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Righteousone
Guest
God will guide your family into the faith. You must come first b/c that is the plan…at least you’ll be saved.
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moondweller
Guest
Yes, but not RCs.
So it wasn’t at all a “revelation,” but your own subjective “realization.” IOW, you believed what you were reading. Certainly Jesus said He would build His church. But can you show me where He ever identified it as either “Roman” or “catholic?”
Well, to make the comparison you’ll have to also read various Protestant theological books. When you get into soteriology and compare the two, I’m afraid you’ll find quite a difference. Plus RC salvation is based on and united with its sacerdotal/sacramental religious system.
What’s your Protestant affiliation right now?
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moondweller
Guest
How is it then that this Catholic disagrees with you that Protestants and Catholics have the same salvation? Because you’re not a RC he does not believe you’re saved - nor the members of your family. Does he know something you don’t? Has he read different books than you? Do you agree with him that you’re not saved, or is he the one who is wrong?
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t68ware
Guest
I am a member of the Wesleyan Church, whose historical background is founded in John Wesley and the Holiness Movement. I speak from my denominations perspective, certainly not for all Protestants, for there are many disagreements in our circle as there appear to be in the Catholic church. While I have alot to learn about the Catholic church and its theology, I am well versed in Protestant theology, having attended a Christian college in the Wesleyan/Armenian tradition, and receiving my Bible degree. I find our discussions very enlightening and would love to learn more.
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t68ware
Guest
Anybody who tells me I am not saved is speaking way out of turn, and appears to be playing God in judging. I KNOW I am saved, as are the other members of my family, for we are all have accepted and believe in Jesus as the Son of God, repented of our sins and do our best to live like Jesus. And for those who think baptism is salvific, we all have been baptised. My Bible tells me that “all who call on the Name of the Lord shall be saved” and “if you believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved…”. There are many Bible verses that we Protestants lay claim to as proof of our salvation.
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moondweller
Guest
Yes, we have Scriptural proof. And in those Scriptures we have the words of Christ Himself who said:John 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, **because he has not believed **in the name of the only begotten Son of God."And elsewhere He says:John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.Yet RC’ism says that no one can know if they have eternal life. To say you do is presumptuous and cannot be known until the end of one’s life and only if he/she dies in a “state of grace.” But I agree with you that salvation is based on faith alone through Christ alone. And I believe the words of Christ, that he who believes in Him HAS eternal life, does not come into judgment but HAS passed out of death into LIFE - His life. And this too is the witness (testimony) of God concerning His Son:1 John 5:9-12 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."Yet contrary to God’s own testimony concerning His Son, RC’ism says no one can know he HAS eternal life.
Why is it then that you would put yourself under the authority of those who state differently and believe even contrary to you?
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Righteousone
Guest
Leaving for Vegas today!!! Be back next weekend!
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GatorMommy
Guest
Oh, come on! That’s your reasoning! A graven image is an idol, something that is worhshipped. We don’t worship the crucifix. That crucifix has more of an impact of me than a cross, as it is a reminder of exactly what Christ did for ME.The main reason is this"
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:”
End of Thread
(P.S. With your reasoning above, can you please explain the verses in the OT that dictate the making of “images” for the Temples.)
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Huguenot
Guest
I am a Protestant ; I attend Mass because since I have a lot of Catholic friends / colleagues and so on (probably more than Protestant ones due to the “religious landscape” in France ) and when they invite me I go … and I sometimes go on my own… there are things I agree with in the Catholic Church, contrary to what you said about “Protestants” in general I don’t "protest against it " ;Well, either your Protestant or you are Catholic. There is no in between. How is it that you attend Mass and think Christ is not there in the Eucharist? Maybe you believe in the Real Presence. Do you feel comfortable at Mass saying the Hail Mary? Because you all feel we ‘worship’ her. Isn’t the Mass holy as Jesus was? If so, how can you go back to your ‘own’ church after this?
Honestly, I went only to Cannes and didn’t like it at all. That was where the cruise ship docked and we almost took a train to Monte Carlo, another Catholic country.
I don’t believe in the Real Presence, but during the Eucharist Catholics also remember Christ’s atoning death for us, so even if I don’t take part in it ( because it is forbidden by the Catholic Church, and if I am in somebody’s house I find it normal to respect his rules )–I mean I don’t take the host–, I ask God to forgive my sins, I thank him for his Son’s sacrifice, and since I know that is what Catholics also do, DESPITE THE DIFFERENCE ( Real Presence or not ) I feel in fellowship with all the Catholics who are in the communion line because I know that they are also remembering Christ’s death…
I don’t say the “Hail Mary”, nor do I use the sign of the Cross, I just keep quiet and nobody ever jumped at me for that ; but when the Catholics say the Lord’s prayer I say it with them, when they pray and if I agree with what they pray for ( which is very often the case, except when they pray for the dead, then I don’t associate myself with these prayers ) I fully associate my prayers to theirs, I use the “response” ( I don’t know what you call it, sometimes it is simply amen but sometimes there is a kind of chanted response, like Lord we beseech you …) they use ; there are some Bible readings during Mass, three if I’m not mistaken, then just before I ask God to open my heart; if I agree with the hymns I also sing them, anyway there are hymns that are sung by both Protestants and Catholics, and even when there are specifically Catholic hymns and I agree with the words, I also sing them ( well, if I can catch up … if it is too difficult I don’t sing but I say the words in my heart, silently …)
And then I also listen to what the priest preaches, sometimes I agree with him, or partially, but I wouldn’t agree with everything a “Liberal” Protestant minister would say either, so I don’t really see the difference …
The French Protestant Federation has a Bible reading guide that proposes texts for everyday , with a small comment ; recently, they have decided to add some texts on Sundays and “special occasions” ( I mean Christmas, Easter … I don’t know the exact English word for these days … festivals ??? holy days ? ) and the texts they “add” ( they propose to read after the usual two texts a day ) are the texts of the Catholic Church for that day …
And when, on Sundays, or at Easter, or at Christmas, I read these “extra” texts, I’m happy to know that Catholics who attend Mass on that day will hear the texts I’m reading, I also feel in fellowship with them thinking we are reading or hearing the same texts on the same day ( there is just one exception : if among the texts proposed by the Catholic church some are taken from the Deuterocanonical books, then they are not “proposed” by the French Protestant Federation, but I wouldn’t be shocked if one day they went further and proposed them too --maybe giving the references in a different colour for instance to underline they’re Deuterocanonical …we use a lot of different Bible translations, not only Protestant ones, because some French Catholic translations are considered very good even by Protestants, so we sometimes also read the Deuterocanonical books : we don’t give them the same “authority” as to the other books, but it is not “forbidden” to read them )
Well you see there are a lot of things a Protestant can do in a Catholic Church …
I don’t see any problem going back to my own church “after that” ; I don’t feel I’m sinning attending Mass ( since I don’t do anything I disagree with there …) from time to time, even my minister does so …
But I don’t go to Mass regularly, sometimes I don’t go for months, because sure I prefer to go to my own church …
Well well well I hope I haven’t shocked anybody here ( Catholic or Protestant )…
Some Catholics also come and “visit” us …
I don’t want to “minimize” the differences there are between us ( I don’t even agree with infant baptism, I’m Evangelical ), but I try to do as much as I can with Catholics IN SPITE of the differences …
There are types of Masses I couldn’t attend because I think I wouldn’t feel at ease at all, for example some Catholics invited me to “Eucharist Adoration” ( I don’t know if that is the exact term in English ) , well there I would surely feel very ill at ease since I don’t believe in the Real Presence ; or I couldn’t attend a Mass said for a dead person …
A lot of French Protestants are so occupied trying to get nearer to Catholics that they forget … the other Protestants : I’ve never attended a Reformed or a Lutheran service
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graceandglory
Guest
Those who are declared Saints are people who lived lives of heroic virtue. The Church doesn’t want less people to be virtuous. The Church doesn’t want less Saintly people than in JPII’s time. It is the Church’s desire that MORE people act more saintly and become more like Christ. I’m sure you’ve taken something out of context.
Also, when you refer to something you have read or heard, don’t say “The Church” unless it came from the Vatican. Instead, say something like, “I heard someone say…” That would be more truthful. And if it was in an article, even a reporter should be getting their facts straight and not attributing just anything to The Church.
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graceandglory
Guest
Moondweller, I have been baptist, pentecostal, and non-denominational. It is the all-pervasive teaching from each of the pulpits that the way we live our lives doesn’t matter. At the point of death, it doesn’t matter if we have lived as a murderer or a saint, because we are all going to the same place at the same time as long as we prayed the "sinner’s prayer."
The second half of my statement was not in quotes. The protestant church in America is “who” preaches the latter half of my statement.
I am calling it like I see it. I lived as a protestant for 20 years. I lived in a parsonage. I have been a missionary. It was not meant as a dig. It is what it is.
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moondweller
Guest
So you can’t provide me with any names! I figured that.
Why is it that many of the sermons delivered from the pulpits by Protestant pastors on Sunday morning are on proper, Christian behavior? And the Protestant expository teachers on the N.T. can’t help but stress Christian behavior since the N.T. Epistles do as well. Have you read the Epistles? Especially Pauline.
Maybe you were sleeping during the sermons when you attended. I don’t know how else you could miss their pervasive message.
You call it according to your own bias opinion, not at all “as it is.” Many Protestants have assurance of their salvation, but they also know at what cost their salvation was acquired. And for this reason their desire is to present their bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God which is their spiritual service of worship. And not to be conformed to this world, and therefore prove what the will of God is (Rom. 12:1-2).
Your slander is uncalled for.
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curtishouse29
Guest
I know I’m pretty late in this discussion but I attended a church of Christ in the past and I think the reason for not having Jesus hung on the cross is because He should be thought of as where He is now and that is at the right hand of the Father and still not up on that cross. I dont think it diminishes from the awesome sacrifice that Jesus did for all of us. I think we should focus on both his awesome sacrifice but also where He is now. God bless.
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graceandglory
Guest
I am able to give you names, but I choose not to.
It is the old faith/works discussion. I’m sorry you took it so personal.
I’m not sorry that I said it.
Moondweller, I was sharing my history of 20 years as a protestant. I made no personal attacks on you. However, you have called me biased and slanderous, and insinuated I was sleeping during all those sermons. Actually, I went home and discussed them in the pastor’s home on many occasions. I don’t need to defend myself; however, I won’t be responding to you anymore.
If you can’t speak the truth in love, people won’t listen.
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Metaron
Guest
I agree with him, and I was Protestant for 17 years, born and raised. They kept church history from me. They NEVER preached on John 6, either. I thank God I’m an ex-Protestant, and that I found his holy Church, the “Pillar and Bulwark of Truth” (as St.Paul calls the Catholic Church).
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moondweller
Guest
So then you admit I spoke the truth. Thank you! It was direct but not unloving.
If you PM me with the name of your old Pastor and his phone number I’ll personally phone and ask if he actually taught his congregation what you claim he did.
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graceandglory
Guest
I’m related to my old pastor. I respectfully decline your offer.
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moondweller
Guest
Your church never gave an expository teaching on John 6? They never went through John’s gospel account? In all your Protestant years you never studied the gospel account of John? Or are you saying they skipped over chapter six?
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graceandglory
Guest
Metaron,
I read Scott Hahn’s conversion story, Rome Sweet Home, and in it he says, he took a look at the pages of his Bible, all marked up and highlighted, with notes in the margins. He said, something like, "There, in the Gospel of John, between the highlighted verses was the Eucharist."
After I read that I was curious, so I scrambled to find John 6 in my Bibles. And sure enough, my bible looked like his, highlighted text before and after John 6 and writing throughout, but John 6 was eerily unmarked.
:nope:
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moondweller
Guest
If you’re telling the truth you have nothing to fear.
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