Why do Protestants become Catholic?

[Drober49]

Jeanette and Sadie,

I think you both made good points. May I add a parallel or two that is aimed at stepping ‘out’ a little bit and seeing the situations by comparing them to some other concepts?

1. Isn’t it interesting that our Founders thought it necessary to have a final, binding authority and thus established the Supreme Court? When most of the Founders were Protestants? Why? (asked rhetorically)
2. As for another aspect of church democracy, my wife’s two brothers and her brother in law are Pentecostal ministers. One day at a family reunion I was getting acquainted with her wonderful brother in law and so we were trading stories of our backgrounds. I asked him how he came to be pastor of his current church such as did his Bishop appoint him? He seemed a bit puzzled at my question but told me he had been at a church about 50 miles away for a number of years and he was feeling he had accomplished rejuvenation that particular church needed. And then that some folks from the church he pastors now had heard of his work at the previous church and they told him they needed a new pastor so he was invited in for interviews. He took on this new pastorship but he said the congregation had to vote on whether he should be the new pastor. He said there were three prominent families in that church who voted against him and that they had “been used to getting their way.” He said the first year or two was ‘somewhat difficult’ but it got easier when those families decided to leave and either start or find another church. I found it kinda odd.

Take care!
Dennis E

 

[believers]

djrakowski:

Except that the concept of eternal secutiry is entirely un-Biblical. And, you missed my point - you were saying that YOU know whether someone is saved, which is something that is only in the knowledge of God. I don’t think you want to raise yourself to that level (I know I don’t!)
Do you obey his other teachings, such as the necessity of baptism? Or the Eucharist? Read John 6 again, sincerely, and look at the emphasis Jesus places on receiving Him in the Eucharist.

Again, this bears repeating. How do you know that the doctrines taught by your pastor, when different from the pastor down the street, which are different from the pastor across town, are correct?
Well, I’ll quote you where you condemned us to hell:

That means that you have decided, through what you can gather from observing and listening to your friends and family, that you can tell if they’re saved. Again, I say you’re coming awfully close to placing yourself in God’s shoes, and that’s not where I’d want to be!

Unbelievable, will you please stop already with the condemnation? No one is condemning you. If you feel condemned, that’s your own fault.
What will it take for you to understand that there are people in mass every Sunday that have no idea about salvation? Why don’t you stop referring to God’s shoes. How do you even know He has shoes? Have you seen Him? My point is, get the news about salvation into the ears of those who don’t know about it. You’ll find many sitting in the pews each and every Sunday who don’t fully understand. It would only take a minute at the very end of mass with all the other announcements.

 

[believers]

Jeanette L:

This is where you speak the Truth but don’t fully understand it yet. BELIEVE AND OBEY. Only you can’t just turn around and decide what you must obey, only the commandments about love because it sounds good. You either take Christ at his word, all of it, or you make up your own way. When he commands us to obey Him in ALL THINGS, he means it, he’s not just passing time talking gibberish. To love God means to take him seriously in everything he said *and * commanded, offering him your obedience, otherwise you are fooling not only yourself, but all those you have influence over, and that is a scary situation for you.

And we know that Christ said NARROW IS THE WAY, and few there are that find it. It wasn’t the easy way, it was the road less traveled.

You lost me on that one. I mentioned the greatest commandment and you have a problem with that? You do realize that loving God above all and loving one another comes first and EVERYTHING else is a close second?

 

[Tonks40]

believers:

You lost me on that one. I mentioned the greatest commandment and you have a problem with that? You do realize that loving God above all and loving one another comes first and EVERYTHING else is a close second?

Ya know, believers, I actually really don’t have any arguements with what you’ve said in the last couple of posts about following God’s commands, and of course, the greatest commandments of loving our Lord with all our hearts, all our minds, all our souls, and to love one another as we love ourselves. These are are goals as Christians. This is something we need to truly strive for.

(Sorry y’all - had a bad day seeing transgression after transgression of people towards one another…)

 

[Jeanette_L]

believers:

You lost me on that one. I mentioned the greatest commandment and you have a problem with that? You do realize that loving God above all and loving one another comes first and EVERYTHING else is a close second?

I am sorry if you misunderstood me as I certainly do not have a problem with the two greatest commandments. On the contrary, my point was that believing in Christ without complete obedience to him is not true belief, nor is it truly loving God as we are told in the greatest commandment.

There is a lot packed into those commandments of loving God and loving neighbor as yourself. To love God means more than just feeling love or devotion, or speaking words of belief, or acknowledging him as savior. It means that to love him perfectly is an act of our will being in complete submission to obeying his will. And in obeying his will, we obey **all ** that he has commanded. There are no close seconds.

Christ said if we love him, we will keep his commandments. You cannot separate Christ’s teachings one from another. You cannot exclude any of them. You cannot pick and choose. And the two greatest commandments include all the others, it’s a package deal.

That’s all I was trying to say.

 

[Tonks40]

Jeanette L:

Christ said if we love him, we will keep his commandments. You cannot separate Christ’s teachings one from another. You cannot exclude any of them. You cannot pick and choose. And the two greatest commandments include all the others, it’s a package deal.

That’s all I was trying to say.

Perfectly said, Jeanette!

 

[believers]

Jeanette L:

I am sorry if you misunderstood me as I certainly do not have a problem with the two greatest commandments. On the contrary, my point was that believing in Christ without complete obedience to him is not true belief, nor is it truly loving God as we are told in the greatest commandment.

There is a lot packed into those commandments of loving God and loving neighbor as yourself. To love God means more than just feeling love or devotion, or speaking words of belief, or acknowledging him as savior. It means that to love him perfectly is an act of our will being in complete submission to obeying his will. And in obeying his will, we obey **all ** that he has commanded. There are no close seconds.

Christ said if we love him, we will keep his commandments. You cannot separate Christ’s teachings one from another. You cannot exclude any of them. You cannot pick and choose. And the two greatest commandments include all the others, it’s a package deal.

That’s all I was trying to say.

As I stated earlier, I was Catholic for 36 years. I lived it my entire life. I did the whole nine yards since I was a kid in CCD. My family goes back several generations. To have people on this forum tell me I don’t understand the faith is ridiculous. Anyway, because of your Protestant background, you may never be able to relate. I’m referring to the many Catholics who go to church and never understand why. I’m willing to bet “Cradle Catholics” know what I’m talking about. They just don’t want to speak up. Their own family has been Catholic for generations. Many of whom never went to CCD or any Bible study. Yet they go to church every Sunday without any real knowledge base. Not because they’re lazy but because they don’t know any better. This is a fact. It’s a problem and it needs to be addressed.

 

[Tonks40]

believers:

As I stated earlier, I was Catholic for 36 years. I lived it my entire life. I did the whole nine yards since I was a kid in CCD. My family goes back several generations. To have people on this forum tell me I don’t understand the faith is ridiculous. Anyway, because of your Protestant background, you may never be able to relate. I’m referring to the many Catholics who go to church and never understand why. I’m willing to bet “Cradle Catholics” know what I’m talking about. They just don’t want to speak up. Their own family has been Catholic for generations. Many of whom never went to CCD or any Bible study. Yet they go to church every Sunday without any real knowledge base. Not because they’re lazy but because they don’t know any better. This is a fact. It’s a problem and it needs to be addressed.

From reading your last couple of posts begs the following questions: Is it the people in the Church that made you leave? Seeing the majority of Catholics with their lukewarm or nearly-non-existent belief in the salvation Christ promised us? Seeing them dedicate only an hour of their time to the Lord instead of seeing them live the life of Christ full-time?

(sorry for the off-topic)

 

[Julia1]

Good Morning, All!

The last few days have been just too pretty to spend indoors on the computer so I’ve been outside mostly, doing yard work!

I see there are lots to catch up with here, so I will try my hardest to answer all of your questions…please bear with me since today promises to be a pretty one as well …

Here’s the first one:

Which non-Protestant, non-Catholic body would that be?

The Body of Christ, of course!

 

[djrakowski]

believers:

Unbelievable, will you please stop already with the condemnation? No one is condemning you. If you feel condemned, that’s your own fault.

You are the one who’s been claiming to know whether other people are saved. I still contend that you’re standing on dangerous ground when you contend to know the state of another’s soul, which is something that God alone knows. How in the world could you possibly say with such overwhelming certainty that you KNOW those ‘pew-sitters’ are unsaved? You have no right to make such a claim, and that’s my primary objection to what you’ve said in your posts.

What will it take for you to understand that there are people in mass every Sunday that have no idea about salvation?

Are you absolutely certain that everyone in your new church is saved? If so, how?

Why don’t you stop referring to God’s shoes. How do you even know He has shoes? Have you seen Him?

Oh, good HEAVENS! That’s a very common figure of speech in my neck of the woods (oops, how do I know that the woods have a necK

My point is, get the news about salvation into the ears of those who don’t know about it. You’ll find many sitting in the pews each and every Sunday who don’t fully understand. It would only take a minute at the very end of mass with all the other announcements.

We do. Because you don’t understand how, doesn’t mean it isn’t so.

It appears that you have a big problem with non-serious, unknowledgable Catholics (and before I started the conversion process, I had the same impressions as you), and I’m sorry that you’ve had such a negative experience - really, I am. Lots of us who sit next to such folks in the pews have a problem with it, too. But, because people reject the truth they’ve been taught or fail to make it their own makes it nonetheless true.

And don’t assume there aren’t ‘pew-sitters’ everywhere. I knew plenty of them as an evangelical, and I know plenty of them now that I’m choosing to enter the Catholic Church.

There comes a point where each individual has to take responsibility to LEARN about the faith rather than being expected to have it spoon-fed to them every Sunday. I’ve even heard Mother Angelica refer to that as ‘accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.’ Doubtless she means something entirely different from the typical evangelical use of the term, but she has a point. Everyone has to step up and appropriate the faith into their life, rather than having it handed down to them, and it doesn’t happen through osmosis by sitting in a pew and making the right moves every Sunday. Even in an evangelical community, after they’ve gotten your committment to follow Christ, they’ll quickly get you plugged in to a Bible study, small group or other educational setting. That’s how it was at my previous two evangelical churches, and at every other one I’ve ever checked out. So, it is a bit disingenuous to claim that the only time most people ‘hear the message of salvation’ is during one hour on Sunday morning, because there are TONS of opportunities for that at most parishes, and they’re listed right in the bulletin (at least at my parish). Folks need to take responsibility for themselves as adults and LEARN THEIR FAITH!

 

[djrakowski]

believers:

You lost me on that one. I mentioned the greatest commandment and you have a problem with that? You do realize that loving God above all and loving one another comes first and EVERYTHING else is a close second?

I understand and agree with what you’ve said, mostly. But, Jesus also said in John 14:15, “If you love me, you will obey what I command.” I can’t imagine anything commanded by Jesus as coming in a close second.

 

[sadie2723]

Drober49:

Jeanette and Sadie,

I think you both made good points. May I add a parallel or two that is aimed at stepping ‘out’ a little bit and seeing the situations by comparing them to some other concepts?

1. Isn’t it interesting that our Founders thought it necessary to have a final, binding authority and thus established the Supreme Court? When most of the Founders were Protestants? Why? (asked rhetorically)
2. As for another aspect of church democracy, my wife’s two brothers and her brother in law are Pentecostal ministers. One day at a family reunion I was getting acquainted with her wonderful brother in law and so we were trading stories of our backgrounds. I asked him how he came to be pastor of his current church such as did his Bishop appoint him? He seemed a bit puzzled at my question but told me he had been at a church about 50 miles away for a number of years and he was feeling he had accomplished rejuvenation that particular church needed. And then that some folks from the church he pastors now had heard of his work at the previous church and they told him they needed a new pastor so he was invited in for interviews. He took on this new pastorship but he said the congregation had to vote on whether he should be the new pastor. He said there were three prominent families in that church who voted against him and that they had “been used to getting their way.” He said the first year or two was ‘somewhat difficult’ but it got easier when those families decided to leave and either start or find another church. I found it kinda odd.

Take care!
Dennis E

Interesting! My experiences have been similar. Most of the time what happens here is that there is a major issue on a subject…say abortion…and most of the churches will condemn it. But, over time, some of the big churches have groups of people form in them that basically lobby for that position to be changed. If they work hard enough, they actually change the position of the church on the issue. I have seen this time and again, and I think it is an example of the pew ruling the pulpit.

This is one of the reasons that I get fired up when I hear people say things like, “You know I could get into that church if they would just “modenrize” a little bit.” The church does not need to liberalize its standards. People need to embrace the rules and live by them.

Brad

 

[Jeanette_L]

believers:

As I stated earlier, I was Catholic for 36 years. I lived it my entire life. I did the whole nine yards since I was a kid in CCD. My family goes back several generations. To have people on this forum tell me I don’t understand the faith is ridiculous. Anyway, because of your Protestant background, you may never be able to relate. I’m referring to the many Catholics who go to church and never understand why. I’m willing to bet “Cradle Catholics” know what I’m talking about. They just don’t want to speak up. Their own family has been Catholic for generations. Many of whom never went to CCD or any Bible study. Yet they go to church every Sunday without any real knowledge base. Not because they’re lazy but because they don’t know any better. This is a fact. It’s a problem and it needs to be addressed.

Believers -

I am in no way trying to minimize what you have experienced in your life. But I do have to tell you, this happens everywhere, not just Catholicism. I couldn’t tell you how many Baptist kids I grew up with, went to Christian school with, who really didn’t get it. And it wasn’t because it wasn’t presented to them, if you know anything about Fundamentalism, you know they are really presented with the Gospel of Christ over and over. They just didn’t open up to the message and some stayed on, going through the routine, some just left Christianity altogether. Some ended up having their conversion experience through another denomination and believed what you believe, that something was wrong with the experience they had in the faith they grew up in.

I have an uncle who was a faithful Assemblies of God member his entire life, never missed church, always gave to missions, raised his kids in the church, had gifts of the Holy Spirit…When he was on his deathbed a few years ago, he admitted that he never knew the Lord, repented of his sins and died in peace. His kids and grandkids grew up in the church and most don’t understand Christianity in it’s essance at all. It’s shocking actually.

So, what I am saying, what you have experienced is not Catholic, it is universal (same word, I know, but you know what I mean). Sometimes people go through their Christian life and never see the Tree for the forest. And the Holy Spirit reaches them in a completely unexpected way. That doesn’t mean that where they had been the whole time the message was inaccessible, actually it was they themselves that were inaccessible to the message.

Just don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, that’s my message, that’s all.

 

[Julia1]

Amen. And, let’s not forget that the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved, which is what we are talking about here, did not come into being until Martin (I can commit Adultry 100 times a day and still be saved ) Luther came up with it in the 1500’s.

Typical if you reside in Catholic Make-Believers La-La Land.

In John 3:15, he states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will “have eternal life.”. So what, exactly, did he mean?

 

[bekalc]

Believers. I think the gospel message IS preached in mass. What do you think the Church is saying in the liturgy when they sin (Jesus Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us!) The mass is all about proclaiming Christ crucified and how HE is the means of salvation…

I know this because I went to mass as an Evangelical a year and a half ago. I remember I was angry because so many of my Catholic family members were well non practicing Catholics, and then I sat in and listened to mass, and I was bowled away.

What came through to me right there is that no one who goes to mass really does have an excuse, because it is the Gospel they are teaching. It is being proclaimed. Now does the Catholic Church have altar calls? No… For theological reasons I’m sure and also because they are kind of new in the grand scheme of things…But Catholics do hear the gospel message when they go to mass…

I know that in my Church the priest really stresses a personal relationship with Christ, so they are trying to push people towards it.

The issue I think is that one Catholicism is very old and it is cultural 2. People are saved through God’s grace. Its’ the Holy Spirit who draws and convicts people…

 

[Eden]

Julia1:

In John 3:15, he states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will “have eternal life.”. So what, exactly, did he mean?

I have been saved. I am being saved. I will be saved. We must make a conscious choice to believe that “Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior” - every day, not just once.

You can find lots of information about Salvation here:

www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html

“Is Salvation an Act or a Process?”

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502sbs.asp

“Assurance of Salvation?”

catholic.com/library/assurance_of_salvation.asp

“Once Saved, Always Saved?”

catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0203sbs.asp

Typical if you reside in Catholic Make-Believers La-La Land.

Is this your Christian witness? Whatever you are representing, I don’t want to be a part of it.

 

[believers]

Tonks40:

From reading your last couple of posts begs the following questions: Is it the people in the Church that made you leave? Seeing the majority of Catholics with their lukewarm or nearly-non-existent belief in the salvation Christ promised us? Seeing them dedicate only an hour of their time to the Lord instead of seeing them live the life of Christ full-time?

(sorry for the off-topic)

Tonks, that’s interesting… I actually told someone recently how I felt so many Catholics were lukewarm about their salvation. I don’t blame the people as much as I blame the church. As a kid I went to CCD, but most of my friends did not. Catholic by birth if you will. I really mean baptism but you get what I mean. I think the truth/faith got diluted thru the generations. Somehow going to church on Sunday for an hour was good enough. That’s why I think there needs to be some sort of a wake up call to inform those who are lukewarm.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

That’s why I think there needs to be some sort of a wake up call to inform those who are lukewarm.

Just for clarification, when you say wake up call do you mean trying to get them out of the Catholic Church? Maybe you said it somewhere else but I couldn’t find what your plan was to wake the lukewarm Catholics up.

God Bless

 

[jimmy]

Julia1:

Amen. And, let’s not forget that the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved, which is what we are talking about here, did not come into being until Martin (I can commit Adultry 100 times a day and still be saved ) Luther came up with it in the 1500’s.

Typical if you reside in Catholic Make-Believers La-La Land.

In John 3:15, he states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will “have eternal life.”. So what, exactly, did he mean?

The exact quote from verse 14 and 15 is: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him, may not perish; but may have life everlasting. He says that the Son of man must be lifted up that those who believe may be saved. He does not say they will be saved. What Christ does is make salvation possible to man, He doesn’t make it gauranteed.

That doesn’t mention once saved always saved. Jesus also says that those who do good works will be saved and those who do bad works will go to hell in Matt.25. He told the rich man that he must give up everything in order to recieve the kingdom of heaven. Then when the rich man walked away depressed Christ said, ‘Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ [Matt.19] James says, Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?’ [James2] He also says, ‘Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?’ [James2] Paul says in 1Cor.13 that if you have faith without Charity you have nothing and he says that Charity is greater than faith. Hebrews10 says that if a man sins willfully after coming to the faith there is no sacrifice left for him. This Hebrews quote is pretty big too; it teaches that a man can have salvation and then sin and lose it. Uh, Oh. What did they mean?

As it was said before, OSAS is a doctrine of men and it was never taught by anyone until the reformation.

 

[jimmy]

believers:

Tonks, that’s interesting… I actually told someone recently how I felt so many Catholics were lukewarm about their salvation. I don’t blame the people as much as I blame the church. As a kid I went to CCD, but most of my friends did not. Catholic by birth if you will. I really mean baptism but you get what I mean. I think the truth/faith got diluted thru the generations. Somehow going to church on Sunday for an hour was good enough. That’s why I think there needs to be some sort of a wake up call to inform those who are lukewarm.

I agree with this. I would say that the bishops need to be firm and say that Sunday is not a your free ticket. Sunday should spread through the week so that you live a constant life for Christ.