Who are the protesters behind Occupy Wall Street–and what do they want?

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louis91766 said:
I thought that they were all left wing communists. Now we are told that they are all right wing fascists?
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Communists and fascists are both left wing ideologies. One is international socialism, the other is national socialism. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.
 
Scott_Lafrance said:
Communists and fascists are both left wing ideologies. One is international socialism, the other is national socialism. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.
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Even Stormfront recognizes that National Socialism is a form of socialism, but we won’t go there.😉

This one proves to be a more informative read.
mises.org/daily/1937
 
estesbob said:
The Nazi party was a left wing organization. The ideav that Facism is " right wing" based on the liberal mantra that" all thing evil spring from the right wing , nazis were evil therefore Naziism is right wing." Goldberg eloquently lays out how the Left has propagated this myth aided by a compliant media
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Goldberg is just a apopletic guy who, after some liberals called hima fascist, got angry and wrote a book filled with nonsense about how the people who called him a fascist were in fact fascists. It’s nothing but childish name0calling, back and forth.

This whole myth about fascism being left wing is nothing more than that. Conservatives get upset because someone calls them fascists, and so they try to ‘turn the tables.’ Bottom line is, though, it is just nonsense. You can’t even posit an argument. You just keep saying it over and over again, but it simply isn’t true.

Hitler liked animals and usually didn’t eat meat, one of his cohorts was a gay guy (Roehm, of course, was murdered by the Nazis as well), and that’s pretty much the summation of the argument. But will you extend the generaliztio to its logical conclusion? Are all vegetarians therefore Nazis? All gay people? Surely, all gay vegetarians are Nazis, no?

Or what else is there. Nazi econmic theory? Two things: 1) Nazi economic policies aren’ty the reason they were evil, nor is their love of a nimals. Those are accidental similarities. That is all Goldberg has, accidental similarities. Of course, even their economic poliicies were not remotely right wing by German standards (conservative Chancellor Bismarck, recall, instituted the first Germa (first ever, actually) universal healthcare program; there are no Tea Partiers in Germany; even conservatives are generally not opposed to social programs). The Nazis abolished labor unions, reduced wages, increased hours, and removed all collective bargaining power from unions. Left wing, huh?

The reason the Nazis are considered evil, contrary to what Goldberg apparently thinks, is not because of animal rights, or because a couple were gay; it is because they were ultra-racist, hyper-nationalist, militarists.
 
Scott_Lafrance said:
Communists and fascists are both left wing ideologies. One is international socialism, the other is national socialism. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.
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The Nazis were not socialst! “Oh, well, socialism was in their name…” So what! To the extent that National Socialism is socialist, the Nazis were not very good Nazis.

This is ridiculous! DId all you guys just read Jonah Goldberg’s book then poke your eyes out so you would never have misfortune of reading another that exposited a different (correct) view?
 
estesbob said:
As always you inability to grasp the differernce between marignal rates and effective rates makes discussing it with you impossible
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So you basically dispute that when your own conservative standard bearer reagan took office in 1981, upper bracket individual taxrates were twice as high as they are now?

Today’s rate of 35% is half that of 1981’s 70% rate, regardless of how thick your glasses are.

Yet reagan almost tripled our natnl debt crying the Russians are coming, and I, luke skywalker reagan must build a star wars defense shield very quickly, before they embarrass me by imploding in on themselves, while I, luke skywalker reagan am trying to sell America on how imminently dangerous those sophisticated communist russians can be.

Ah yes, I remember well.

jomoco
 
Darryl1958 said:
Even Stormfront recognizes that National Socialism is a form of socialism, but we won’t go there.😉

This one proves to be a more informative read.
mises.org/daily/1937
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Socialism is not necessarily left wing. Otto von Bismarck was not left wing, but he instituted plenty of policies that the Tea Party would surely call Marxist or socialist.
 
Raskolnikov said:
The Nazis were not socialst! “Oh, well, socialism was in their name…” So what! To the extent that National Socialism is socialist, the Nazis were not very good Nazis.

This is ridiculous! DId all you guys just read Jonah Goldberg’s book then poke your eyes out so you would never have misfortune of reading another that exposited a different (correct) view?
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Who is Jonah Goldberg and why should I care?

I did read Three New Deals: Reflections on Roosevelt’s America, Mussolini’s Italy, and Hitler’s Germany by Wolfgang Schivelbusch, a noted German historian. “Naziism” is socialism, pure and simple, a totalitarian left wing politico-economic ideology.
 
Occupy Wall Street is made up of a lot of groups. American Nazi Party is just the newest group to link arms with Occupy Wall Street. This isn’t they only anti-semitism part of the group. Adbusters registered the domain name occupywallstreet.org on June 9, 2011. In 2004 Adbusters magazine entitled “Why won’t anyone say they are Jewish?” libcom.org/library/anti-semitism-adbusters-2004 Ayatollah Ali Khamenei also supports Occupy Wall Street.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/12/iran-us-protests-topple-capitalism?newsfeed=true. It’s odd that all these group are against capitalism also happen to be anti-semitic. Makes you wonder what all these groups see in the Occupy Wall Street movement.
 
louis91766 said:
This is all vague, wishy washy and up in the air. You said that there is a company where people can make $150 per day and it turns out that you don’t know the address of the company, and you don’t even know their telephone number.
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louis, please don’t misquote me. Here is what I said:

“Did you know that the going rate for picking apples in the orchards of eastern Washington is $150/day?” I based that on a newspaper article that I linked to. Where I come from, the person looking for work has to do the actual footwork to get the job. But atleast I pointed out an actual, legitimate way to earn money. $150/day is decent money.
louis91766 said:
So you want people to travel all across the country looking for a needle in a haystack or a pot of $150 at the end of a rainbow? By the time they find out where the place is, the rainbow will be gone. And who is going to pay for the hotel bills, meals and transportation?
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Who pays for the hotel bills, meals and transportation for the illegals who come up to Washington from Mexico to pick fruit? Figure it out.
louis91766 said:
I tented out one time and the police came by,screaming outside the tent and threatening to arrest me for illegal tenting out.
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I’m sure that there are designated shelter areas or tents or even cabins for those picking the fruit. I don’t think the pickers sleep out in the city park - although if you’re a protester you might feel more comfortable sleeping in the city park.
louis91766 said:
And of course, you don’t mention that the state of Washington is one of the most rainy states in the USA. I don’t think you care if people get soaking wet tenting out in the rain and develop influenzsa.
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Louis, they grow the apples in the eastern side of the state, where its sunny most of the time. They have to irrigate the orchards, otherwise they would’nt grow. If you go to eastern washington you’ll be wondering why they call it the “evergreen state”. The rain falls in the west side of the state. That is why Washington is the leading exporter of apples, and its a record crop this year. Alas, not enough pickers. If you go I would pack some warm clothing though - it can get pretty cold at night this time of year. 🙂

Ishii
 
nathan_oc said:
Occupy Wall Street is made up of a lot of groups. American Nazi Party is just the newest group to link arms with Occupy Wall Street. This isn’t they only anti-semitism part of the group. Adbusters registered the domain name occupywallstreet.org on June 9, 2011. In 2004 Adbusters magazine entitled “Why won’t anyone say they are Jewish?” libcom.org/library/anti-semitism-adbusters-2004 Ayatollah Ali Khamenei also supports Occupy Wall Street.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/12/iran-us-protests-topple-capitalism?newsfeed=true. It’s odd that all these group are against capitalism also happen to be anti-semitic. Makes you wonder what all these groups see in the Occupy Wall Street movement.
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Hatred of the capitalist banking system and hatred of the Jew have strong historical ties to each other.
rense.com/general67/democracyisanillusion.htm
 
Raskolnikov said:
Let me guess. You read Jonah Goldberg’s polemic about how liberals are fascists? Really, at least read a real history book if you’re going to make claims about it. Racial supremacism, nationaslist militarism, revanchism, hyper-colonialism, and almost every other tenet of Fascism, are not remotely left-wing. Historically, a few were right wing though.

So here it is, the Hitler was a vegetarian who liked animals, and the Nazis wanted “big government” (that makes them mroe in line with the American right, though, most of that “big government” was going to be in the defense area.)

Simply put, it is offensive to all the left-wingers who were shipped off to die in Dachau (the very first people the Nazis sought to eradicate, yous hould recall) to imply that they were of like mind with the people who slaughered them. Who knows, maybe some of you think comunists deserved to get gassed though. Wouldn’t surprise me on this forum.
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That the Nazi’s sought to eradicate the communists is not proof that Nazism is not a leftist ideology. Leftists have fought and killed each other for years. Its about power. Stalin routinely slaughtered other leftists in order to consolidate his hold on power. Remember it was Stalin who ordered the killing of Trotsky. The left will do anything for the cause, anything if they think it will advance history - even if it means killing their own.

Ishii
 
nathan_oc said:
Occupy Wall Street is made up of a lot of groups. American Nazi Party is just the newest group to link arms with Occupy Wall Street. This isn’t they only anti-semitism part of the group. Adbusters registered the domain name occupywallstreet.org on June 9, 2011. In 2004 Adbusters magazine entitled “Why won’t anyone say they are Jewish?” libcom.org/library/anti-semitism-adbusters-2004 Ayatollah Ali Khamenei also supports Occupy Wall Street.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/12/iran-us-protests-topple-capitalism?newsfeed=true. It’s odd that all these group are against capitalism also happen to be anti-semitic. Makes you wonder what all these groups see in the Occupy Wall Street movement.
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Again, people have no say in who voices support for them. Not long ago white supremacists donated money to Ron Paul’s reelection campaign. Did that make Ron Paul a white supremacist. Certainly not. He can’t control who supports him. He could return the donation, but that’s another discussion.

Suffice it to say that your claim that all the OWS people are anti-Semites is ludicrous. The reason the neo-Nazis are ‘anti-Wall St.’ is because they want to overthrow the liberal democratic states and replace it with an authoritarian white nationalist one. The OWS people, needless to say, do not appear to be of the same mind.
 
SamH said:
They should have thought of that before they borrowed $50K to get a degree in an area that would enable them to pay off a $50K loan. My first job out of college paid less than the job I held during college - I literally took a pay cut at graduation to work in my field of study. It took three years before I earned more in my “professional” career than had I have stayed working my hourly job. But because I was working I didn’t have time to go hang out at Wall Street to complain that the high paying job I was expecting hadn’t appeared at career day.
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One of the things that today’s youth are not being prepared for is the fact that the world has changed, and is continuing to change. Vocations and careers that were in high demand four years ago when they started school may have completely tanked, or ceased to exist altogether.

Who here (over the age of 50) remembers being told, study business administration and apply for the typing pool. There will always be jobs in the typing pool.

Is there anyone under the age of 30 who even knows what a typing pool is? Probably not, unless they happen to watch really old detective movies.

Today’s youth need to take degrees that will allow them to be flexible. They can’t see their college career as a kind of overpriced job training, any more. They have to take courses that teach them how to think, and how to be creative. Ironically, the kid who’s majoring in basket weaving and poetry may well have a better shot at a job at the end of it than the kid who is taking computer programming and business administration, since the basket weaving poet is learning to adapt himself on the fly to changing situations, and to respond creatively to the unexpected, whereas the computer programmer/business administrator is going to be out of date and obsolete pretty much the day after he graduates - his programming languages will be out of use within six months of him learning them, and his business practices will have been proven ineffective in less time than that, so he will be completely unemployable, whereas the basket weaving poet will at least be able to busk at the train station until he gets his fancy basket store off the ground.
 
ishii said:
That the Nazi’s sought to eradicate the communists is not proof that Nazism is not a leftist ideology. Leftists have fought and killed each other for years. Its about power. Stalin routinely slaughtered other leftists in order to consolidate his hold on power. Remember it was Stalin who ordered the killing of Trotsky. The left will do anything for the cause, anything if they think it will advance history - even if it means killing their own.

Ishii
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True enough. Rightist (supposedly Christian) monarchists massacred each other for centuries for mony and power. They too thought they were advancing history by genociding their enemies. Not a trait particular to one side of the political spectrum at all.

But you are quite wrong here. Why did the other right wing parties join forces with this supposedly left wing party that sought to eradicate all “other” far left ideologies and establish an authoritarian anti-demicratic racialist state that the “other” leftists (most of whom were social democrats) opposed?

I have still yety to see an argument in defense of this indefensible position that Nazis were left winger.

And I have to say, I am actually rather appalled. Having visited Dachau myself and seen the very chambers in which many of these people were slaughtered because they opposed the rightist authoritarian racial state died horrible deaths as part of a power struggle between self-interested demagogues is just idiotic and preposterous. Why anyone would try put these victims of Naziism in the same category as Hitler is just beyond me. we might just as well reduce the holocaust to an ethnic feud between jews and Germans. Just ludicrous.
 
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