D
djrakowski
Guest
Then the former Catholics you know were, unfortunately, misinformed.
- Status
D
deb1
Guest
Could you please give an example.
B
believers
Guest
Example of what?
M
MariaG
Guest
:yup: That is true.
Most Catholics who leave the Catholic Church do not understand Christ’s teachings.
Most Protestant who become Catholic have a very good understanding of Christ’s teachings.
God Bless,
Maria
B
believers
Guest
I took this further and asked my Catholic family and friends the same question. “As Christians, why are we saved?” After, I asked “do you believe that Jesus paid for our sins IN FULL and that there’s nothing more we can do but believe and obey?”
The answers I received varied from one person to the next. The amazing thing is most have been Catholic since birth with over 30+ years.
D
djrakowski
Guest
So, you’re taking the mistaken ideas of Catholics with a poor grasp of the Church’s teachings on salvation and insisting that’s our doctrine?
And, what unacceptable answers have you received?
B
believers
Guest
No, I’m not. My question to you, does the Catholic church teach that Jesus paid full price for our salvation? If so, when?
Here are some answers
“you must be baptized”
“baptism and go to church and pray”
“baptism, communion, confession”
“live a wholesome life”
“be a good person”
“obey the 10 commandments”
S
ScottH
Guest
One of the key realizations I came to as a Protestant (who’s now a Roman Catholic) was that, generally speaking, the only thing that really “unites” the denominations is their dislike of Roman Catholicism. Even in that, it’s a weak- and usually temporary unity, and only in notion. There’s too much money on the table to ever “unite”, and too many bureaucratic fiefdoms at the top of the individual denominational hierarchies. As it stands now, most protestants speak of a “united church” as an unattainable notion, though still some would give the lip-service comment “wouldn’t it be nice”?
Their church governments and general assemblies aren’t saying that- that’s for darn sure- or many of their hardliners who believe their denomination is the best. The Southern Baptists, The PCUSA, Episcopals, Lutherans (whichever branch), Pentacostals, and non-denominationals might throw their arms around one another briefly at a convention or Christian music festival, but the thought of true “church unity” is foreign to them- and if I may be so frank- mostly unwanted by each individual church government represented therein.
Nobody likes to be told what to do. Everybody likes things their own way.
Human nature.
People like their denominational flavor. If they didn’t think it was the best, they wouldn’t attend it.
For me, it was eye opening to watching my old denomination fall at the highest level. (It continues to do so… gay ordination is on the docket for the next gen. assembly meetings)
Other denominations are having the same problem… yet most of the people within the denominations compartmentalize their feelings to extend only to their own church building.
“Well, the general assembly is screwed up, but my individual church isn’t.”
Hmm… so a stand for righteousness is okay if its someone ELSES church doing something wrong. (I can imagine the rocks being thrown by individual Presby church members at us if Roman Catholicism ever decided to promote gay ordination… could you IMAGINE that uproar?) But when they do it at the top… the fall back into compartmentalization and say “Well, its a bad decision, but if it doesn’t effect my little church building, I’ll stay.”
…interesting dichotomy of the current state of the protestant reformation, that’s for sure.
Their church governments and general assemblies aren’t saying that- that’s for darn sure- or many of their hardliners who believe their denomination is the best. The Southern Baptists, The PCUSA, Episcopals, Lutherans (whichever branch), Pentacostals, and non-denominationals might throw their arms around one another briefly at a convention or Christian music festival, but the thought of true “church unity” is foreign to them- and if I may be so frank- mostly unwanted by each individual church government represented therein.
Nobody likes to be told what to do. Everybody likes things their own way.
Human nature.
People like their denominational flavor. If they didn’t think it was the best, they wouldn’t attend it.
For me, it was eye opening to watching my old denomination fall at the highest level. (It continues to do so… gay ordination is on the docket for the next gen. assembly meetings)
Other denominations are having the same problem… yet most of the people within the denominations compartmentalize their feelings to extend only to their own church building.
“Well, the general assembly is screwed up, but my individual church isn’t.”
Hmm… so a stand for righteousness is okay if its someone ELSES church doing something wrong. (I can imagine the rocks being thrown by individual Presby church members at us if Roman Catholicism ever decided to promote gay ordination… could you IMAGINE that uproar?) But when they do it at the top… the fall back into compartmentalization and say “Well, its a bad decision, but if it doesn’t effect my little church building, I’ll stay.”
…interesting dichotomy of the current state of the protestant reformation, that’s for sure.
M
MariaG
Guest
There are pew warmers in every Church.
There is also a matter of language. Catholics use different language to express the same things as Protestants. Not sure if what you are describing is ignorance of Christ or just language differences.
But those who leave the Catholic Church, are usually ignorant of Christ’s teachings no matter what language used. But Protestants who become Catholic, are very well versed in Christ’s teachings.
God Bless,
Maria
M
MariaG
Guest
Depends on if when you say “in full” you mean once saved always saved. That would be never since Christ and His apostles never taught OSAS.
By “in full” you mean we can do nothing to earn our salvation, that would be in every Mass.
Some of these are language differences, some are ignorance.
God Bless,
Maria
D
djrakowski
Guest
Ah, thanks for giving me something to work with! 
believers:
Quoting RyanL from this thread, post #203, and quoting from the Council of Trent:
And again from the Council of Trent:
Read Mark 16:16, John 14:15 and 1 Peter 3:21. Note that the verses in Mark and John record the words of Jesus. How can anyone come to the conclusion that baptism isn’t necessary to show that we love and obey Jesus? I don’t understand your objection. Please, especially explain how you would interpret the verse from 1 Peter. Of course, it is problematic if they believe they will be baptized and thus get into heaven by doing nothing else, but baptism clearly, from the Scriptures, normatively plays a role in salvation.
Well, your friends and family are wrong, if that’s all they believe about salvation. It isn’t what the Church teaches, unfortunately.
A
aboverubies
Guest
Hello OP, I see from your profile that you are a Protestant. I am an ex-Protestant now Catholic.
I could write a long and wordy reply but the reason I converted can be summed up in one essential difference between the two Christian denominations.
The Catholic Church offers a real and personal relationship with Jesus in the Sacraments.
The Protestant church offers a real and personal relationship with Jesus only through words.
How could I sit in a pew in one church and just listen to great teaching about Christ when I finally understood that the Church down the road was offering Christ Himself in the Sacraments?
Answer? I couldn’t!
Keep asking questions…listen to the answers!
God Bless,
aboverubies
I could write a long and wordy reply but the reason I converted can be summed up in one essential difference between the two Christian denominations.
The Catholic Church offers a real and personal relationship with Jesus in the Sacraments.
The Protestant church offers a real and personal relationship with Jesus only through words.
How could I sit in a pew in one church and just listen to great teaching about Christ when I finally understood that the Church down the road was offering Christ Himself in the Sacraments?
Answer? I couldn’t!
Keep asking questions…listen to the answers!
God Bless,
aboverubies
D
djrakowski
Guest
:clapping: Well said!
My wife said that, before I started looking into the Catholic Church, that she prayed to be as close to Jesus as she possibly could. Then, we discovered the Eucharist, and her prayer was answered.
B
believers
Guest
Okay, someone going to church and sitting in the pew obviously believes there’s at least a God, rt? It’s so easy to save those people who don’t know that God sent Jesus to save us. Why isn’t there part of the mass that actually says, “God sent Jesus to pay for our sins IN FULL with His blood on the cross” and then explain to them that they must believe and obey for salvation. In many cases, Sunday (for about 1 hour) is the only time people have dedicated to worship. It so important to use that time wisely for their sake.
M
montanaman
Guest
We do use it wisely–for worship. We don’t gather for Bible study because that can and does happen elsewhere.
D
djrakowski
Guest
Folks normally learn the faith by going to some sort of catechetical training - sort-of like Sunday school for Catholic youth. For adults, there’s the yearlong RCIA process in which the beliefs of the faith are explained.
You also misunderstand why we gather for worship. We have the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. There is nothing on earth that makes it clear that Jesus died to pay for our sins in full than what happens every time the Mass is celebrated.
B
believers
Guest
But don’t you see how this is not working for so many that are unsaved? How is anyone to know that to truly know about salvation, you’re going to have to attend Bible study? Isn’t spreading the good news about salvation also a form of worship and should be practiced during mass. Most Catholics I know don’t go to Bible study or read the Bible. Sunday is all they have. It wouldn’t take but a few minutes. At the very end, the priest asks for prayers and also gives news or announcements. Why not include the news of salvation?
S
sadie2723
Guest
Hey gang. Here is a thought that I have, and one that I have been thinking about for a while. Do you think that one of the reasons that people do not convert is that they view democracy and Catholicism as being polar opposites?
Here is where I am going with this. I think that there is a reason that there are like 30,000 protestant denominations out there, and I think that the reason is democracy. You get a group of people together of common interest, and you do your own thing. It grows in membership, but at a certain point groups form and splinter into other groups. This is the nature of democracy to some degree…that we all have a voice and that the majority decides everything.
Contrast that to the Church of Rome in which there is one leader (the Pope) with total authority in teaching. So, if you do not like a particular teaching, you have no choice but to leave the entire thing, as it does not matter how many people disagree with him…he is still right.
I have often thought that the democratic point of view might be holding things up for us.
Oh, and by the way, when reading this, do not get the impression that I am somehow anti-democracy. Nothing could be further from the truth. I just think that democracy has its place, and that place is not in determining church teaching.
Here is where I am going with this. I think that there is a reason that there are like 30,000 protestant denominations out there, and I think that the reason is democracy. You get a group of people together of common interest, and you do your own thing. It grows in membership, but at a certain point groups form and splinter into other groups. This is the nature of democracy to some degree…that we all have a voice and that the majority decides everything.
Contrast that to the Church of Rome in which there is one leader (the Pope) with total authority in teaching. So, if you do not like a particular teaching, you have no choice but to leave the entire thing, as it does not matter how many people disagree with him…he is still right.
I have often thought that the democratic point of view might be holding things up for us.
Oh, and by the way, when reading this, do not get the impression that I am somehow anti-democracy. Nothing could be further from the truth. I just think that democracy has its place, and that place is not in determining church teaching.
D
djrakowski
Guest
You’re on VERY dangerous ground when you claim to know, with such certainty, the state of an individual’s salvation. You greatly, greatly misunderstand how salvation works. I’m guessing you’re placing emphasis on the moment you “receive Christ as your personal Lord and Savior” and thus have your fate sealed for all eternity, regardless of the sins you commit after that moment?
Simply because you don’t understand the Catholic Church’s means of communicating the message of salvation doesn’t mean it isn’t being communicated. You need to learn more about what and how the Church really teaches before you make such broad, sweeping statements that essentially condemn most of us Catholics (and near Catholics like me) to hell.
S
sadie2723
Guest
Amen. And, let’s not forget that the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved, which is what we are talking about here, did not come into being until Martin (I can commit Adultry 100 times a day and still be saved ) Luther came up with it in the 1500’s.
- Status