Why have Evangelicals allied themselves with Israel & Zionists?

[lcalise]

JSmitty2005:

Why have Evangelicals allied themselves so closely with the Zionist Jews? I don’t understand this. Christians in the Holy Land have more favorable views of Muslims than they do Jews, so why do these American Christians feel so drawn to them?

If that were true, why are we always asked to buy stuff in support of Christians in Palestinian controlled areas to keep them from leaving/ help them protect their churches?

Palestinians, in general, are horrible to Christians… actually, the entire Muslim world is pretty awful to Christians. In Albania, the Christians were prohibited from building a statue of Mary by the muslim majority. In Egypt, Christians have to live in garbage (I’ve been there… decaying cow carcass… that’s all I’ll say about that.) Nevermind that whole situation in Afghanistan and Sharia law for apostates!

I think that non-apocolype-seeking Evangelicals support Israel for more pragmatic reasons, not necessarily stemming from faith similarities. Israel is THE democracy in the middle east. Jews don’t persecute Christians (maybe in some respects, but not to the extent that Islamic countries do). Israel has freedom of the press, assembly, etc. In other words, it’s not about faith, but Israel is more akin to spreading the Gospel.

 

[JSmitty2005]

lcalise:

Palestinians, in general, are horrible to Christians… actually, the entire Muslim world is pretty awful to Christians.

Don’t equate Palestinian and Muslim. The only Christians in the Holy Land are Palestinians.

Jews don’t persecute Christians (maybe in some respects, but not to the extent that Islamic countries do).

I disagree. Catholics and Jews have not been able to get along for 2000 years. In fact, statistics show that Christians in the Holy Land have a *very * unfavorable view of Jews.

 

[pro_universal]

lcalise:

If that were true, why are we always asked to buy stuff in support of Christians in Palestinian controlled areas to keep them from leaving/ help them protect their churches?

Palestinians, in general, are horrible to Christians… actually, the entire Muslim world is pretty awful to Christians. In Albania, the Christians were prohibited from building a statue of Mary by the muslim majority. In Egypt, Christians have to live in garbage (I’ve been there… decaying cow carcass… that’s all I’ll say about that.) Nevermind that whole situation in Afghanistan and Sharia law for apostates!

I think that non-apocolype-seeking Evangelicals support Israel for more pragmatic reasons, not necessarily stemming from faith similarities. Israel is THE democracy in the middle east. Jews don’t persecute Christians (maybe in some respects, but not to the extent that Islamic countries do). Israel has freedom of the press, assembly, etc. In other words, it’s not about faith, but Israel is more akin to spreading the Gospel.

That is simply not true. The Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza has been pure torture for the Christians and Muslims both who live there. That’s why they are united in their opposition to the occupation, and that’s why Israel doesn’t do any special favors for Palestinian Christians…because all Palestinians are a threat to the illegal settlements, not just muslims.

Here’s a good link on this:
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4823042.stm

 

[lcalise]

pro_universal:

That is simply not true. The Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza has been pure torture for the Christians and Muslims both who live there. That’s why they are united in their opposition to the occupation, and that’s why Israel doesn’t do any special favors for Palestinian Christians…because all Palestinians are a threat to the illegal settlements, not just muslims.

Here’s a good link on this:
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4823042.stm

Occupation is a subjective "fightin’ " word. Technically, all Americans are occupiers of Native American lands by your definition. And, if you go back enough, anyone can be the occupier of anyone else’s land. The Palestinians lost the war… get over it for the purpose of discussing world affairs. And there’s no such thing as an ‘illegal’ settlement’. It could be a settlement that should be under another governing authority, but not ‘illegal’.

Yes, the Palestinian Christians don’t like Israel because Israel can’t separate its defensive/offensive actions between peaceful Palestinians and violent Palestinians. The wall sucks for them… but that’s not the only issue that makes life crappy for them. Again, I point to church/ business burnings and the treatment of apostates.

But, again, the question wasn’t whether Palestinian Christians support Israel, but why Evangelicals do. From an ideological perspective, Israel is more conducive towards ‘evangelization’ than any other Middle Eastern country. Do you disagree?

Btw, I tried googling “Persecution of Palestinian Christians” and it had some good links both anti-Palestinian authority and anti-Israel. Basically, I conclude the Palestinian Christians just get screwed over big time by both groups.

 

[Alfie]

JSmitty2005:

Don’t equate Palestinian and Muslim. The only Christians in the Holy Land are Palestinians.

I disagree. Catholics and Jews have not been able to get along for 2000 years. In fact, statistics show that Christians in the Holy Land have a *very * unfavorable view of Jews.

There is no such thing as a Palestinian. Palestine was a word coined by the Romans for the area of land that today is known as the Holy Land.

 

[pro_universal]

lcalise:

Occupation is a subjective "fightin’ " word. Technically, all Americans are occupiers of Native American lands by your definition. And, if you go back enough, anyone can be the occupier of anyone else’s land. The Palestinians lost the war… get over it for the purpose of discussing world affairs. And there’s no such thing as an ‘illegal’ settlement’. It could be a settlement that should be under another governing authority, but not ‘illegal’.

Uh, yes, it is illegal. Israel signed the Geneva conventions. There is such a thing as international law, and those conventions that Israel agreed to forbid, for any reason, the annexation of territory captured by war.

As for your historical argument, a better comparison isn’t America, where there are almost no natives left to contest the situation, but rather South Africa. There, a different ethnic group occupied the land and decided that they would get all the resources and do whatever they wished to the losing group. Is that Justice?

lcalise:

Yes, the Palestinian Christians don’t like Israel because Israel can’t separate its defensive/offensive actions between peaceful Palestinians and violent Palestinians. The wall sucks for them… but that’s not the only issue that makes life crappy for them. Again, I point to church/ business burnings and the treatment of apostates.

This is quite wrong. They don’t like Israel because Israel seized their land, and started building settlements on it, while demolishing Palestinian homes in the process. The idea that the occupation of Palestinian areas is only for security is pure mythology; there are now 400,000 Israelis settled into large housing developments in the West Bank. That’s what angers Palestinian Christians and Muslims, the illegal land grab.

lcalise:

But, again, the question wasn’t whether Palestinian Christians support Israel, but why Evangelicals do. From an ideological perspective, Israel is more conducive towards ‘evangelization’ than any other Middle Eastern country. Do you disagree?

Evangelicals support Israel because they do not care what happens to the Catholic and Orthodox Palestinians. They’d rather have their twisted apocalyptic visions fulfilled, than see Justice for fellow worshippers of Jesus.

Certainly, Israel allows people to evangelize more than any other middle eastern country. That doesn’t give it the right to take people’s homes away, drop bombs on crowded neighborhoods, or violate well settled principles of law.

lcalise:

Btw, I tried googling “Persecution of Palestinian Christians” and it had some good links both anti-Palestinian authority and anti-Israel. Basically, I conclude the Palestinian Christians just get screwed over big time by both groups.

The entire situation is a direct result of the Israeli occupation of that land. The Palestinian Authority has been oppressing muslims just the same as Christians, and that’s why the ruling party just lost the elections. But this wouldn’t even be an issue if there were no occupation in the first place.

Israel has no right to drop bombs on Palestinian neighborhoods, or to build houses in the post 1967 territories. Its gross disregard for human rights is something no Catholic should ignore, not only because there are members of our own Church suffering as a consequence, but because we are to demand justice for all people of all faiths.

 

[lcalise]

JSmitty2005:

Don’t equate Palestinian and Muslim. The only Christians in the Holy Land are Palestinians.

I’m sorry, what I meant to say was ‘the Palestinians’ in relation to the governing authorities, both official and unofficial.

I disagree. Catholics and Jews have not been able to get along for 2000 years. In fact, statistics show that Christians in the Holy Land have a *very * unfavorable view of Jews.

Let’s face it, any group that has power and is in the majority has a propensity toward some kind of negative prejudice: sexism, racism, religious intolerance, etc.

If you put it in a historical context, Catholics haven’t gotten along with anyone… ever.

I also think that having an unfavorable view of Jews is a really bigoted thing at face value. Could you provide links to those stats that give context?

 

[lcalise]

pro_universal:

This is quite wrong. They don’t like Israel because Israel seized their land, and started building settlements on it, while demolishing Palestinian homes in the process.

Could you reference/ document this? You provided a link about the wall, and I’ve only ever heard of Israelis demolishing homes as a defensive action, albeit maybe too extreme, against people like Hamas members.

That’s what angers Palestinian Christians and Muslims, the illegal land grab.

To some extent, probably, but just don’t try and portray Palestinian Christians as brothers in arms with Palestinian Muslims. I’ve seen the way Christians are treated in the Middle East, and that would certainly be a ridiculous notion.

Evangelicals support Israel because they do not care what happens to the Catholic and Orthodox Palestinians. They’d rather have their twisted apocalyptic visions fulfilled, than see Justice for fellow worshippers of Jesus.

That’s not true at all! How many Evangelicals have you asked about this issue? I had discussions like this with Evangelical/ other Christians and they absolutely care about ALL Christians in the Middle East. That is why they support Israel because it doesn’t demand second class citizenry for Christians and death or imprisonment for Muslim apostates!

Certainly, Israel allows people to evangelize more than any other middle eastern country. That doesn’t give it the right to take people’s homes away, drop bombs on crowded neighborhoods, or violate well settled principles of law…But this wouldn’t even be an issue if there were no occupation in the first place.

Just wondering, what is your alternative? Give all lands to the Palestinians? How would that be good for Christianity in the Middle East? I can appreciate the argument that founding Israel and the annexation were not justified… but since they happened, what’s the alternative?

The Palestinian Authority has been oppressing muslims just the same as Christians, and that’s why the ruling party just lost the elections.

Hamas won. Hamas Hamas that espouses the extremist view of just treatment for non-Muslims. I think you should be more concerned about what that entails for the future of Palestinian Christians than whether a Christian might become collateral damage in an Israeli military op.

Its gross disregard for human rights

…you mean like freedom of religion, that human right that every other middle eastern country denies its citizens in some capacity or another?

I guess, I appreciate your argument against Israel as a “coulda, woulda, shoulda” but not for moving forward.

 

[JSmitty2005]

lcalise:

I also think that having an unfavorable view of Jews is a really bigoted thing at face value. Could you provide links to those stats that give context?

The Church has never had a favorable view of any non-Catholic religion. Even those religions like Protestantism and Orthodoxy that we share many things with are not means of salvation nor truth in its entirety. In the words of Augustine:

“In many things they [the heretics] are with me, in a few things they are not with me; but in the few things which they are not with me the many things in which they are will not profit them.”

Pope Leo XIII even uses this quote in his encyclical Satis Cognitum. As for a link, here ya go:

socrates58.blogspot.com/2005_07_10_socrates58_archive.html#112153599687364934

The Jews are enemies of God and foes of our holy religion.

 

[lcalise]

The Jews are enemies of God and foes of our holy religion.

I strongly disagree. Judaism is our heritage. Jesus, Elijah, Moses, John the Baptist, Peter: all Jews.

Jews are not ‘enemies’ of God. Jews may oppose God’s Church, but it is because of their 'stubbornness ’ as Pope Gregory put it. As Judaism is not an evangelizing religion, I dare say it is no more threat than any other religion.

And don’t forget that most Jews (especially Orthodox) truly believe they are living the convenant. They just don’t know God the Son. They need the prayers and ministry of Christians-- not condemnation.

 

[JSmitty2005]

lcalise:

I strongly disagree. Judaism is our heritage. Jesus, Elijah, Moses, John the Baptist, Peter: all Jews.

Jews are not ‘enemies’ of God. Jews may oppose God’s Church, but it is because of their 'stubbornness ’ as Pope Gregory put it. As Judaism is not an evangelizing religion, I dare say it is no more threat than any other religion.

And don’t forget that most Jews (especially Orthodox) truly believe they are living the convenant. They just don’t know God the Son. They need the prayers and ministry of Christians-- not condemnation.

Those were not my words. This guy said it :

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

From what I understand, he was a pretty holy fellow. In fact, I do believe him to be a saint (which means that none of his writings may be contrary to the Faith.)

 

[Eden]

Alfie:

Someday Jesus will return and rule the world for a thousand years from Jerusalem. God promised the Jews that someday they would return to their God given land.

There are those who believe that before the end the Jews will be gathered again out of all the nations among which they are scattered and have the promised land once possessed by their ancestors restored to them. In favor of this opinion they quote such predictions from the Old Testament as that of Isaiah: “He (God) shall assemble the fugitives of Israel and shall gather together the dispersed of Judah, from the four quarters of the earth” (Isa. 11:12). But where Jewish Zionists give these passages a political interpretation, the much more likely one is a spiritual interpretation. This would not exclude the actual return of a representative section of the Jews to the Holy Land, but it rather looks forward to a return of the Jewish people everywhere to the true “Israel,” the fold of which Christ is the Shepherd, and whom they should have recognized as their predicted Messiah. The modern Zionist movement, which is political rather than religious, should not, therefore, be regarded as being the fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah nor as having significance as one of the signs directing our attention toward the end of human history.

catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9801clas.asp

 

[lcalise]

JSmitty2005:

Those were not my words. This guy said it :

Can you get the quote in context? And also, there are few saints who justified only ordaining men because women were inferior. Just because a saint said it doesn’t make it right (or something I have to believe)

 

[JSmitty2005]

lcalise:

Can you get the quote in context?

I’ll look into it.

And also, there are few saints who justified only ordaining men because women were inferior. Just because a saint said it doesn’t make it right (or something I have to believe)

I know this but holding this belief is not contrary to the Catholic Faith. Otherwise he would not be a saint.

 

[Fredricks]

I am not following you Smitty, I just saw you posted on this and I wanted to see your views on this:

VATICAN CITY, JAN. 16, 2006 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI talked of the Church’s love for the Jewish people when he received the chief rabbi of Rome in audience.

“Shalom!” was the greeting the Pope expressed today when welcoming Rabbi Riccardo Di Segni and a Jewish delegation, on the eve of Italy’s national day to further Catholic-Jewish dialogue.

“The Catholic Church is close to you and is your friend,” the Holy Father told the rabbi. “Yes, we love you and cannot but love you, ‘through the Fathers.’”

Benedict XVI stressed that “we cannot fail to denounce and fight firmly against the hatred and misunderstanding, the injustice and violence that continue to worry the soul of men and women of good will.”

He added: “How can we not be pained and concerned over the renewal of manifestations of anti-Semitism?”

For his part, the Jewish representative invited Benedict XVI to visit Rome’s main synagogue, on the 20th anniversary of Pope John Paul II’s historic visit to that temple, on April 13, 1986.

Solidarity

In the audience, Benedict XVI observed: “Many are the needs and challenges of Rome and the world, which invite us to unite our hands and hearts in concrete initiatives of solidarity, ‘tzede’ [justice] and ‘tzedekah’ [charity].”

You would agree with Pope Benedict on this.
YOu guys do realize this thread is Catholics arguing over interpretation, of course you are not starting different churches, well the traditionalists are though, but still I seriously thought you guys had an infallible interpreter over these kind of issues. I would think the whole Jewish question would be infallibly resolved by now. I think the present Pope is right about what he is saying. Anti-Semitism has no place in Christianity.

 

[JSmitty2005]

“For *you suffer…from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus * and the prophets and persecuted us; they do not please God, and are opposed to everyone.” (1 Thess. 2:14-15)

 

[Fredricks]

“For *you suffer…from the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus * and the prophets and persecuted us; they do not please God, and are opposed to everyone.” (1 Thess. 2:14-15)

Context, please. Paul was a Jew. Obviously he is referring to specific group and not including himself Jsmitty. You would agree with that?

 

[JSmitty2005]

Fredricks:

YOu guys do realize this thread is Catholics arguing over interpretation, of course you are not starting different churches, well the traditionalists are though, but still I seriously thought you guys had an infallible interpreter over these kind of issues. I would think the whole Jewish question would be infallibly resolved by now. I think the present Pope is right about what he is saying. Anti-Semitism has no place in Christianity.

It would be impossible for traditionalists to “start a different church” considering that they refuse to change the Church’s teachings! The Church has addressed the Jews many times. Anti-Semitism can have a subjective definition.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Fredricks:

Context, please. Paul was a Jew. Obviously he is referring to specific group and not including himself Jsmitty. You would agree with that?

There is a key word in what you wrote. Can you find it?

 

[Fredricks]

JSmitty2005:

It would be impossible for traditionalists to “start a different church” considering that they refuse to change the Church’s teachings! The Church has addressed the Jews many times. Anti-Semitism can have a subjective definition.

Ok, I am…going to shut up I suppose. This has been interesting to say the least! I learn more everyday.