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Publisher
Guest
Some obscure believer in Antioch the city where first they were called “Christians.”
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Just as a friendly brotherly challenge, when Job proclaimed that “my redeemer lives”, who was he speaking of? How does the Hall of Fame of Faith saints in Hebrews 11 fit in within the body of Christ? I see the OT Saints to be part of the body of Christ.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Let me suggest Moses before Mary the Mother of God.
By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them. - Hebrews 11
Or maybe even Abraham before Mary?
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. - Galatians 3
Or maybe even Abel before Mary?
By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. - Hebrews 11
But I still believe Adam and Eve were the first sinners to receive the promise of God of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (Genesis 3).
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Publisher
Guest
“Who was the first Christian?” was the question, not who was the first redeemed by Christ? “They were first called Christians in Antioch.”
So I’m going to say the first “Christian” was the one first called a “Christian”…seems an easy enough answer for me.
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whm
Guest
Based on some of the definitions of Christian in this thread…
I would submit that Jesus is the first Christian.
He followed his teachings - check
He knew He was God - check (and obviously he knew it first)
He was present either in person or through the Trinity at all the various events mentioned (Pentecost, Crucifixion, etc) - check
He is Christ like - check
Obviously this is circular. And of course He did not need a redeemer for Himself. Of course He is God and always has been God. However He did die for our sins, He did provide the example for how all Christians should live.
If we exclude Jesus from the discussion then, I say Mary then John the Baptist.
I would submit that Jesus is the first Christian.
He followed his teachings - check
He knew He was God - check (and obviously he knew it first)
He was present either in person or through the Trinity at all the various events mentioned (Pentecost, Crucifixion, etc) - check
He is Christ like - check
Obviously this is circular. And of course He did not need a redeemer for Himself. Of course He is God and always has been God. However He did die for our sins, He did provide the example for how all Christians should live.
If we exclude Jesus from the discussion then, I say Mary then John the Baptist.
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Xavierlives
Guest
Ok. I’ll chime in a couple of options I don’t think have been discussed (with scripture):
OPTION 1 - John the Baptist
Jesus was testifying before the Pharasees (in John 5:16-45). Jesus was questioned about his authority and diety and he stated:
“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is valid. You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth.”
Jesus points out John the Baptist, who saw the big picture and has testified on his behalf.
OPTION 2 - The Thief on the Cross
I only offer this up as a matter of timing and Christ’s words (Luke 23:39-43):
One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other criminal rebuked him, “Don’t you fear God,” he said. “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Now, I’m taking a guess here, but I’m pretty sure this criminal was not present at the religious trial of Jesus, I’d venture a guess, at best he was at the criminal trial. Either way, even as a criminal, he seemed to have complete grasp of his sin and his penalty. He recognized the blamelessness of Jesus. He recognized that only Jesus has authority to judge and the criminal asked for mercy.
OPTION 1 - John the Baptist
Jesus was testifying before the Pharasees (in John 5:16-45). Jesus was questioned about his authority and diety and he stated:
“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is valid. You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth.”
Jesus points out John the Baptist, who saw the big picture and has testified on his behalf.
OPTION 2 - The Thief on the Cross
I only offer this up as a matter of timing and Christ’s words (Luke 23:39-43):
One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other criminal rebuked him, “Don’t you fear God,” he said. “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Now, I’m taking a guess here, but I’m pretty sure this criminal was not present at the religious trial of Jesus, I’d venture a guess, at best he was at the criminal trial. Either way, even as a criminal, he seemed to have complete grasp of his sin and his penalty. He recognized the blamelessness of Jesus. He recognized that only Jesus has authority to judge and the criminal asked for mercy.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I think both your answer and my answer are right at the same time.“Who was the first Christian?” was the question, not who was the first redeemed by Christ? “They were first called Christians in Antioch.”
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2nd_Adam
Guest
It seemed Isaiah knew much too.
Isaiah 53
53:1 Who has believed what he has heard from us? [1]
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected [2] by men;
a man of sorrows, [3] and acquainted with [4] grief; [5]
and as one from whom men hide their faces [6]
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief; [7]
when his soul makes [8] an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see [9] and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, [10]
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, [11]
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.
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jmcrae
Guest
Use your head. Mary was not stupid. She knew the penalties for being pregnant out of wedlock. She also knew that the child within her was made of the same substance that God is made of.
If she had thought even for one second that He was a mere mortal, she would never have agreed to bear Him, since she knew, as a single woman in a very patriarchal society, that without Divine protection, she was going to be stoned and/or beaten to death, and her body thrown to the dogs.
She not only believed that He was God; she was counting on it, for her own survival.
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jmcrae
Guest
That would be St. Peter, who was Bishop of Antioch, at the time.“Who was the first Christian?” was the question, not who was the first redeemed by Christ? “They were first called Christians in Antioch.”
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I believe Peter was catholic. That’s why Paul had to rebuke him publically when he was not acting in line with the truth of the gospel .That would be St. Peter, who was Bishop of Antioch, at the time.
Paul Opposes Peter
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?” - Galatians
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rev_kevin
Guest
I take offence at your first statement {use your head} I am using my head. Now lets keep to the subject. I realize that Mary was not stupid. I realize she knew the child within her CAME from God and not a mere mortal. Now I have given you evidence that she didn’t know the child WAS God. I asked you to show me in the Bible were it says that she KNEW it was God and all you gave me was about her being a pregnant single woman and the consequences of that. You have not given me any Biblical verse’s to back up what you said. You said she KNEW that Jesus came from the same SUBSTANCE that God is made of which is different from BEING God. Example you came from the same substance of your parents but you are not your parents. See the difference between sustance and being, they are totally different. Once again I ask you to give me evidence from the Bible to back up your statement that Mary knew Jesus WAS God.
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jmcrae
Guest
Do you happen to recall who the Lawgiver was, who made that Law, in the first place? (Psst, it was Peter.)I believe Peter was catholic. That’s why Paul had to rebuke him publically when he was not acting in line with the truth of the gospel .
Paul Opposes Peter
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?” - Galatians
St. Paul knew that St. Peter was the Pope, which is how he (St. Paul) knew that that law, which St. Peter had made, was a Law from God, and that therefore all (including St. Peter himself) were bound to follow it, and not to consider it “an opinion, among many opinions.”
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jmcrae
Guest
No, but we are all human. I am a different human person than my parents are, just as Jesus is a different divine Person than the Father and the Holy Spirit are, but all three of them are God, just as I and my parents are three human persons.
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whm
Guest
Not to intrude on your discussion…
Luke 1 39-45 (Elizabeth speaking)
“But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”
and Luke 1 46-49
"And Mary said: My soul glorifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, for the Mighty One has done great things for me holy is his name.
It seems clear that both Mary and Elizabeth know that Mary’s baby is the “Lord”. They also know that the “Lord” caused her to be pregnant. Both “Lords” are capitalized as is God and Savior.
So I would say yes, Mary knew that her baby was both the Son of God and God her Savior.
I would also submit the “Wedding at Cana” as further evidence that Mary knew of her Son’s divine nature.
Hope that helps
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I’m not clear which law you are taking about. If you are talking about the Council of Jersulem, it was clear that James was acting as the Pope. :juggle:Do you happen to recall who the Lawgiver was, who made that Law, in the first place? (Psst, it was Peter.)
St. Paul knew that St. Peter was the Pope, which is how he (St. Paul) knew that that law, which St. Peter had made, was a Law from God, and that therefore all (including St. Peter himself) were bound to follow it, and not to consider it “an opinion, among many opinions.”
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jmcrae
Guest
James was the local Bishop. Peter was the Pope. (John 21:15-19)
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rev_kevin
Guest
I have asked you a question that you are avoiding or don’t have the answer to. The question was, show me evidence in the Bible that Mary KNEW that Jesus WAS God.
But you avoid that question and instead you comment on the Substance and Being difference I have shown you. So i will answer that for you.Now by saying that just because you and your parents are human that make it the same as Jesus and God. See God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same PERSON, the same BEING. You and your parents are the same SUBSTANCE not the same PERSON. You, your parents and the rest of the world are all part of the human race not part of the same person. See we are part of the same race but not the same person as God and Jesus are. Now with that said can we keep to the subject and try to answer the question this time around. If you don’t have the answer just say you don’t but if you do then show me the evidence of it and stop avoiding it.
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Xavierlives
Guest
Yeah, I had a long line of prophets on the short list too along with Enoch.
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jmcrae
Guest
Of course she knew! How could she not know??!! Show me evidence in Scripture that Mary thought she was getting pregnant in the normal way, or that she thought the child inside her was an ordinary baby?
Jesus is God (that’s what He is made of) but He is not the Father, nor the Holy Spirit. the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three Persons, all made of the same substance - God.
Right. Just exactly as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three distinctly separate Persons, but all the same God.
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