Who can deny that the evils in this world help to separate us from God?

[Bookcat]

If John 12:25 was in any way ambiguous, I wholeheartedly agree with you. But it’s as clear as can be and is consistent with many other sources that I listed previously.

Correct it it is not ambigous - it means what the Pope and the Scholars say it means…the is how the original audience would have understood it!!

Not in the way your suggesting in your private - 21st century reading of an English Translation.

Read my post again.

That verse even contains the part about ones hating ones life!

Luke 14: 26 is:

"If any one comes to me and does not hate** his own father** and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."

ewtn.com/v/bible/search_bible.asp

So I must* hate* not only my life but my wife.…and my mother and father and children…

(in that face value way…)

If Luke

intended it to have a different meaning, he would certainly have said so. If we cannot take this passage at face value, then we should not take anything else that … wrote at its face value…

(As I noted above - such is* not* what Jesus or John or Luke meant - see Pope Benedict XVI- such use of “hate” was a* semitic expression*.)

 

[jcrichton]

Are you trying to say that we are as united to Christ here in this world as we will be at His Second Coming? Yes, Christ does love us here in this world and nothing can separate us from that love, but our being loved by Christ here in this world does not compare to the experience of fully knowing Him and our fully loving Him, which the evils in this world prevent.

If we are currently fully united to Christ, why the need for His Second Coming.

I suggest you re-read the passage of scripture you just quoted to see what it really implies.

Hi, Robert!

…there are some who believe that when Jesus stated that the Father is Stronger than He that that meant that the Son is somehow subservient to the Father–creating, in effect, a ranking level in God… some also believe that when Jesus stated that nothing could take the sheep from the Father’s Hand that that meant that “those sheep” can never lose their “Salvation;” clearly an erroneous conclusion because they fail to understand that Jesus never stated that the sheep cannot abandon the security found in the Father’s Hand.

Your argument is that evil can separate us from God; that argument is wrong. Nothing can separate us from God. Yet, this absolute is only in the sense that God’s Might cannot be thwarted; yet, since we have freewill, we can in deed separate ourselves from God.

Hence, placing fault on evil as the agent of our failure is a misunderstanding. The fault is ours since it is our own divisiveness that separates us from God:

14 Everyone who is tempted is attracted and seduced by his own wrong desire. 15 Then the desire conceives and gives birth to sin, and when sin is fully grown, it too has a child, and the child is death. 16 Make no mistake about this, my dear brothers: 17 it is all that is good, everything that is perfect, which is given us from above; it comes down from the Father of all light; with him there is no such thing as alteration, no shadow of a change. 18 By his own choice he made us his children by the message of the truth so that we should be a sort of first-fruits of all that he had created.

(St. James 1:14-18)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Doesnt the church officially state "it is a great mystery why purity allows the diabolical’…meaning, it is a complete mystery why God permits satan to do the things he does in our world.

I cannot recall when this was said or by whom, but I have heard it somewhere, and thought it came from the church or a past pope maybe…?

I do not think anyone can argue that evil in this world is trying to lead as many of us away from God as possible, its very obvious to me and Id imagine it goes much much deeper than most of us can even recognize, its probable the most subtle evil one can think of, has very severe implications in the long run.

Evils greatest success was to kind of change the definition of ‘evil/immoral’, if something is constantly being shown in a positive/ good light, well eventually most people are going to believe just that.

Hi, Mike!

…yet, the fact that evil exist does not make man commit to evil.

We have freewill.

We can choose to embrace God and reject evil or we can choose to embrace evil.

Evil in itself has not the power to keep/take us from God. We surrender our will to evil and that is how we are separated/kept from God.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Are you saying that Satan does not tempt all of us into committing evil while we are in this world?

No matter how much we may want it to happen, we cannot be fully united to God while living in this world. Therefore, our free will must be somehow limited. This only goes to show that the evil in this world, wherever it may exist, must separate us from God.

As for these bodies being evil, let me state that compared to our glorified bodies at the Second Coming, these bodies are loathsome at best. Similarly, as far as the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak, these bodies must somehow have inferiorities that do not allow us to be fully united to God in this world no matter how hard we try.

Hi, Robert!

No one is arguing about the limits of our temporal existence… what is being said is that though evil exists, and though man is finite and vulnerable, it is not evil that keeps man from God; man chooses to keep himself from God.

…as I am responding to this thread Father Mitch Pacwa is speaking on the evil of abortion and sex selection–he stated that in China there are now around 40 million men who will not be able to marry a woman because of China’s “one child” practice and the evil that followed where female children were aborted or abandoned in favor of a male child… this evil then produced a tangent evil as the sex industry would provide these wifeless men with women… this in turn produced another evil: kidnapping of women and infant girls to be used in sex/human trafficking… in each case it is man’s determination to embrace evil that cause his separation from God.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I don’t think it’s stupid at all, but a logical conclusion of John 12:25

He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

Hi, RC!

…yes; the relationship, though, is God.

Does Jesus say “hate” without really directing/explaining this “hate?”

…here’s one example He gave:

28 So now, take the talent from him and give it to the man who has the five talents. 29 For to everyone who has will be given more, and he will have more than enough; but from the man who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 As for this good-for-nothing servant, throw him out into the dark, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.”

(St. Matthew 25:28-30)
Jesus did not Command to hate the industrious servants that worked for the Kingdom; Jesus Commanded that the lazy/worthless servant be removed from His Presence.

“Hate,” Jesus Commands, that which keeps/separates you from God!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

The best joys we can experience in this world are not worldly pleasures, but the many graces from God.

Hi, Robert!

Now you’ve separated the shine from the Shinola!

Yes!

This is what “hate” means.

“Hate” that which keeps/separates from God.

It does not mean hate life or the world… it means hate that which in life/world keeps/separates you from God!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Robert_Sock]

Hi, Robert!

No one is arguing about the limits of our temporal existence… what is being said is that though evil exists, and though man is finite and vulnerable, it is not evil that keeps man from God; man chooses to keep himself from God.

…as I am responding to this thread Father Mitch Pacwa is speaking on the evil of abortion and sex selection–he stated that in China there are now around 40 million men who will not be able to marry a woman because of China’s “one child” practice and the evil that followed where female children were aborted or abandoned in favor of a male child… this evil then produced a tangent evil as the sex industry would provide these wifeless men with women… this in turn produced another evil: kidnapping of women and infant girls to be used in sex/human trafficking… in each case it is man’s determination to embrace evil that cause his separation from God.

Maran atha!

Angel

When we say the Rosary and come to the Hail Holy Queen prayer, do we not explicitly admit that we are currently living in exile? What else could this exile implicate other than our being somehow separated from God? And how could this separation from God not be considered an evil?

 

[LilyM]

When we say the Rosary and come to the Hail Holy Queen prayer, do we not explicitly admit that we are currently living in exile? What else could this exile implicate other than our being somehow separated from God? And how could this separation from God not be considered an evil?

We are frequently taught that God permits evil so that good may come out if it. The expression “O happy fault” - used in Easter services - comes to mind. We can certainly love the good that comes out even of the evils of this world.

I gave an earlier example of the Dalai Lama as a person in exile who is joyful even while keenly conscious of that exile. Has that exile not resulted in anything good or praiseworthy? Is not the Dalai Lama’s ceaseless campaigning for human rights - unnecessary had his own not been so horribly abused - a good worth celebrating?

 

[Robert_Sock]

We are frequently taught that God permits evil so that good may come out if it. The expression “O happy fault” - used in Easter services - comes to mind. We can certainly love the good that comes out even of the evils of this world.

I gave an earlier example of the Dalai Lama as a person in exile who is joyful even while keenly conscious of that exile. Has that exile not resulted in anything good or praiseworthy? Is not the Dalai Lama’s ceaseless campaigning for human rights - unnecessary had his own not been so horribly abused - a good worth celebrating?

Yes, and as I said before, I’m personally very joyful and optimistic towards the Hereafter, but as for our loving our actually being in exile, separated from our creator, I think we would be sadistic to love this exile. So much pain and suffering surround us! So much war and crime! So much vanity!

Speaking for myself, I listen to music, classical music with much gregorian chant and Masses, but that’s about the only worldly thing that I can extract pleasure from. Nothing else is the least bit pleasurable to me anymore. Looking back on my life, it mostly looks like vanity. Nothing motivates me but studying religion, talking to and praying for my daughter and granddaughter, and looking forward to Heaven. I live in solitude and I believe I’m not allowed to seek any consolation from anybody but God.

The wisest thing I do is to donate to charity even though rents have gone sky-high where I live and I live at the poverty level. The dumbest thing I do is spend time on the Internet, including this forum, when I should be praying and preparing my soul for the Hereafter that I pray I’m able to enter ASAP.

I know there are many cold hearted people on this forum who will try to criticize me for what I believe and who I have become, but be it as it may, this is me and I believe I’m serving God the best that I can. I’m not an angry person by any means, and I often feel peace and calm, and I’m willing to stay in this world until God calls me home.

I’m not suggesting that anybody else should live like me, and I do not condemn those who do not, but I believe there is a heuristic value in sharing this with people on this forum, and I hope that at least some find some value in it!

 

[Robert_Sock]

Correct it it is not ambigous - it means what the Pope and the Scholars say it means…the is how the original audience would have understood it!!

Not in the way your suggesting in your private - 21st century reading of an English Translation.

Read my post again.

That verse even contains the part about ones hating ones life!

So I must* hate* not only my life but my wife.…and my mother and father and children…

(in that face value way…)

If Luke

(As I noted above - such is* not* what Jesus or John or Luke meant - see Pope Benedict XVI- such use of “hate” was a* semitic expression*.)

If there’s a problem with the translation of these passages, why is Pope Benedict XVI the first translator to notice it? I personally view the passage of hating our loved ones the same way I view John 12:25: that we should hate their life in this world, which is actually our love for them. Note that Christ does not mention that we should hate their soul or personhood.

 

[Bookcat]

When we say the Rosary and come to the Hail Holy Queen prayer, do we not explicitly admit that we are currently living in exile? What else could this exile implicate other than our being somehow separated from God?

Yes sure.

“When the Letter to the Hebrews says that Christians here on earth do not have a permanent homeland, but seek one which lies in the future (cf. Heb 11:13-16; Phil 3:20), this does *not *mean for one moment that they live only for the future: present society is recognized by Christians as an exile; they belong to a new society which is the goal of their common pilgrimage and which is anticipated in the course of that pilgrimage.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI

Encyclical Spe Salvi (emp added)

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi.html

The goal is already “anticipated in the course of the Pilgrimage”.

We are indeed an be said to be in “exile”-- pilgrims on the way to our destination.

But already we share in that destination - we already have the “first firsts” the “down payment” …we already share in the life of Christ - his death and resurrection. We already are temples of the Holy Spirit. We will yes possess God more fully and know the joys of Heaven and later of the Resurrection - when we arrive at the goal of our pilgrimage. Yes we look forward to Heaven…and indeed we forward to the Resurrection!

But too we already are “in Christ” …we can already “Rejoice in the Lord” (which does not have to involve an emotions" …and “walk in the Spirit” as Paul has told us.

God is with us. The Holy Trinity dwells within the soul who is in the State of Grace.

And as the Great Doctor of the Church - St. Catherine of Siena has noted - *all the way to heaven is heaven for Christ is the way.
*

 

[Robert_Sock]

Nothing there is “slanderous”. Initially because it is obviously my opinion based on your long posting history of “wishing for death” and “finding only evil in this world” which God himself found “good”. Next, because it is also entirely based on true facts which you yourself have posted. Finally, because it is in fact gnostic.

You completely misread my intentions. I have never “belittled” you and never would intentionally do so. I want only the best for you and have repeatedly advised, begged, requested, prayed, and pled for you to seek out a spiritual director. I have done so because based on my five years of seminary training in preparation for ordination, I have found spiritual direction is an absolute requirement for anyone seeking a deeper relationship with God, which you obviously do seek.

I appreciate your most recent post in which for the first time you state: "I’m not suggesting that anybody else should live like me, and I do not condemn those who do not, but I believe there is a heuristic value in sharing this with people on this forum, and I hope that at least some find some value in it! " However that has not been the tone of your many repeated threads on this topic, and my intention in responding has been twofold: 1. to repeatedly ask you (as said above) to seek the guidance of someone with training in spiritual direction for your own wellbeing; and 2. to caution readers that your viewpoint should not be taken as a general norm for the vast majority of us that live in the world. If you believe that is “coldhearted”, you have misread my posts.

As a deacon I have a duty to teach and to correct error when I see it. As a knight of Malta I have made a promise to “defend the faith” (See my signature line). I can do no less.

Saying that I have a “death wish” is something that many people would view negatively as if I was somehow suicidal. It would have been much more accurate if you quoted me accurately by saying I look forward to being to being united with my Creator ASAP. The fact is that I’m willing to stay in this world until God calls me, just like most other Catholics. And you persistently claim that I misinterpret scriptures without explaining how, or which ones, which is a gross overstatement. Why not actually spell things out truthfully, as they are, and actually contribute to the thread?
[/quote]

 

[Bookcat]

If there’s a problem with the translation of these passages, why is Pope Benedict XVI the first translator to notice it? I personally view the passage of hating our loved ones the same way I view John 12:25: that we should hate their life in this world, which is actually our love for them. Note that Christ does not mention that we should hate their soul or personhood.

It is not a problem with translation!

A literal translation is just that.

As such it cannot though bring across from one language to another all the other language carries in meaning.

Pope Benedict is* not *translating it but explaining it.

And NO he is* not* the first to explain this - it is all over the place in works of Biblical Commentaries and Scripture Scholars etc.

Jesus says there in the writing of Luke:

“If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.”

He does not say “we should hate their life in this world” – no no no - he says if one does not hate them -* does not hate* - “his own father and mother and wife and children”. The hate is directed at them personally. (and "Mother and Father and wife and Children …includes the whole person - soul too-- there is no mother without a soul).

That is the “face value”…in modern English…

-------------------------------\

Now how are such to be really understood?

(As you can now see - that is not that way. We end up with wrong conclusions.)

That has been explained above in quoting Pope Benedict XVI.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Yes sure.

“When the Letter to the Hebrews says that Christians here on earth do not have a permanent homeland, but seek one which lies in the future (cf. Heb 11:13-16; Phil 3:20), this does *not *mean for one moment that they live only for the future: present society is recognized by Christians as an exile; they belong to a new society which is the goal of their common pilgrimage and which is anticipated in the course of that pilgrimage.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI

Encyclical Spe Salvi (emp added)

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi.html

The goal is already “anticipated in the course of the Pilgrimage”.

We are indeed an be said to be in “exile”-- pilgrims on the way to our destination.

But already we share in that destination - we already have the “first firsts” the “down payment” …we already share in the life of Christ - his death and resurrection. We already are temples of the Holy Spirit. We will yes possess God more fully and know the joys of Heaven and later of the Resurrection - when we arrive at the goal of our pilgrimage. Yes we look forward to Heaven…and indeed we forward to the Resurrection!

But too we already are “in Christ” …we can already “Rejoice in the Lord” (which does not have to involve an emotions" …and “walk in the Spirit” as Paul has told us.

God is with us. The Holy Trinity dwells within the soul who is in the State of Grace.

And as the Great Doctor of the Church - St. Catherine of Siena has noted - *all the way to heaven is heaven for Christ is the way.
*

Yes, there is good in this world, and I guess it’s OK to love this life to that extent, but the New Testament does explicitly emphasize that we should love this life, only that we should highly value Christ, especially His death and resurrection for the salvation of the world, along with the rest of the Trinity. But I honestly believe that loving this life is dangerous in that it’s so easy to also love all the folly and vanity that exists in this world. I still greatly prefer the Church to emphasize and explain the multitude of reasons why we should hate this life using the many Christian sources that point to this fact.

 

[Robert_Sock]

[/quote]

Are you implying that you’re the only expert here and that my thoughts and opinions count as nothing? Are you humble enough to believe that my thoughts and opinions could really have been inspired by the Holy Spirit, who can bless and guide the lowly with free gifts that include wisdom, knowledge, and understanding? It seems to me that whatever I say that you disagree with is instantly regarded as heresy.

What makes you think that I do not already have a spiritual director–the best of all spiritual directors–the Holy Spirit? Again, is the Holy Spirit lacking in power to guide and advise a lowly person such as myself?
[/quote]

 

[LilyM]

Yes, and as I said before, I’m personally very joyful and optimistic towards the Hereafter, but as for our loving our actually being in exile, separated from our creator, I think we would be sadistic to love this exile. So much pain and suffering surround us! So much war and crime! So much vanity!

Speaking for myself, I listen to music, classical music with much gregorian chant and Masses, but that’s about the only worldly thing that I can extract pleasure from. Nothing else is the least bit pleasurable to me anymore. Looking back on my life, it mostly looks like vanity. Nothing motivates me but studying religion, talking to and praying for my daughter and granddaughter, and looking forward to Heaven. I live in solitude and I believe I’m not allowed to seek any consolation from anybody but God.

The wisest thing I do is to donate to charity even though rents have gone sky-high where I live and I live at the poverty level. The dumbest thing I do is spend time on the Internet, including this forum, when I should be praying and preparing my soul for the Hereafter that I pray I’m able to enter ASAP.

I know there are many cold hearted people on this forum who will try to criticize me for what I believe and who I have become, but be it as it may, this is me and I believe I’m serving God the best that I can. I’m not an angry person by any means, and I often feel peace and calm, and I’m willing to stay in this world until God calls me home.

I’m not suggesting that anybody else should live like me, and I do not condemn those who do not, but I believe there is a heuristic value in sharing this with people on this forum, and I hope that at least some find some value in it!

Hmmm. Every blessed atom of the universe was created by God, created good, and bears at least something of an imprint or image of Him as a result.

Do you honestly think He looks at it all and sees no good and no joy in anything but a very few rstricted forms of music and your daughter and granddaughter?

Do you really think He looks at your life and sees naught but folly and vanity and misery? Even the most pessimistic parts of scripture - Job or Ecclesiastes - end in hope and joy, and not only in the afterlife, not only in a pitifully few aspects of this life either.

 

[Bookcat]

(name removed by moderator);14629197:

Robert Sock;14629169:

What makes you think that I do not already have a spiritual director–the best of all spiritual directors–the Holy Spirit? Again, is the Holy Spirit lacking in power to guide and advise a lowly person such as myself?

The Holy Spirit yes amen.

But part of the very work of the Holy Spirit is via others…especially the Church.

A great quote:

“A divine inspiration cannot ask us to do something that contradicts what the Word of God teaches and asks of us. This means not the Word of God as compiled by each individual’s fantasy and interpretation, but Holy Scripture as transmitted and explained by the teaching authority of the Church. For example, a divine inspiration cannot ask me to commit acts that the Church considers immoral. In the same way, true inspirations always go in the direction of a spirit of obedience to the Church.”

~ Fr Jacques Philippe

In the School of the Holy Spirit, p.47 (Scepter Publishers)

 

[Robert_Sock]

Hmmm. Every blessed atom of the universe was created by God, created good, and bears at least something of an imprint or image of Him as a result.

Do you honestly think He looks at it all and sees no good and no joy in anything but a very few rstricted forms of music and your daughter and granddaughter?

Do you really think He looks at your life and sees naught but folly and vanity and misery? Even the most pessimistic parts of scripture - Job or Ecclesiastes - end in hope and joy, and not only in the afterlife, not only in a pitifully few aspects of this life either.

Do you not agree that God calls different people to live different lives? Are you suggesting that the way I live my life is somehow filled with folly simply because it’s not in accord with your perceptions of reality? Carefully consider that most peoples’ perception of reality is based on what I call the grand illusion–an illusion that is instilled in us beginning at a very early age through the intense, dark influence of the mass media? Perhaps your perception of reality has been perverted. I encourage you to watch The Way of the Cross, by St Francis of Assisi, which can be found here:

youtube.com/watch?v=oZ9om4YElns

While you’re at it, you may want to contemplate the lives of all the saints and lay people who led very holy lives living similar to the way I do. Tell me again what I’m missing out on besides all the folly and vanity this life has to offer to those who love it?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Yes, I pray for an early death so that I may sooner be with my Creator!

“What good is it to live a long life when we amend that life so little? Indeed, a long life does not always benefit us, but on the contrary, frequently adds to our guilt. Would that in this world we had lived well throughout one single day. Many count up the years they have spent in religion but find their lives made little holier. If it is so terrifying to die, it is nevertheless possible that to live longer is more dangerous. Blessed is he who keeps the moment of death ever before his eyes and prepares for it every day.”
-The Imitation of Christ

 

[Robert_Sock]

[/quote]

You claim that your spiritual director is the Holy Spirit. Are you humble enough to submit your private interpretations to the 2000 year old judgment of the Church (as I and all clergy do by having spiritual directors)? Are you claiming that you are the only one who the Holy Spirit guides and gifts with knowledge, wisdom, understanding, counsel, piety, fortitude and holy fear? Are you willing to humble yourself to the judgment of the Church?

Robert, I don’t disagree with “everything” you say. However you keep coming back to these gnostic ideas which the church (not me) condemned hundreds of years ago, and expressing them as if they are some new revelation. As long you keep espousing and pushing these ideas that the Church (not I) has condemned, I will continue to try to make sure the children of God who read these posts are not misguided.

I never said that my thoughts and opinions are from the Holy Spirit, only that you consider that they may be.

Again, can you please be specific on which of my thoughts on the Holy Scripture are in conflict with the Church’s teachings other than the interpretation by Pope Benedict XVI on John 12:25? Is this an actual Church teaching, that is upheld by the Magisterium? Is it possible that Pope Benedict XVI’s interpretation is in error? After all, it seems that none of the interpreters of the Bible ever caught this error. And again, it seems to be at odds with the several sources I have listed previously.** Have I in any way sinned in questioning this interpretation?** **Do you consider it heresy to take John 12:25 seriously the way it is written? **

But it seems that
[/quote]