Why is Christianity right and Islam wrong?

[IgnatianPhilo]

And the possibility that this may be in reference to Jesus’ “human” aspect rather than His Divine aspect has not even crossed you mind?

Servant who is the quran responding to here then? Jesus was not considered by Christians the son of God because he was born of a virgin, but because he was eternally begotten of the father before creation. It is one of the central mysteries of the trinity. No one, as far as I know believed this idea of Jesus being the son of god because he was born of a virgin. So if your idea of what the quran says is right, who is teh quran speaking to? Not to Christians, but then we must ask why speak out against such an obscure belief?

I tend to think teh author of the quran didn’t understand Christianity ( much like muslims and bahai don’t understand Christianity) and was responding to an idea he perceived the Christians had.

 

[MartinJordan]

Or could the People of the Book (Koran) do more than the Christians, it may be worth exploring this concept?

5 Times a day they pray at least after ablutions, and I know they do more and reflect as Christians Do. Bowing and Submitting to God is Important!

And the Bible teaches its followers to Prostrate to the One True Living GOD Almighty:

“Then David said to the whole assembly, “Praise the LORD your God.” So they all praised the LORD , the God of their fathers; they bowed low and fell prostrate before the LORD and the king. (From the NIV Bible, 1 Chronicles 29:20)”

“Then once again I fell prostrate before the LORD for forty days and forty nights; I ate no bread and drank no water, because of all the sin you had committed, doing what was evil in the LORD’s sight and so provoking him to anger. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 9:18)”

“the oracle of one who hears the words of God, who has knowledge from the Most High, who sees a vision from the Almighty, who falls prostrate, and whose eyes are opened: (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 24:16)”

“When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The LORD -he is God! The LORD -he is God!” (From the NIV Bible, 1 Kings 18:39)”

Jesus peace be upon him taught his followers to bow down to Allah Almighty in worship; “Going a little farther, he [Jesus] fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.’ (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 26:39)”

Regards Tony

Are you teaching me? :

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

Servant who is the quran responding to here then? Jesus was not considered by Christians the son of God because he was born of a virgin, but because he was eternally begotten of the father before creation. It is one of the central mysteries of the trinity. No one, as far as I know believed this idea of Jesus being the son of god because he was born of a virgin

Thank you IgnatianPhilo. For summing that up nicely.

MJ

 

[tonyfish58]

Are you teaching me? :

MJ

Am I not exploring the meaning of scripture with you

When the question asked is “Why is Christianity right and Islam wrong”? Is it not a just person that will look at both sides of the argument?

If this is better then that because of this and then you find the this in that, what is one to conclude?

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

Servant who is the quran responding to here then? Jesus was not considered by Christians the son of God because he was born of a virgin, but because he was eternally begotten of the father before creation. It is one of the central mysteries of the trinity. No one, as far as I know believed this idea of Jesus being the son of god because he was born of a virgin. So if your idea of what the quran says is right, who is teh quran speaking to? Not to Christians, but then we must ask why speak out against such an obscure belief?

I tend to think teh author of the quran didn’t understand Christianity ( much like muslims and bahai don’t understand Christianity) and was responding to an idea he perceived the Christians had.

Personally, I think Muhammad is referring to the concept of Incarnation and the co-mingling of body and spirit.

 

[MartinJordan]

Am I not exploring the meaning of scripture with you

When the question asked is “Why is Christianity right and Islam wrong”? Is it not a just person that will look at both sides of the argument?

If this is better then that because of this and then you find the this in that, what is one to conclude?

Regards Tony

Fair enough. You can read the CCC and see whether Mohammed is mentioned. Then we shall talk again.

MJ

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Personally, I think Muhammad is referring to the concept of Incarnation and the co-mingling of body and spirit.

They say, " Allah has taken a son." Exalted is He! Rather, to Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and the earth. All are devoutly obedient to Him, 2:116

Never has God begotten a son, nor is there any other god besides Him. Were this otherwise, each god would govern his own creation, each holding himself above the other. Exalted be God above their falsehoods! 23:91

[He is] Originator of the heavens and the earth. How could He have a son when He does not have a companion and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing. 6:101

Those who say: ‘The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,’ preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth break asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the Merciful, when it does not become the Lord of Mercy to beget one! 19:88

He (exalted be the glory of our Lord!) has taken no wife, nor has He begotten any children. The Blaspheming One among us has uttered a wanton falsehood against God, although we had supposed no man or jinee could tell of Him what is untrue.72:3

The question must be asked, who is teh author of the quran referring to here? The author of the quran seems to have in mind that for God to have a son, he needs a consort, then goes on to brand this as ludicrous because God has no consort. The only thing is, no one believes (at least among jews and Christians) that God had a consort in order to have begotten a son. Is the author of the quran speaking to Christians who definetely seem to be in mind in verses where it mentions Jesus and him being called a son.

So if the quran is refferring to the incarnation, and condemning the viewpoint that Jesus is the begotten son of God because he was incarnate and born of a virgin, you have a problem. Christians didn’t believe this, they believed Jesus was begotten of the father before time was. To recite the creed.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; Nicene/Constantinopolitan creed. The idea of Christians, at least by the time of Muhammad is that Christ was always begotten by God before even creation itself. The son does what the father wills, the son is totally loyal to his father and the father is totally faithful to his son in all things.

So if your interpretation of the quran is correct, the quran is wrong. I think it is just as wrong on the muslim interpretation which I think accurately reflects the quran.

 

[tonyfish58]

Fair enough. You can read the CCC and see whether Mohammed is mentioned. Then we shall talk again.

MJ

I assume this is the CCC - vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

As you anticipate/know that Muhammad is not mentioned in this guidance, I would assume you are saying good bye my friend

As a parting thought, I could see in these headings one of the Main Messages of the Holy Koran

CHAPTER ONE YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND

Article 1 THE FIRST COMMANDMENT
    I. "You Shall Worship the Lord Your God and Him Only Shall You Serve"
    II. "Him Only Shall You Serve"
    III. "You Shall Have No Other Gods Before Me"
    IV. "You Shall Not Make For Yourself a Graven Image . . ."

All the above was taught by Muhammad. Assalamu Alaikum - God Bless

Regards Tony

 

[josh987654321]

When the question asked is “Why is Christianity right and Islam wrong”? Is it not a just person that will look at both sides of the argument?

I wholeheartedly agree.

I have not read through all of this thread yet, but may I ask some quick questions?

What is your view of Jesus Christ? who is Jesus Christ to you?
and what do you get out of the Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

God Bless

Thank you
Josh

 

[MartinJordan]

I assume this is the CCC - vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

As you anticipate/know that Muhammad is not mentioned in this guidance, I would assume you are saying good bye my friend

He isn’t a prophet in Catholicism. Neither was he prophesied in the OT. But surely God is Great without him.

All the above was taught by Muhammad. Assalamu Alaikum - God Bless

LOL! Right…if there is anything new he taught,let me know.

MJ

 

[daler]

They say, " Allah has taken a son." Exalted is He! Rather, to Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and the earth. All are devoutly obedient to Him, 2:116

Never has God begotten a son, nor is there any other god besides Him. Were this otherwise, each god would govern his own creation, each holding himself above the other. Exalted be God above their falsehoods! 23:91

[He is] Originator of the heavens and the earth. How could He have a son when He does not have a companion and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing. 6:101

Those who say: ‘The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,’ preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth break asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the Merciful, when it does not become the Lord of Mercy to beget one! 19:88

He (exalted be the glory of our Lord!) has taken no wife, nor has He begotten any children. The Blaspheming One among us has uttered a wanton falsehood against God, although we had supposed no man or jinee could tell of Him what is untrue.72:3

The question must be asked, who is teh author of the quran referring to here? The author of the quran seems to have in mind that for God to have a son, he needs a consort, then goes on to brand this as ludicrous because God has no consort. The only thing is, no one believes (at least among jews and Christians) that God had a consort in order to have begotten a son. Is the author of the quran speaking to Christians who definetely seem to be in mind in verses where it mentions Jesus and him being called a son.

So if the quran is refferring to the incarnation, and condemning the viewpoint that Jesus is the begotten son of God because he was incarnate and born of a virgin, you have a problem. Christians didn’t believe this, they believed Jesus was begotten of the father before time was. To recite the creed.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; Nicene/Constantinopolitan creed. The idea of Christians, at least by the time of Muhammad is that Christ was always begotten by God before even creation itself. The son does what the father wills, the son is totally loyal to his father and the father is totally faithful to his son in all things.

So if your interpretation of the quran is correct, the quran is wrong. I think it is just as wrong on the muslim interpretation which I think accurately reflects the quran.

Ignatian,

. It is good of you to quote the verses of the Quran with which you differ. It helps to focus the discussion, I think.

. What crosses my mind is the term “begotten”. From what I can gather, that “Neither does God beget, nor is He begotten”, a fundamental difference appears.

. Also, I recall, regarding the Qur’an translation by Yusuf Ali … “They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah.”

. So this is certainly one of the main sticking points, as Muhammad is always far above His creatures, sending Prophets and Warners, telling us to beware of the Day of Judgement, when all shall stand before their Lord.

 

[daler]

LOL! Right…if there is anything new he taught,let me know.

MJ

Martin,
. I don’t know as He so much taught something “new”, per se, as so much of what is revealed in the Quran appears (to me) to be a kind of reiteration and condensation of the Old and New Testament stories.

. It does strike me as quite profound, however, the manner in which the verses seem to flow. There are sharp turns and striking contrasts. It is as though one is jolted from time to time, and there are repeated warnings.

. There are also some very deep subtleties in the verses of the Quran which, when understood, are exceedingly profound and quite stirring. It is hard for me to view these verses as coming from a mere mortal like ourselves.

. All throughout the Quran there are statements such as:

. “If all the humans and all the jinns bonded together in order to produce a Quran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another.’” (Qur’an 17:88)

. “And if you are in doubt as to which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a sura like it, and call on your helper, besides Allah, if you are truthful.” (Qur’an 2:23)

 

[tonyfish58]

I wholeheartedly agree.

I have not read through all of this thread yet, but may I ask some quick questions?

What is your view of Jesus Christ? who is Jesus Christ to you?
and what do you get out of the Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

God Bless

Thank you
Josh

Josh - Great questions

What is my view of Jesus Christ? I offer these thoughts from the Baha’i writings which would form my view.

"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended.

"The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Baha’u’llah as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.” His mother is described as “that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous, countenance,” and the station of her Son eulogized as a “station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth,” whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused “the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth.”

Who is Jesus Christ to you? Baha’u’llah has given me these thoughts re Christ and I hold 100% with these thoughts

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole of Creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent spirit . . . He it is who purified the world. Blessed the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him”.

How great we must love Christ!

What do I get out of the Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke and John

I get a Love for God through Christ, I get a way to live my Life, I get hope of a new life, I get a promise that it will be, I get understanding that I must act on my Faith, I get understanding that I do not know everything. If I had time to post I would get a lot more

Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Ignatian,

. It is good of you to quote the verses of the Quran with which you differ. It helps to focus the discussion, I think.

. What crosses my mind is the term “begotten”. From what I can gather, that “Neither does God beget, nor is He begotten”, a fundamental difference appears.

. Also, I recall, regarding the Qur’an translation by Yusuf Ali … “They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah.”

. So this is certainly one of the main sticking points, as Muhammad is always far above His creatures, sending Prophets and Warners, telling us to beware of the Day of Judgement, when all shall stand before their Lord.

You mean Allah is far about his creatures sending prophets and warners right? The question is what is the quran’s concept of begotteness that it is trying to disaude people from? Certaintly it shows no understanding of the Christian concept and I don’t grant that the quran does, when it speaks about Allah needing a consort inorder to beget.

 

[Servant19]

You mean Allah is far about his creatures sending prophets and warners right? The question is what is the quran’s concept of begotteness that it is trying to disaude people from? Certaintly it shows no understanding of the Christian concept and I don’t grant that the quran does, when it speaks about Allah needing a consort inorder to beget.

Can you provide a simple understanding of what the concept of “begetting” is within Christianity please Ignatian?
(or provide a beneficial link?)

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Can you provide a simple understanding of what the concept of “begetting” is within Christianity please Ignatian?
(or provide a beneficial link?)

I cannot explain it. But what I can do is tell you what it is not. Jesus is not the only begotten son because he was born of the virgin mary. He is the only begotten son of God for all eternity, before the creation of anything which was created.

The nicene creed describes it.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;

 

[daler]

You mean Allah is far about his creatures sending prophets and warners right? The question is what is the quran’s concept of begotteness that it is trying to disaude people from? Certaintly it shows no understanding of the Christian concept and I don’t grant that the quran does, when it speaks about Allah needing a consort inorder to beget.

Ignatian,
. Not being raised in a Muslim environment I feel a bit of guessing on my part is all that I can offer, so these are purely my own reflections from reading the Quran on my own a few times over the years.
. I get the distinct sense that in order for Jesus to have been “begotten”, God would have had to do the begetting, and begetting is not something God does, for He merely has to say: “Be, and it is”
. This is a major belief in Islam, that when Allah says: “Be” … Then it simply “is”, and that is all there is to it There is no begetting,
. Begetting is something that humans do, if you know what I mean, and as God isn’t human, He is not reduced to creating or procreating, as humans are wont to do. God doesn’t need to do that, and so there is a denial that it ever occurs.

. It would seem to me that God might be called the Spiritual “Father” of Jesus without any problem, at least to me, when the intimacy of His spiritual relationship and identity are intended. This makes sense to me.
. It also makes sense that what is denoted in the other terms we find regarding the Prophets is similarly showing this “special relationship” between God and His Prophets, i.e.

Abraham is called the “Friend” of God
Moses is the “Interculator” of God, i.e., His Lawgiver.
Jesus is called the “Son” of God
Muhammad is the “Apostle” of God
The Bab is called the “Gate” of God
Baha’u’llah is called the “Glory” of God

. So for me, what is common in each of these is the unique relationship of this Holy Soul to God, and it sets them apart from normal human relationships to God

. Can you comment on this line of reasoning for me?
. Thank you, Ignatian, for your contemplative and deep thoughts.

.

 

[daler]

I cannot explain it. But what I can do is tell you what it is not. Jesus is not the only begotten son because he was born of the virgin mary. He is the only begotten son of God for all eternity, before the creation of anything which was created.

The nicene creed describes it.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;

Then also we must look at the verse in Psalms 2:7

. “Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee .”

. I tend to think that it is kind of like saying: “On this day I fashioned thee”, only with a context of a special (above human) kind of fashioning.

. The Bab addresses this:

. “The substance wherewith God hath created Me is not the clay out of which others have been formed. He hath conferred upon Me that which the worldly-wise can never comprehend, nor the faithful discover … I am one of the sustaining pillars of the Primal Word of God. Whosoever hath recognized Me, hath known all that is true and right, and hath attained all that is good and seemly; and whosoever hath failed to recognize Me, hath turned away from all that is true and right and hath succumbed to everything evil and unseemly.”

. To me, this would aptly apply to the distinction of the other Prophets of God, such as Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, as well…

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Then also we must look at the verse in Psalms 2:7

. “Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee .”

. I tend to think that it is kind of like saying: “On this day I fashioned thee”, only with a context of a special (above human) kind of fashioning.

. The Bab addresses this:

. “The substance wherewith God hath created Me is not the clay out of which others have been formed. He hath conferred upon Me that which the worldly-wise can never comprehend, nor the faithful discover … I am one of the sustaining pillars of the Primal Word of God. Whosoever hath recognized Me, hath known all that is true and right, and hath attained all that is good and seemly; and whosoever hath failed to recognize Me, hath turned away from all that is true and right and hath succumbed to everything evil and unseemly.”

. To me, this would aptly apply to the distinction of the other Prophets of God, such as Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, as well…

.

The problem of course is that every single one of those, besides Jesus was imperfect and sinned against God. Moses didn’t obey God and he punished him, not allowing him to see the Holy land. Abraham slept with his wife’s maid and I have every confidence that Mirza husain sinned. As far as muhammad is concerned, there is so little we can know about him, but there are as many negative accounts as there are positive accounts of him, like him marrying his son in law’s wife because he desired her or having 9 wives.

 

[Servant19]

I cannot explain it. But what I can do is tell you what it is not. Jesus is not the only begotten son because he was born of the virgin mary. He is the only begotten son of God for all eternity, before the creation of anything which was created.

The nicene creed describes it.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;

If you can’t explain it then why do you believe in it?

So when you say “He is the only begotten son of God for all eternity, before the creation of anything which was created.”…what does the word “begotten” mean?

You use the word, tell me what it means?

The dictionary definition is: 1. (esp. of a male parent) to generate (offspring).
2. to produce as an effect

Does it mean any of these things?