Why is Catholic Bashing soooo popular?

[sauce]

Reality is not so black and white. Sometimes I wish it were.
Responding to life is a challenge. That’s never easy.

King David was the bloodiest man in the bible, and the bible tells us that he was a man after God’s own heart. That’s an eye opener.

So you know what, I still have to “discern” what’s happening right in front of my face on a daily basis. Reality demands it. Otherwise we wouldn’t need discernment or good judgement or wisdom for that matter. Reality is wonderful. Any pain involved is in us not reality. Tony De Mello’s idea not mine. None of this stuff is easy to chew on. Enter the din of battle and keep your heart at the lotus feet of the Lord. I believe St Joan must have done this.

 

[twb1621]

As a left leaning Catholic I have nothing in common with right leaning Catholics except a belief in Holy Mother Chruch and the egalitarianism of the mass. It’s not so much our Catholic faith that gets the bashing in Europe but social conservatism . Don’t confuse Catholic beliefs with reactionary politics - that’s been tried in Europe with Franco and Dolfuss and Petain. It ended in disaster.
As an example of what I mean…as a left leaning Catholic I am pro-life, therfore anti-abortion. At the same time, since only God gives and takes life, I am also pro-life and against capital punishment and pro-life as a pacifist against war - in all wars the innocent suffer and die. Partial anti-life Catholics who are ONLY anti-abortion cause me intellectual pain - pro-Life must mean Pro-Life - As we Catholics say - The Lord gives and THE LORD takes away, blessed be God forever.

Then why render yourself a lapsed Catholic when you could be serving our Lord by showing others your devotion.

 

[Salonika]

Gottle of Geer:

For non-Catholics to disagree with Catholicism is not of itself Catholic-bashing - some is, some is not.

Good point and one some Catholics forget. But this is also true of peole who follow other religions.

I certainly feel bashed (and stay away from some threads) because I have felt bashed for things I have not said.

An example on a thread about feminism when I was accused of supporting/promoting women becoming priests in the Catholic Church when I had deliberately stayed away from the topic.

It is simply unrealistic to expect other Christians to be much interested in Catholicism when they are content in their own form of discipleship. There is such a thing as respectful disagreement.

And also those who are of non-Christian religions or none.

Also think that some people (Catholic and other) fall into bashing when they cannot understand another person’s lack of interest or refusal to become believe in and become involved in something that is very, very important to them.

In this situation they need to remember that going on and on about it may put the other person off even more.

Americans don’t seem terribly good at compromise; they seem to be absolutists instead, so that - for them - there is no middle way between complete agreement & complete disagreement. If this is true, it needs taking into account. Or again, maybe people are objecting to real evils in Catholicism.

And also they may be unable to accept some aspects of Catholicism especially those they consider/have been brought up to believe are matters of individual conscience.

 

[Peccavi]

Why lapsed ? Because I find much of main stream modern Catholicism lacking in humanity. I am constantly reminded that ‘God so loved the world’ without any added qualifications. I am constantly drawn to the two great commandments
Love God
Love your neighbour as yourself.
And if my neigbour is gay, if she has had an abortion, if s/he is an atheist, a jew, a muslim etc. are they not my neigbour still ? Should I not love them as Christ commanded ? Love them in spite of what they have done ?
I find most Catholics today too judgemental, forgetful of Christs demand that we do not judge others. It is not for me to judge others.
I have a friend, an Orthodox Priest of the Syrian Rite, who works with paedophiles because no one else will. He believes in the possibility even in the depths of such evil for God’s grace to bring redemption. He is the best Christian I know. But many of you out there would hold that because he (and my Quaker friends) are not of the true church he is damned. Frankly I don’t believe you. God alone judges the living and the dead; God alone (with Christ) decides who will be with him in Paradise.
Why lapsed ? Because I fear the arrogance of the certainty so many of you display. I fear we are existing in a cosy self-righteous cul-de-sac full of ornament, without love.

 

[CWBetts]

Why lapsed ? Because I find much of main stream modern Catholicism lacking in humanity. I am constantly reminded that ‘God so loved the world’ without any added qualifications. I am constantly drawn to the two great commandments
Love God
Love your neighbour as yourself.
And if my neigbour is gay, if she has had an abortion, if s/he is an atheist, a jew, a muslim etc. are they not my neigbour still ? Should I not love them as Christ commanded ? Love them in spite of what they have done ?
I find most Catholics today too judgemental, forgetful of Christs demand that we do not judge others. It is not for me to judge others.
I have a friend, an Orthodox Priest of the Syrian Rite, who works with paedophiles because no one else will. He believes in the possibility even in the depths of such evil for God’s grace to bring redemption. He is the best Christian I know. But many of you out there would hold that because he (and my Quaker friends) are not of the true church he is damned. Frankly I don’t believe you. God alone judges the living and the dead; God alone (with Christ) decides who will be with him in Paradise.
Why lapsed ? Because I fear the arrogance of the certainty so many of you display. I fear we are existing in a cosy self-righteous cul-de-sac full of ornament, without love.

its called “love the sinner, hate the sin” Calling sin a sin is not judgemental. Abortion is murder, homosexual acts are a vile sexual sin. We must treat the people with love and respect, while not condoning their actions.

 

[benedictus2]

As a left leaning Catholic I have nothing in common with right leaning Catholics except a belief in Holy Mother Chruch and the egalitarianism of the mass. It’s not so much our Catholic faith that gets the bashing in Europe but social conservatism . Don’t confuse Catholic beliefs with reactionary politics - that’s been tried in Europe with Franco and Dolfuss and Petain. It ended in disaster.
As an example of what I mean…as a left leaning Catholic I am pro-life, therfore anti-abortion. At the same time, since only God gives and takes life, I am also pro-life and against capital punishment and pro-life as a pacifist against war - in all wars the innocent suffer and die. Partial anti-life Catholics who are ONLY anti-abortion cause me intellectual pain - pro-Life must mean Pro-Life - As we Catholics say - The Lord gives and THE LORD takes away, blessed be God forever.

I am 100% with you on this. The Catholic Church’s stand is the same. A group called St Egidio is calling for the abolition of capital punishment.

The Churchs’ stand is NO to abortion, capital punishment and war.

When you come to think of it the socialist idea of holding things in common was probably borrowed from the Church. Except that without the Holy Spirit, it got totally corrupted and became the devils tool instead.

 

[benedictus2]

Benedictus2,

I am in total agreement. Yet discernment has a lot to do with insight and awareness. I always look at people’s behavior. Or what it is they seem to be doing when they challenge you or attack.

Quite frankly, there’s a lot of cape waving going on. You know what I mean: they’re saying things which are really a distraction away form their behavior: kind of like “look over here, look over here.”
But they don’t want you to detect their intention or “dark need.”

That’s Satan’s tail.

 

[benedictus2]

Thank you! Somehow I knew you would have that exact quote.
When my sister said something last year about Catholics who want to go back to superstitious, bead-clicking,pre Vatican II, I said, “The Church has something for everyone. It includes people who are only capable of sub-cortical thinking, all the way to deeply intellectual and gifted people like Benedict XVI.” ’

Hhhmm. Superstitious bead clicking.

I must say I do not pray the rosary that often myself. I find it a difficult prayer in the sense that it takes me an hour to pray it.

The problem with people today is they are so used to instant gratification that prayer needs to be like that too. So meditation becomes popular as a way to distress but not to connect to God. Prayer then becomes a tribute to the unholy trinity of I, Me and Myself. Narcisism masquerading as holy spirituality.

Man demands too much “feeling” that when a prayer is arid it is considered useless. They need a feel good religion so yes please bring on Easter and let’s skip all that party pooper of a Good Friday and Black Saturday. Bring on the prosperity gospels.

The rosary is a beautiful prayer of aridity. It takes you out of yourself and makes you focus on Christ, on our salvation history.

Only those ignorant of its true power and meaning will denigrate it.

Then again, that is what Catholic bashing is all about. Ignorance.

 

[benedictus2]

We are both realizing a new appreciation for the pre-Vatican II Church. In fact, it was Vatican II that made me so confused (too much, too fast, too free) that I left the convent and just stopped going to Mass for about 10 years. ’

Actually, I think (but I am not sure on this), it is not so much Vatican II but how some quarters interpreted Vatican II.

When it called for grater participation of the laity at Mass, some assumed that every tom, **** and harry should be gathered around the altar.

I think what needs to be done is a re-reading of Vatican II that is truly faithful to the intent of its drafters.

In the 70’s we even had a full on band completely drums and electric guitar at Mass. It was so distracting. The Mass became a show.

It is interesting to note that in one of the mega churches in America, the head musician claims that the congregation comes not for the preaching but for the musical show he puts on. So much for coming to worhip Christ

 

[Cinette]

Why lapsed ? Because I find much of main stream modern Catholicism lacking in humanity. I am constantly reminded that ‘God so loved the world’ without any added qualifications. I am constantly drawn to the two great commandments
Love God
Love your neighbour as yourself.
And if my neigbour is gay, if she has had an abortion, if s/he is an atheist, a jew, a muslim etc. are they not my neigbour still ? Should I not love them as Christ commanded ? Love them in spite of what they have done ?
I find most Catholics today too judgemental, forgetful of Christs demand that we do not judge others. It is not for me to judge others.
I have a friend, an Orthodox Priest of the Syrian Rite, who works with paedophiles because no one else will. He believes in the possibility even in the depths of such evil for God’s grace to bring redemption. He is the best Christian I know. But many of you out there would hold that because he (and my Quaker friends) are not of the true church he is damned. Frankly I don’t believe you. God alone judges the living and the dead; God alone (with Christ) decides who will be with him in Paradise.
Why lapsed ? Because I fear the arrogance of the certainty so many of you display. I fear we are existing in a cosy self-righteous cul-de-sac full of ornament, without love.

You are right and you are wrong! Much of what you say is absolutely correct and I UNDERSTAND YOU COMPLETELY!

I believe that there was much harm done in the Fascist states by the Church unfortunately. My husband and I were communist sympathisers for so long - I was away from the Church for 27 years - my husband was Atheist. The Holy Spirit tapped me on the shoulder and BOOM! I came back to the Catholic Church and discovered that in fact I knew very little about the Faith. Now that I continue to learn I am more and more orthodox Catholic. My husband converted nearly 4 years ago and…we now go to Mass every day!

It could happen to you…you never know!

 

[benedictus2]

Why lapsed ? Because I find much of main stream modern Catholicism lacking in humanity. I am constantly reminded that ‘God so loved the world’ without any added qualifications. I am constantly drawn to the two great commandments
Love God
Love your neighbour as yourself.
And if my neigbour is gay, if she has had an abortion, if s/he is an atheist, a jew, a muslim etc. are they not my neigbour still ? Should I not love them as Christ commanded ? Love them in spite of what they have done ?
I find most Catholics today too judgemental, forgetful of Christs demand that we do not judge others. It is not for me to judge others.
I have a friend, an Orthodox Priest of the Syrian Rite, who works with paedophiles because no one else will. He believes in the possibility even in the depths of such evil for God’s grace to bring redemption. He is the best Christian I know. But many of you out there would hold that because he (and my Quaker friends) are not of the true church he is damned. Frankly I don’t believe you. God alone judges the living and the dead; God alone (with Christ) decides who will be with him in Paradise.
Why lapsed ? Because I fear the arrogance of the certainty so many of you display. I fear we are existing in a cosy self-righteous cul-de-sac full of ornament, without love.

Judging and pointing out that someone is doing something wrong are two different things. This is the pitfall of many a conciliatory Catholics.

We are supposed to admonish the sinner. To remind someone that something IS a sin, is not being judgmental. Have you ever thought that a person may just be waiting for your enlightening counsel to amend their life and because of this nicey-nicey don’t ruffle feathers approach you have failed in that duty.

You cannot judge who is the best Christian. Only Christ can.

The Church is here to preach Christ’s truth not to pander to any one’s sensibility, And sometimes, the Truth hurts because it ought to.

When Jesus said to the adulteress “Neither do I codemn you”, his last words were " Go and sin no more". He did not say, yes, that’s all okay, keep doing what you were doing.

 

[sauce]

I went to a service once at a nondenominational church made up of many ex-Catholics. The minister was ex-Catholic, too.

Their church is very popular. But I noticed something peculiar.
He made a point of making a point of the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory. And then proceeded to misrepresent it. It infuriated me sitting there. What I perceived was that he had no idea what he was talking about and was quite satisfied to present Purgatory in an immature and uneducated manner. If he were really (I’m using the subjunctive mood here) interested in knowing what we teach about Purgatory he would have cited sources and made an effort to find out the truth. But he plowed right through without any informed logic or healthy curiosity. I knew that what he was saying was unsubstantiated and basically dishonest. It pandered to the fear and ignorance of the congregation. I knew, yet I couldn’t say anything.

He talked about lighting candles and wondering at the frustration of not knowing how long to pray for someone to get out of purgatory. And he proceeded to “teach” against this doctrine. These are some of the reasons people leave the church for “higher” ground. They look back in loathing. And they don’t want to know the truth. They just want “out.”

I recently read from the Internet St. Catherine of Genoa’s Treatise on Purgatory. It was quite wonderful. But non-Catholics are not interested in becoming informed on this level. They are hell bent on sticking to the KJV of the bible. There is a fundamental difference in our approach and outlook. I believe that the Catholic outlook is one of openness and nonmechanical in nature. And we need to educate ourselves so that we can support the truth not bash it.:twocents:

 

[twb1621]

Why lapsed ? Because I find much of main stream modern Catholicism lacking in humanity. I am constantly reminded that ‘God so loved the world’ without any added qualifications. I am constantly drawn to the two great commandments
Love God
Love your neighbour as yourself.
And if my neigbour is gay, if she has had an abortion, if s/he is an atheist, a jew, a muslim etc. are they not my neigbour still ? Should I not love them as Christ commanded ? Love them in spite of what they have done ?
Absolutely

I find most Catholics today too judgemental, forgetful of Christs demand that we do not judge others. It is not for me to judge others.
But that is some people not all and it takes the ones who are true to the faith to bring awareness to the others.

I have a friend, an Orthodox Priest of the Syrian Rite, who works with paedophiles because no one else will. He believes in the possibility even in the depths of such evil for God’s grace to bring redemption. He is the best Christian I know.
as it should be.

But many of you out there would hold that because he (and my Quaker friends) are not of the true church he is damned. Frankly I don’t believe you. God alone judges the living and the dead; God alone (with Christ) decides who will be with him in Paradise.
And this is the problem you are dealing with. You are blocking out those Catholics who do not fall to these weaknesses and condemning all in the process. You suffer from one of the very faults you condemn others for. As far as condemnation for not being Catholic, those who are not of knowledge of the teachings of Christ’s true Church are not condemned for it. You have to know what you do is a mortal sin and choose to perform it regardless in order to be condemned.
Why lapsed ? Because I fear the arrogance of the certainty so many of you display. I fear we are existing in a cosy self-righteous cul-de-sac full of ornament, without love.

Don’t you see, You have a responsibility just as I and all Catholics to live a life of charity and humility and in doing so allowing the light of our Lord to shine through you for others to see. Because some may be sinful, they are even more so in need of the light of guidance. you are taking a stand of being as judgemental as those you claim are wrong by going against the entire Church. We are the Church. Jesus Himself asked this of us. By dropping out you surrender to the weak and fail to live up to that which He sacrificed for. The time has past of bailing out because of the sins of some. It’s time the strong stick together and strengthen the Church He provided for us.

 

[wynnejj]

This is a bit of a drive-by posting, but I asked myself if there were any Catholics who people wouldn’t think of bashing, and why.

Why is it that you never heard anyone bash Mother Teresa of Calcutta while she was alive and after she died?

It is hard to bash a Catholic who subscribes to the words:
“Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words.”

 

[benedictus2]

I went to a service once at a nondenominational church made up of many ex-Catholics. The minister was ex-Catholic, too.

Their church is very popular. But I noticed something peculiar.
He made a point of making a point of the Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory. And then proceeded to misrepresent it. It infuriated me sitting there. What I perceived was that he had no idea what he was talking about and was quite satisfied to present Purgatory in an immature and uneducated manner. If he were really (I’m using the subjunctive mood here) interested in knowing what we teach about Purgatory he would have cited sources and made an effort to find out the truth. But he plowed right through without any informed logic or healthy curiosity. I knew that what he was saying was unsubstantiated and basically dishonest. It pandered to the fear and ignorance of the congregation. I knew, yet I couldn’t say anything.

He talked about lighting candles and wondering at the frustration of not knowing how long to pray for someone to get out of purgatory. And he proceeded to “teach” against this doctrine. These are some of the reasons people leave the church for “higher” ground. They look back in loathing. And they don’t want to know the truth. They just want “out.”

I recently read from the Internet St. Catherine of Genoa’s Treatise on Purgatory. It was quite wonderful. But non-Catholics are not interested in becoming informed on this level. They are hell bent on sticking to the KJV of the bible. There is a fundamental difference in our approach and outlook. I believe that the Catholic outlook is one of openness and nonmechanical in nature. And we need to educate ourselves so that we can support the truth not bash it.:twocents:

This is exactly the problem with most protestant who disagree with Catholic Doctrine. They know zilch about the doctrine they are disputing.

 

[benedictus2]

I agree with what you said. because at one point, I have definitely heard someone say that the Catholic Church is “too strict.”

Jesus says: Enter through the narrow door.

No I can’t that’s too hard.

 

[Cinette]

QUESTION!

I have asked this question on different threads but with no response. I might even have included this thread but I do not remember and am not about to search the thread. Please - if anyone can answer I would be most grateful.

I became aware of the great number of books written against the Catholic Church and our beliefs when I read Karl Keating’s book “Fundamentalism and Catholicism”. It seems that there are people who have made it their career to write and propagate lies about the Catholic Church. Quite amazing really. Now, my question is, is there a single book written by a serious Catholic writing lies about non-Catholics. )This would not include a book by a Catholic refuting the lies of books by non-Catholics obviouly. That wouldn’t be a hate book - it would be defending the Church against lies.)

Can anyone please answer that question even if it to say that such a book does not exist.

Thank you
Cinette

 

[CWBetts]

QUESTION!

I have asked this question on different threads but with no response. I might even have included this thread but I do not remember and am not about to search the thread. Please - if anyone can answer I would be most grateful.

I became aware of the great number of books written against the Catholic Church and our beliefs when I read Karl Keating’s book “Fundamentalism and Catholicism”. It seems that there are people who have made it their career to write and propagate lies about the Catholic Church. Quite amazing really. Now, my question is, is there a single book written by a serious Catholic writing lies about non-Catholics. )This would not include a book by a Catholic refuting the lies of books by non-Catholics obviouly. That wouldn’t be a hate book - it would be defending the Church against lies.)

Can anyone please answer that question even if it to say that such a book does not exist.

Thank you
Cinette

I have not examined every apologetics book evr written, so I cannot give a difinitive answer, but I can say I am not aware of such a book.

 

[Cinette]

I have not examined every apologetics book evr written, so I cannot give a difinitive answer, but I can say I am not aware of such a book.

A book on Protestant bashing, if it did exist, could never fall under the category of “Apologetics”. Instead it would fall under the category of “Bigotery”.

 

[CWBetts]

A book on Protestant bashing, if it did exist, could never fall under the category of “Apologetics”. Instead it would fall under the category of “Bigotery”.

True, but I find it interesting that Catholic-bashing books DO often get described as “Apologetics”