching … Whence, we preach nothing except what we have received from our forefathers. In all things, therefore, both in the rule of faith in the observance of discipline, let the pattern of antiquity be observed.” – Pope St. Leo the Great, Father and Doctor of the Church

The true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but men of tradition." – Pope St. Pius X
 
palmas85 said:
But they do Kirk, they do.
Click to expand...
of my udnerstanding the poster in question had not been accpeted into the CHurch yet…so to be denied communion is correct…she went up for a blessing and was denied the blessing…(which I see no issue with…wait a few mintues and everyone gets blessed by the Priest).

TO be a member of the Church and be denied communion becuase you kneel is WRONG!
 
157:
Is something so big that it can’t be discussed?
Yes, it may well cause rancor and divisions but the divisions stay and get bigger when people refuse to discuss other’s concerns.If the concerns in this video are not discussed, the fester and grow larger.
Click to expand...
Some must believe the readers are blind not to see the agenda in posting thread after thread about the TLM, including shock-and-awe videos promoting an agenda to have it restored … not just through a universal indult, but “restored” a/k/a eliminating the N.O.

No matter how many viewpoints are presented, the questions are resubmitted in such a manner as though these questions were asked for the first time; yet this constant “discussing” underscores the proselytizing hidden under the pretense. [My opinion]
Paramedicgirl's Blog:
And “What We Have Lost” is about hope. Hope in Jesus Christ and His one true Church on earth. Plus it’s about the restoration of the traditional Latin Mass and the “Faith of our Fathers;”
Click to expand...
To use an example, it is as though some might have an agenda against drunk driving, due to seeing articles where people have died in DUI-related accidents. They might open a blog that cars be removed from the highway and reinstate the horse and buggy, for there were never any problems with the good old days. Nobody would disagree with the logic that out of billions of drivers, a “few” on occasion cause accidents. Nobody would fail to have compassion.

Similarly, nobody I have seen anywhere on this forum fails to have a sense of pain when the liturgy is abused, but it is here to stay. The ludicrous solution is to reinstate the TLM and eliminate the N.O. through continual propaganda presenting the abuse as a norm … just as it would be ludicrous to post thread after thread about the terrible drunk drivers. Yes, make efforts to correct the problem, but don’t forbid all others to drive their cars and suggest they are abusive as well, lumping them in with the small minority.
 
anamchara said:
Annie has been on these forums long enough, I’m sure she has seen them or things similar, I know I have as well.

I do agree that there is a sadness to what has been lost and I too wish we would regain some of the older reverance paramed, this is why I’m working on bringing a more traditional Altar server ministry to my own parish. I fully promote bringing back many things of old and my priest is wonderful about this. But this video is way over the top as others have pointed the reasons and I agree with.

I don’t have issues with the NO nor do I with the TLM but I feel we need to find a balance and stop with all this exaggerations which is causing terrible rancor among Catholics. We are suppose to be a family. Although I realize all brothers and sisters fight…so I guess that’s what is happening here…I just don’t think our Father is very happy about it 😦
Click to expand...
(Response to bolded) That is good to hear! 🙂 (I could’ve sworn that I read in one of your posts in another thread not too long ago that you were promoting female altar servers in your parish?)
 
Some must believe the readers are blind not to see the agenda in posting thread after thread about the TLM, including shock-and-awe videos promoting an agenda to have it restored … not just through a universal indult, but “restored” a/k/a eliminating the N.O.

No matter how many viewpoints are presented, the questions are resubmitted in such a manner as though these questions were asked for the first time; yet this constant “discussing” underscores the proselytizing hidden under the pretense. [My opinion]
Click to expand...
ya know I would be somewhat content just to see a more revernt NO preformed in ALL CHURCHs…not just in a select few. just my opinion.😉
Some must also believe that all the readers are blind not to see that there is no agenda…just honest concern for the abuses that we see…(just my opinion)
 
Karin said:
of my udnerstanding the poster in question had not been accpeted into the CHurch yet…so to be denied communion is correct…she went up for a blessing and was denied the blessing…(which I see no issue with…wait a few mintues and everyone gets blessed by the Priest).

TO be a member of the Church and be denied communion becuase you kneel is WRONG!
Click to expand...
No, that is not what happened, iam a baptized Catholic, and my marriage was not blessed so i could not receive communion. instead, i was allowed to receive a blessing. i wanted to kneel for the blessing, and did, but after the mass, the priest took me aside and asked me not to kneel for it because it was a distraction.
 
Marilena said:
No, that is not what happened, iam a baptized Catholic, and my marriage was not blessed so i could not receive communion. instead, i was allowed to receive a blessing. i wanted to kneel for the blessing, and did, but after the mass, the priest took me aside and asked me not to kneel for it because it was a distraction.
Click to expand...
:o Sorry…I got confused…that happens alot lately:o …
 
Joysong said:
Some must believe the readers are blind not to see the agenda in posting thread after thread about the TLM, including shock-and-awe videos promoting an agenda to have it restored … not just through a universal indult, but “restored” a/k/a eliminating the N.O.

No matter how many viewpoints are presented, the questions are resubmitted in such a manner as though these questions were asked for the first time; yet this constant “discussing” underscores the proselytizing hidden under the pretense. [My opinion]

To use an example, it is as though some might have an agenda against drunk driving, due to seeing articles where people have died in DUI-related accidents. They might open a blog that cars be removed from the highway and reinstate the horse and buggy, for there were never any problems with the good old days. Nobody would disagree with the logic that out of billions of drivers, a “few” on occasion cause accidents. Nobody would fail to have compassion.

Similarly, nobody I have seen anywhere on this forum fails to have a sense of pain when the liturgy is abused, but it is here to stay. The ludicrous solution is to reinstate the TLM and eliminate the N.O. through continual propaganda presenting the abuse as a norm … just as it would be ludicrous to post thread after thread about the terrible drunk drivers. Yes, make efforts to correct the problem, but don’t forbid all others to drive their cars and suggest they are abusive as well, lumping them in with the small minority.
Click to expand...
why are you quoting my sisters blog in this? exactly what does that have to do with this video? did you ask my sister permission to quote from her blog? when quoting from any blog or site, do you not need permission to do so? i’d think so.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top