Why is voting for Biden a mortal sin?

[Victoria33]

Despite what “they” say, it is not a sin to vote for either candidate.

What may be sinful is voting for a particular candidate because of immoral positions or actions of theirs. It would not be immoral to vote for them in spite of such positions and actions.

Do you have a source for this? I see nothing in the Catechism saying this at all.

It is not sufficient for Catholic politicians to claim that they are ‘personally opposed’ to abortion. If any Catholic politician favors legalized abortion, despite a claim of personal opposition, such a politician commits a mortal sin by promoting abortion and by voting in favor of abortion.

The same is true for any Catholic who casts any vote with the intention of legalizing abortion, or of protecting laws allowing abortion, or of widening access to abortion. Such a voter commits a mortal sin and incurs a sentence of automatic excommunication for two reasons. First, they are committing the sin of heresy by believing that abortion should be legal and available. Second, they are committing the grievous sin of providing women with substantial or essential assistance in obtaining abortions, by attempting to legalize or broaden access to abortion.

Abortion and Excommunication - Catholic Ethics.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

That California legislator passed a bill that some say loosens the laws against pedophilia. Can one imagine if we were talking about pedophilia vs. abortion? And one used the kind of reasoning, “well, I’m not voting to further pedophilia”.

 

[lwest]

Of course they do! But their party platform doesn’t include allowing babies to be murdered up to the moment of birth.

 

[Soubirous1]

does it really make a difference to you? after conception it’s a human life. murder is murder.

 

[pnewton]

they’ll suffer the consequences of all the babies they’ve killed and lives they’ve ruined by that vote.

Jesus is the one judge, and will remain so. We all face the consequences good and bad of our actions, and the actions of others. We also act each in accord to our conscience to minimize the damage of sin, or face the judgement of God for failing to do so.

We do not need to act in accord with the conscience of others.

– Because there are larger things at play here. If you could tell me that voting for Trump would extinguish legalized abortion from our land once and for all, I’d probably have to weigh that. I’m an attorney so I have my own thoughts on how this will play out with the Supreme Court.

About half of your points are part of my equation, so thank you for the time it took. Please do not charge us by the hour for it. Someone knowledgeable in the the law would have a expertise in what is legally possible that I don not possess. I will assume you are a good lawyer.

I do not understand those who do not understand the law thinking the SC will behave like participants at a Trump rally, regardless of who appoints them. I saw where the rather brilliant Chief Roberts was accused of mental gymnastics for the very thing that makes him great at what he does. It is one thing to vote for a president based on lack of mental acuity, but it is kind of critical in our highest court.

 

[Shakuhachi]

Is it still a mortal sin if Biden is not elected?

 

[NevermoreLenore]

If someone wants to vote for those monsters, they’re free to do so; they’ll suffer the consequences of all the babies they’ve killed and lives they’ve ruined by that vote.

To be clear, you’re saying that a person who votes for Biden is personally responsible for future abortions, over which we have zero control? That’s…hyperbolic. If Trump is a prolife hero, why it still legal? He’s had four years. He has done nothing except install some conservative judges. Biden likewise will not be able to wave his magic wand to implement the changes republicans keep threatening.

 

[HarryStotle]

anon72678967:

If someone wants to vote for those monsters, they’re free to do so; they’ll suffer the consequences of all the babies they’ve killed and lives they’ve ruined by that vote.

To be clear, you’re saying that a person who votes for Biden is personally responsible for future abortions, over which we have zero control? That’s…hyperbolic. If Trump is a prolife hero, why it still legal? He’s had four years. He has done nothing except install some conservative judges. Biden likewise will not be able to wave his magic wand to implement the changes republicans keep threatening.

It appears that you know little about the way in which laws are established in the US. Roe v Wade was a Supreme Court decision, not an executive decision. Trump cannot, by executive order, overturn R v W because the Constitution is the ultimate law in the land. Only a Supreme Court decision can revisit the law.

 

[NevermoreLenore]

That was my point…he can’t change a Supreme Court decision. Likewise, neither can Biden.

 

[HarryStotle]

You wrote…

If Trump is a prolife hero, why it still legal? He’s had four years.

It is still legal because even if Trump were a super hero he couldn’t change the law. The Supreme Court is the only option and he is doing what he can.

 

[Canvas]

Do you have a source for this? I see nothing in the Catechism saying this at all.

That quote is NOT from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is from a deceptively named website run by lay “theologian” Ron Conte, formerly of CAF, who is constantly saying certain people are “excommunicated” and such. The delict regarding abortion is for procuring a completed abortion (see CIC 1398).

Can. 1398 A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

Conte is apparently now is lay expert on covid-19 too About – Covid.us.org

 

[Boomster1]

You’re welcome.

As a faithful Catholic, I believe life begins at conception. To me, there is no scientific basis or any other reason to believe otherwise. Life is not manufactured at birth. Our souls by their very nature must be inextricably linked to our physical selves. how can it be otherwise?

Unfortunately, close to 50% of the citizens of this country do not believe that life begins at conception. Many Americans deny the very existence of the soul. Pro-life positions are a no brainer for those who believe that life begins at conception. It is not a slam dunk argument though for those who believe a fetus is not a human being.

To further complicate the matter, the U.S. Courts follow the legal doctrine of Stare Decisis. The courts are bound to look toward precedent when the court is called to rule on a similar issue.

With that said, the U.S. Supreme Court has currently overturned 141 previously decided U.S. Supreme Court decisions. After being overturned by the nation’s highest court, these once valid decisions (or parts of the decision) are no longer law of the land.

Roe v Wade and its progeny are currently law of the land. That standing is arguably now on shaky ground. The question is…how far will the U.S. Supreme Court go with respect to Roe, Casey, and related case law? The USSC’s 1992 decision in Planned Parenthood v Casey, reaffirmed Roe’s core decision, but seemingly questioned the legal analysis behind the ruling. Nonetheless, the USSC, in a complex plurality opinion upheld the court’s decision in Roe v Wade.

Abortion is a complex and divisive issue in the U.S. Stacking the court with Conservative Catholic justices will not necessarily guarantee a particular outcome.

I most fervently pray that the American people will embrace life and end abortion forever.

 

[Boomster1]

Actually, there are several viable options to eliminate abortion on demand.

1. As you mentioned, the USSC could overturn Roe v Wade and Planned Parenthood v Casey.
2. Constitutional Amendment stating life begins at conception. Taking the life of a human being any time after conception would be homicide.

No one really knows how far the USSC would go if it overturns Casey and finds there is no fundamental right to abortion.

-The court could find that life begins at conception which would fundamentally change the abortion landscape. The states and arguably the federal government could enact legislation that proscribed abortion in any form. In essence, abortion would be murder. One could argue that morning after pills and other forms of contraception that interfered with life after conception would also be illegal.

I’m not sure this court would go that far. It’s probably more likely the court would strike down Casey find there is NO FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT to choose an abortion. This would permit the states to regulate abortion as they see fit. Some states would outlaw it entirely, while other states would probably write specific legislation to protect a woman’s right to choose. It would probably muddy the pro-life/pro-choice landscape even more than it is today.

If Trump is such a HUGE DEFENDER OF THE UNBORN, why has he not used the bully pulpit to call for the creation of a constitutional amendment to declare that life begins at conception? he’s had four years to do so. I’d argue that Trump doesn’t care about the issue at all. He’s using it as a wedge issue to remain in power.

Sure, he has appointed several hundred conservative judges to the federal bench…I’d argue Trump doesn’t have a clue about how federal courts’ interpret the U.S. Constitution. For Trump, it’s all about the outcome and that’s a dangerous place for a society as complex and powerful as ours.

 

[OraLabora]

Do you have a source for this? I see nothing in the Catechism saying this at all.

The source is the USCCB, and Pope Benedict XVI (written as Card . Ratzinger). Look it up, it’s easy enough to find.

One commits a mortal sin if voting for Biden specifically to endorse his position on abortion. One does not sin of one does not endorse that position, but votes for him for proportionate reasons for his stand on other issues. That’s more or less what the Catechism says.

“Proportionate” reasons are a matter of individual conscience and prudential judgement, not ours to judge but between the voter and God.

Statements that say voting for Biden is a mortal sin are flat-out wrong.

 

[Shakuhachi]

Yes, and these are unprecedented times. Truth also matter and right now we have a president who has little or no regard for truth. We cannot trust anything he says.

 

[HarryStotle]

Actually, there are several viable options to eliminate abortion on demand.

1. As you mentioned, the USSC could overturn Roe v Wade and Planned Parenthood v Casey.
2. Constitutional Amendment stating life begins at conception. Taking the life of a human being any time after conception would be homicide.

No one really knows how far the USSC would go if it overturns Casey and finds there is no fundamental right to abortion.

-The court could find that life begins at conception which would fundamentally change the abortion landscape. The states and arguably the federal government could enact legislation that proscribed abortion in any form. In essence, abortion would be murder. One could argue that morning after pills and other forms of contraception that interfered with life after conception would also be illegal.

I’m not sure this court would go that far. It’s probably more likely the court would strike down Casey find there is NO FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT to choose an abortion. This would permit the states to regulate abortion as they see fit. Some states would outlaw it entirely, while other states would probably write specific legislation to protect a woman’s right to choose. It would probably muddy the pro-life/pro-choice landscape even more than it is today.

If Trump is such a HUGE DEFENDER OF THE UNBORN, why has he not used the bully pulpit to call for the creation of a constitutional amendment to declare that life begins at conception? he’s had four years to do so. I’d argue that Trump doesn’t care about the issue at all. He’s using it as a wedge issue to remain in power.

Sure, he has appointed several hundred conservative judges to the federal bench…I’d argue Trump doesn’t have a clue about how federal courts’ interpret the U.S. Constitution. For Trump, it’s all about the outcome and that’s a dangerous place for a society as complex and powerful as ours.

Well, no. Trump has used the bully pulpit on dozens of issues. As you well know – and the leftists keep repeating – Trump has less than half of the popular vote and is currently riding a thin line above 50% in approval. A very contentious issue such as abortion could very well overthrow his consistent efforts to reinvigorate conservatives in the direction of reasonable defense of a textual reading of the Constitution. Conservatives have been in hiding for the past decade in fear of been overwhelmed by the leftist mobs who control the media, journalism and the streets.

His efforts, in case you missed it, are met with continual and ever-increasing aggressive violence.

I believe his strategy is to expose the anarchy and lawlessness of the left’s quest for power in order to convince the majority of hitherto reticent voters to challenge and rise up against the aggressive left in a way that will terminate their hegemony for the long term. The long walk of the left into the culture of the nation will require a long-term solution, not simple fixes. Intimidation from the left has left otherwise reasonable people fearful of opposing what are clearly irrational policies from the left.

 

[PaulinVA]

LOL. So, we use YOUR conscience?

That’s impractical, isn’t it?

 

[OraLabora]

In your opinion.

“Poor nutrition and hunger is responsible for the death of 3.1 million children a year. That’s nearly half of all deaths in children under the age of 5. Around 9 million people die every year of hunger and hunger-related diseases. This is more than from AIDS, malaria and tuberculosis combined.” Source: The World Counts

“According to UNICEF, 22,000 children die each day due to poverty. And they die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes these dying multitudes even more invisible in death.” Poverty Facts and Stats — Global Issues,

Indeed. Ignoring all other pro-life issues other than abortion does not make one pro-life, it makes one pro-birth.

 

[Boomster1]

I respect your opinion. You have every right to it.

With that said, I respectfully disagree with your perspective on Trump’s strategy. We have almost four years of evidence to guide us. I profoundly believe that Trump is incapable of formulating complex strategies. His only go-to is chaos. I am a political moderate and have voted across the aisle on different occasions. I am singularly focused on God’s plan for me and for humanity. I’m not interested in following Trump’s plan.

Constitutional interpretation is only a theory. The Constitution is silent as to what mechanism those in the government should use to apply the law to the facts in a specific case. Textualism is a responsible approach to constitutional interpretation but it is not the only approach. Many respected jurists disagree with the Textualist approach.

I find it disingenuous at best for Conservatives to label the far left as anarchists and socialists. Do anarchists exist? Yes, of course, they do. And yes, socialists participate in our political system. I know a lot of decent people who self-identify as Democrats, Republicans, and Independent. These people aren’t extremists. They are decent human beings who just want to see compassion and love prevail.

What about the fascists on the far right? QAnon is a conspiracy group that is undermining America’s institutions. The FBI has identified the White Supremacist movement as a significant threat to the United States. The president of the United States himself fosters a belief in an all-encompassing deep-state, that threatens to destroy his presidency…because Trump and Trump alone has the greatest brain to solve America’s problems and recapture American greatness. Trump’s ability to manipulate and market his brand has created a cult of enablers. Trump can say and do almost anything today because his followers won’t hold him accountable.

Trump didn’t create the divisive political landscape in our country. But he took it to the next level.

The left doesn’t have a monopoly on the media, journalism, or the streets. FoxNews, Newsmax, OneAmerica News, and others represent the right. Conservative corporations have controlled radio for more than two decades. American radio is dominated by the right. Drudge, Breitbart, and other far-right-wing websites dominate the internet news space.

Right-wing propaganda circulates on Facebook and other social media platforms. The right has been hard at work for thirty-plus years creating a bunch of leftist boogeymen. Unfortunately, political tools like Roger Stone and others have the internet to spread their disinformation.

The left isn’t pure either. I’m not defending the liberal establishment. That’s their job. I’m just sick and tired of the pervasive junk we hear from the right.

I can certainly understand how a faithful Catholic could hold their nose and vote for Trump. I freely admit the Republican party is much more likely to end abortion on demand than the Democrats. Nobody could argue that. I just don’t understand how anyone can buy into Trump’s propaganda. He’s a con man.

 

[Boomster1]

Sorry, not trying to pick on you but I wanted to address one other thing that you mentioned.

Conservatives have been in hiding for the past decade in fear of been overwhelmed by the leftist mobs who control the media, journalism and the streets.

Conservatives haven’t been in hiding. They’ve been screaming from the airwaves for thirty years. Clinton’s this, Obama’s that. The left is going to steal everyone’s teddybear! C’mon, there is not left-wing mob ready to come and get you. I live in a major metropolitan area in the midwest and my wife and kids and I sit on our deck every evening. We take walks to get ice cream. We’ve never feared for our lives. There is no left-wing or right-wing mob out there ready to pounce.

Does America have problems? Absolutely. Trump isn’t going to be the one to fix them because he doesn’t care and he doesn’t have the attention span to really learn about the real issues that divide America.

 

[OraLabora]

Life is life. You can’t claim to be pro-life unless you nurture all human life, from conception until natural death. « Pro-life » doesn’t end after birth.