Why is Catholic Bashing soooo popular?

[Katrina5]

“There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church, which is, of course, quite a different thing”. - Fulton Sheen

It is very telling that people who convert do so after extensive studying and reading (that is of course barring those who have had mystical experiences like Alphonse Ratisbone).

So what does that say about the Catholic Faith? Perhaps the Faith of the rational and the well-informed?

Thank you! Somehow I knew you would have that exact quote.
When my sister said something last year about Catholics who want to go back to superstitious, bead-clicking,pre Vatican II, I said, “The Church has something for everyone. It includes people who are only capable of sub-cortical thinking, all the way to deeply intellectual and gifted people like Benedict XVI.”
I didn’t mean “cafeteria Catholics”, by the way, who pick and choose what they want to believe. I meant that not everyone can understand fine points of dogma, etc. But there is a place for everyone at the Lord’s table. And there is a place for emotions, since our emotions are part of our make-up.
She never cared for "mushy, syrupy sweet and/or 19th Century Romaticism " style of art either. Now, about a year later, she and her family have joined a beautiful old church in downtown Joliet. She doesn’t agree with everyone or anything, but she is “home” there and she even teaches Catechism classes.
We are both realizing a new appreciation for the pre-Vatican II Church. In fact, it was Vatican II that made me so confused (too much, too fast, too free) that I left the convent and just stopped going to Mass for about 10 years. (A revised missalette every week, banners-- burlap and felt-- everywhere, and some of the worst music ever-- I was overwhelmed.) There has to be a happy medium, and I think it is taking place without a complete reversal.
We have tentative plans to collaborate on some sort of workbook to help people sort out their own Journeys of Faith.
A recent study at Purdue University (Sociology Dept.) found that there actually is a correlation between people who convert to Catholism and people who leave the church for more simplified fundamentalist churches and (how can I say this) ability to question and think. Perhaps this is what you referred to above.
Read G.K.Chesterton’s Orthodoxy and… oh, wait. You already have, haven’t you?
I am so thankful that I am a Catholic. The Church is a never-ending Treasure. I sometimes feel like ‘I can’t hold [it] close enough.’

 

[Peccavi]

I am one of those Vatican II Catholics who now feel out of step with the present day trends. That’s fine. I never liked being trendy. But I believe I’m just as bad at being a real Christian as the rest of you out there, in need of absolution for my sins and receiving the body of Christ in the Mass. But lets me be perfectly honest, what language I receive it in - New Testament Aramaic or Greek, Medieval Latin, English, Welsh, Rusian, Italian etc. is of no matter. In my line of work its not only Catholics who take a bashing but all Christians. Cardinal Cormac Murphy said only this week being a Christian in the UK is now seen (by the media and the majority of the population) as being weird. We are now a fully secular society where over 80% of people do not go to church. Holding the line for Christ is hard and being made harder every day. Where I live use to be a Catholic part of my country, now its the devils playground with churches turn into nightlubs and chapels into carpet warehouses. The few Christians left spend a lotof time attacking each other - much to the amusement of the militant aetheists now on the offensive. A bleak picure ? Yep! No doubt some US expert will tell me what I see is all imagined. (And this from the land that gave us Hollywood !! )No frankly I don’t care whose Vatican I or Vatican II anymore,there has to be a place for all of us in the universal Church. As Jesus said in God’s house there are many rooms.

 

[Katrina5]

I am one of those Vatican II Catholics who now feel out of step with the present day trends. That’s fine. I never liked being trendy. But I believe I’m just as bad at being a real Christian as the rest of you out there, in need of absolution for my sins and receiving the body of Christ in the Mass. But lets me be perfectly honest, what language I receive it in - New Testament Aramaic or Greek, Medieval Latin, English, Welsh, Rusian, Italian etc. is of no matter. In my line of work its not only Catholics who take a bashing but all Christians. Cardinal Cormac Murphy said only this week being a Christian in the UK is now seen (by the media and the majority of the population) as being weird. We are now a fully secular society where over 80% of people do not go to church. Holding the line for Christ is hard and being made harder every day. Where I live use to be a Catholic part of my country, now its the devils playground with churches turn into nightlubs and chapels into carpet warehouses. The few Christians left spend a lotof time attacking each other - much to the amusement of the militant aetheists now on the offensive. A bleak picure ? Yep! No doubt some US expert will tell me what I see is all imagined. (And this from the land that gave us Hollywood !! )No frankly I don’t care whose Vatican I or Vatican II anymore,there has to be a place for all of us in the universal Church. As Jesus said in God’s house there are many rooms.

If you can get EWTN, Eternal Word Television Network where you are, there are some great programs, The Journey Home with Marcus Grodi has been taping from the Newman Oratory in London. I’m not sure where that is located, and I’ve been to London (back in the 1980’s and 1990’s). He interviews people who were other faiths, and they describe their journeys home to Roman Catholicism.
I found that while I was in the UK, I had a hard time distinguishing which churches, abbeys etc were Catholic. I have heard that the UK is un-Christian, and un-Catholic.
It could have the same root of the Vatican II problem, but if you are young, you don’t remember pre-Vatican II.
Things were quite different. Vatican II was supposed to “open the windows and let in the fresh air” to a stuffy old Church. Something went awry because a cyclone came in and destroyed much of what was beautiful about the stuffy old Church. We lost a lot of Catholics because of this “uglification”.
In the US, we have a Baptist preacher who has tried over and over to evangelize Europe and the UK. Billy Graham is a nice man, but his style is very Southern and, frankly just hearng him speak is like fingernails on a blackboard to me. And the shouting and waving, rock music-- ugh! He claims to have “converted” many British people.
The sad thing about American Protestant Evangelicals is that they don’t realize most countries already have a Church. I also know people who went to Central America (already Catholic by the Spanish) and Ukraine (Eastern Rite). They try to make them into Southern Baptists and are dismayed when they are booted out by the locals.
It saddens me to hear that church buildings etc are being made into such ‘dens of iniquity’. I was amazed as we traveled through the UK at learning how quickly the monasteries were dismantled by Henry VIII. But I was fascinated by the history and my trips to Europe helped get me back to my faith, by the art, architecture, and the fact that every time we stepped into a Cathedral (many times!!) there was something happening-- choir practice, a service, prayer groups, just a lot of activity. It was wonderful.
I have yet to visit Rome, and I have read that Moslems are overtaking all of Europe. That happened once before, you know. It started the Crusades. Now we are being forced to accept them as ‘just another denomination’, which they are not.
May God bless you! Dont give up.

 

[distracted]

1. Cuz it’s EASY. As a former Catholic basher, I can say with all conviction that Catholics are EASY targets. I can say, really, whatever degrading awful things I want to say to you (and I HAVE said them) and you can’t say boo back to me because then you aren’t being ‘christ-like’. See how easy? It’s like kicking a puppy.
2. It’s fun. I’ll be having a conversation with some ill-informed catholic and I can run circles around them philosophically. It’s not that I’m smarter than them, that’s not it at all, they just don’t know their faith. it’s like kicking a dumb puppy.
3. Nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd. If everyone is bashing catholics, surely I can, too.
4. (And this is one that Catholics need to take a good listen to) They’re weak. They shouldn’t be, mind you. They’ve got truth on their side, and in the end, what else matters besides that, right, but Catholics have NO IDEA what they’ve got, and they WASTE it, absolutely waste it. They lack conviction. They lack a SPINE. They lack unity. A house divided and all…

Hmmm… Who would know better than you?

and i was going to say… Ignorance…

It’s not that???

 

[Chrystal]

This…and the fact that today’s society is afraid of the Truth - they don’t want to know and/or hear about not being able to engage in mindless orgies, to have sex rule your life, to have to observe and respect the Sabbath Day, that Christmas really ISN’T all about presents, etc., etc., etc.

PEOPLE WANT THE EASY WAY OUT - it’s human nature, unfortunately.

I agree with what you said. because at one point, I have definitely heard someone say that the Catholic Church is “too strict.”

 

[sauce]

Agree. People have fallen in love with sin. And they don’t want to be told their wrong. Mention holiness and they look at you as though you are out of touch, from another planet, or truly square. And if you don’t sleep around you’re odd.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Anyone who has read more than a dozen post on ***CA Forum ***is aware of the intensity of “Catholic Bashing.”

Why do you think this is?

God bless,

• PJM m.c.

• A lot is not - it may be disagreement with an excessively narrow understanding of Catholicism. Criticising EWTN is not of itself Catholic-bashing.​

• Ultramontanism is not Catholicism, despite the attempts of some Ultramontanes to equate the two. Criticising Ultramontanism is not of itself Catholic-bashing.
• Clericalism is not Catholicism, so criticising it is not, etc.
  For non-Catholics to disagree with Catholicism is not of itself Catholic-bashing - some is, some is not. It is simply unrealistic to expect other Christians to be much interested in Catholicism when they are content in their own form of discipleship. There is such a thing as respectful disagreement. Americans don’t seem terribly good at compromise; they seem to be absolutists instead, so that - for them - there is no middle way between complete agreement & complete disagreement. If this is true, it needs taking into account. Or again, maybe people are objecting to real evils in Catholicism.

There is such a thing as Catholic-bashing, but:

• it must not be exaggerated, nor seen where it is not; and
• some of it is no more than people repaying insult for insult - Catholicism is more than capable of being obnoxious to others, so we can hardly complain if we reap the reward of our sins or the sins of previous generations.

 

[Cinette]

It is only on these forums that I have found myself lashing out and bashing the bashers.

Never before have I EVER dared to act in this mannar - ever.

It is not elegant. It is not nice. I have always respected the other person’s views and vice versa.

Of course when one is talking anonymously one can afford to be a little bolder but does it need to be this way?

The truth is that since time immemorial Protestants have bashed Catholics - they are made that way. Heaps of books have been written attacking the Church. I challenged on another thread for someone to give the title of a single book written by a Catholic attacking, lieing and insulting Protestantism. I am not referring to books that might be defending the truth. No, one single book where Catholics have gone out their way (as do Protestants) to crush, destroy, attack Protestants.

Hey having said this I do love Protestants. They keep us on our toes. They make the most awsome converts. They are simply wonderful. I have even considered that maybe the H Spirit had a hand in it so that there is permanent tension. Tension is good for growth.

Maybe someone on this thread can answer that.

 

[Light_Seeker]

Catholic bashing is so popular only because its so easy …

The ‘average’ Joe Catholic is usually very weak on catechism, and even weaker on scripture knowledge. Today, being a holy day for immaculate conception, proves the point. You would be amazed how many Catholics confuse this with the Virgin birth.

So any Protestant can come along & baffle an under-educated Catholic with Scripture from Romans 5:12, Luke 1:47, or the translation of “Full of Grace” instead of “Most Favored”. Average Joe Catholic doesn’t know how to respond. But worse, may think the challenger has a valid point.

Most of the usual anti-Catholic challenges are 1 or 2 liner’s out of scripture, rehearsed to prove their point. Unfortunately, it takes much time, effort, and a good understanding of Scripture, theology, Church Fathers, and Church history to correct these misunderstandings. Which most Protestant apologists will not be patient with, but instead barrage the Catholic with Scripture readings in a shotgun blast style of everything they may disagree with Catholicism.

Also, consider many of our public political ‘Good Catholics’, like the Kennedy’s, Maria Shriver, Nancy Peloski, Joe Biden, John Kerry, Rudy Guilliani, etc. Everyone of these politicians, while claiming to be a ‘Good Catholic’, have repeatably publicly violated, or opposed, major tenets & teachings of the faith. Its no wonder that this form of cafeteria Catholicism, often unchecked by our Bishops, has resulted in the majority of Catholics voting for a pro-death candidate instead of a pro-life. As these political Catholics have demonstrated, there are few repercussions from the Church when you pick & choose your faith. Leading to any non-Catholic to observe a dissident weakness of our faith.

 

[Cinette]

Catholic bashing is so popular only because its so easy …

The ‘average’ Joe Catholic is usually very weak on catechism, and even weaker on scripture knowledge. Today, being a holy day for immaculate conception, proves the point. You would be amazed how many Catholics confuse this with the Virgin birth.

So any Protestant can come along & baffle an under-educated Catholic with Scripture from Romans 5:12, Luke 1:47, or the translation of “Full of Grace” instead of “Most Favored”. Average Joe Catholic doesn’t know how to respond. But worse, may think the challenger has a valid point.

Most of the usual anti-Catholic challenges are 1 or 2 liner’s out of scripture, rehearsed to prove their point. Unfortunately, it takes much time, effort, and a good understanding of Scripture, theology, Church Fathers, and Church history to correct these misunderstandings. Which most Protestant apologists will not be patient with, but instead barrage the Catholic with Scripture readings in a shotgun blast style of everything they may disagree with Catholicism.

Also, consider many of our public political ‘Good Catholics’, like the Kennedy’s, Maria Shriver, Nancy Peloski, Joe Biden, John Kerry, Rudy Guilliani, etc. Everyone of these politicians, while claiming to be a ‘Good Catholic’, have repeatably publicly violated, or opposed, major tenets & teachings of the faith. Its no wonder that this form of cafeteria Catholicism, often unchecked by our Bishops, has resulted in the majority of Catholics voting for a pro-death candidate instead of a pro-life. As these political Catholics have demonstrated, there are few repercussions from the Church when you pick & choose your faith. Leading to any non-Catholic to observe a dissident weakness of our faith.

*Someone on another thread make an excellent point. She said that it has been noted that in more orthodox Catholic Communities - Catholics who do not compromise their faith - there have been many more vocations. I am a revert and am learning more about the Church daily and find it terrible exciting and it gives me hope and makes me happier than I have ever been. It is so rich.

*

 

[Cinette]

Light Seeker!

I have been to the other thread and copied the posting I was thinking about - it is so good and I want to share it with you. I hope I don’t get bashed on the head for “copyright” infringement!! Here goes:

The Church is not here to tell the people what they don’t want to hear. If that were the case, we would not have a God who died hanging on a cross.

The Church is meant to go against the grain, to follow the narrow path.

Yesterday, I was reading Ecclesiasticus 6 about speaking your truth and not being mealy mouthed about it.

I think Pope Benedict is changing that now. He is not much for large but lukewarm memberships. He is quite happy I think to have a smaller but fervent Church. Only this kind of Church can truly speak to the world about Christ. Anything else is a Church of compromise and one cannot compromise with the world.

We should not allow what has happened to the protestant Churches to happen to the Catholic Church. Sure they have a lot of members, but only because they cater to the worldly whims of the population. They allowed the world to evangelize them rather than them evangelizing the world.

It must be noted that in American diocesses that are more orthodox, there is an actual growth in vocations to the priesthood. It is those that have compromised their Catholicism that have declining numbers in the seminary.

We must not be afraid to proclaim the hard and sometimes unpalatable Truth.

---

Isn’t that something to contemplate. Isn’t that so true?

Good night - I am off to bed

Cheers
Cinette

 

[Light_Seeker]

Cinette, thanks for re-posting this excellent thread!

And I whole-heartily agree about Pope Benedict. Several years ago I was concerned about the direction his leadership would take us, as it would be impossible to replace Pope JPII. However, after reading many of his books & teachings, I am more than overwhelmed on what a wonderful choice this has been for our Church at this present time. That it was truly the Holy Spirit in play,not just an election by Bishops!

I’ve noted that here in the US, some of the most popular & beloved Bishops are those which aren’t shy about proclaiming Catholic principles & teachings - taking the more ‘orthodox’ teaching as this post alludes to, and not compromising. These same dioceses have no problems with diminishing vocations … they’re building new seminaries! A wonderful example is Archbishop Chaput in Denver.

 

[sauce]

Getting rid of dead wood is never a bad idea. People play around with spirituality and think that’s OK. I heard Nancy Pelosi say something about St. Augustine in order to try to justify one of her far left leaning agendas. I almost gagged. I could tell that she couldn’t “talk” it if she had to. She was grasping at straws and name dropping, hoping it would justify/certify, legitimize her comments.
We’ve got to get beyond this sort of thing. We need to know the bible and the principles behind it. And then be unafraid to “talk” it.

 

[Light_Seeker]

Getting rid of dead wood is never a bad idea.

Well, I’m not sure that throwing the baby out with the bath water is the way to go either.

St. Paul rebuked St. Peter in Galatians for actions with the Gentiles. And of course Peter blundered with Jesus several times, ie the transfiguration, initially refusing Jesus washing his feet, walking on water (Peter sunk), cutting off the slave’s ear at the Lord’s arrest, and his repeated denial at the trial.

Good thing we didn’t get rid of that dead wood, St. Peter.

 

[Light_Seeker]

I heard Nancy Pelosi say something about St. Augustine in order to try to justify one of her far left leaning agendas. I almost gagged. I could tell that she couldn’t “talk” it if she had to. She was grasping at straws and name dropping, hoping it would justify/certify, legitimize her comments.

I’m with u, twas pathetic. Really glad a bunch of Bishop’s jumped on her for that outrage.

 

[Cinette]

Cinette, thanks for re-posting this excellent thread!

And I whole-heartily agree about Pope Benedict. Several years ago I was concerned about the direction his leadership would take us, as it would be impossible to replace Pope JPII. However, after reading many of his books & teachings, I am more than overwhelmed on what a wonderful choice this has been for our Church at this present time. That it was truly the Holy Spirit in play,not just an election by Bishops!

I’ve noted that here in the US, some of the most popular & beloved Bishops are those which aren’t shy about proclaiming Catholic principles & teachings - taking the more ‘orthodox’ teaching as this post alludes to, and not compromising. These same dioceses have no problems with diminishing vocations … they’re building new seminaries! A wonderful example is Archbishop Chaput in Denver.

Yes!
I live in S Africa and we get EWTN and I have seen his beautiful face and heard his comments and opinions. He is part American Indian is he not? Such a giant!

 

[Light_Seeker]

He is part American Indian is he not? Such a giant!

Hmmm, not sure about that, have never looked into it. I truly admire his leadership, intelligence, and absolutely no fear to present hard-line, undiluted, Catholicism!

I’m not in the Denver diocese. Only wish we could clone him 193 more times for every diocese in the States

 

[Cinette]

Hmmm, not sure about that, have never looked into it. I truly admire his leadership, intelligence, and absolutely no fear to present hard-line, undiluted, Catholicism!

I’m not in the Denver diocese. Only wish we could clone him 193 more times for every diocese in the States

That is how all Bishops should be - uncompromising and utterly faithful.

He is part Indian and has done a lot to serve the communities.

 

[benedictus2]

Hmmm, not sure about that, have never looked into it. I truly admire his leadership, intelligence, and absolutely no fear to present hard-line, undiluted, Catholicism!

I’m not in the Denver diocese. Only wish we could clone him 193 more times for every diocese in the States

We may not be able to clone him 193 times but our prayers for Bishops truly faithful to the Church will go a long way. We must never unders estimate the power of our prayers and our little mortifications and sacrifices.

In the end all that is required of us is prayer and a deep abididng trust in God. She is His Church and He knows what He is on about. If He allows certain things to come to pass it is all part of His plan. Perhaps to jog us all out of complacency.

He promised to be with Her till the end of time and so He will.

 

[Peccavi]

As a left leaning Catholic I have nothing in common with right leaning Catholics except a belief in Holy Mother Chruch and the egalitarianism of the mass. It’s not so much our Catholic faith that gets the bashing in Europe but social conservatism . Don’t confuse Catholic beliefs with reactionary politics - that’s been tried in Europe with Franco and Dolfuss and Petain. It ended in disaster.
As an example of what I mean…as a left leaning Catholic I am pro-life, therfore anti-abortion. At the same time, since only God gives and takes life, I am also pro-life and against capital punishment and pro-life as a pacifist against war - in all wars the innocent suffer and die. Partial anti-life Catholics who are ONLY anti-abortion cause me intellectual pain - pro-Life must mean Pro-Life - As we Catholics say - The Lord gives and THE LORD takes away, blessed be God forever.