Will "Altar Girls" lead to Women Priests?

[jmcrae]

Those are virtues not values.

A feminine value would be more along the lines of stressing emotions and personal relationships over a masculine value such as striving for excellence or success.

I thought it was the feminine ambition for success and excellence that got us into this situation, to begin with? (Post #24)

Those little seven year old female egos, wanting to be recognized for work well done, instead of simply wanting to serve Jesus, which is apparently the only reason why the boys do it?

 

[Milesius]

How was the Church more masculine in 1910?

The Church back then had some self respect, what the Churches enemies labelled triumphalism, but what was really just self confidence and certainly of purpose. It was a Church that dared to call its people to repentance and dared to teach about sin and hell and about how we are at war with the world, the flesh and the devil.

 

[Milesius]

Men who deal with their emotions in a womanly way such as by acting in a passive aggressive manner and making little bitchy comments trying to score points are another part of the problem to.

 

[kozlosap]

The Church back then had some self respect, what the Churches enemies labelled triumphalism, but what was really just self confidence and certainly of purpose. It was a Church that dared to call its people to repentance and dared to teach about sin and hell and about how we are at war with the world, the flesh and the devil.

I was not attending the Church in 1910. I think it is very easy for us to look back on the history of most institutions, whether it be the Church or the government, and think it was a much more “reasonable” time and that more things got done. I’m sure that the people who lived in 1910 also thought that the Church was a better place in 1870. Your posts sadden me. It’s quite clear that you love the Church but are having a difficult time with the evolution of women in the Western World. I certainly don’t agree that the church has been feminized, but that is only my opinion. Most women don’t wear a veil to mass and absolutely sit with their families and not in a separate location away from men. I hope you find a parish that meets your needs - I will pray for you. Walk with the Lord in peace.

 

[ConstantineTG]

haha, caught me on that one Constantine. IMHO, male altar servers have a clear path toward Priesthood and discernment.
However, with the NO mass and lectors, EMHCs I personally get the feeling that more and more people, both men and women, have a lesser understanding of the priestly role in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. With greater ability to take a part in the mass comes less of an incline toward pursuing a priestly role for the men I believe. It looses it’s appeal.
At least, that is the majority opinion of people I have spoken with in my church and surrounding churches.

I’ve learned a thing or two about being a smart A in my time in CAF

I think its more of a Catechisis issue if people don’t understand the role of a priest not only within the Mass, but within our faith. If people think that all a priest does is distribute Communion, we have a problem there.

See, participation brings about better things. Most people don’t know where else to grow their faith. Participation in Mass help foster that. Anyway, thats just my take on it.

 

[Milesius]

I was not attending the Church in 1910. I think it is very easy for us to look back on the history of most institutions, whether it be the Church or the government, and think it was a much more “reasonable” time and that more things got done. I’m sure that the people who lived in 1910 also thought that the Church was a better place in 1870. Your posts sadden me. It’s quite clear that you love the Church but are having a difficult time with the evolution of women in the Western World. I certainly don’t agree that the church has been feminized, but that is only my opinion. Most women don’t wear a veil to mass and absolutely sit with their families and not in a separate location away from men. I hope you find a parish that meets your needs - I will pray for you. Walk with the Lord in peace.

Well you should come to my parish then. There are only 5 men under the age of 40 and 2 of them are my brothers. Is it any wonder there is a priest shortage? To get just one priest from my parish you would need to effectively recruit 20% of the male membership young enough to really be eligible.

Or you could just take a look at the statistics on Mass attendance.

Read this link, its an excerpt from a much bigger book on the subject.

jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Feminism/church_impotent.htm

 

[ProVobis]

Anyway the problem is too complex to go into here anyone interested should read a very good book about the topic called The Church Impotent by Leon Podles.

 

[ac_claire]

Interesting thread. Does anyone know if there is a correlation between more “altar girls” and less boys wanting to be altar servers? I have heard of parishes where, once girls were introduced, the boys quit volunteering because they did not want to do what was now considered the girls’ activity.

Just something to think about.

I think so, absolutely. There are other reasons as well, mostly I think it’s on the parents’ shoulders, the parents aren’t encouraging their sons to be altar boys as much. That’s got to be a main reason.

Also remember that having altar girls isn’t anything that Rome is all excited about, you KWIM? I don’t have the citation here but I’ll dig it up if anyone wants to see it…When the practice was introduced it was made clear that it was now allowed, but not necessarily recommended. I just think that’s interesting. It’s one reason why I won’t let any of my future daughters to be altar servers, but we definitely will encourage our sons. And hopefully get some priests in the family eventually because of it.

 

[ProVobis]

Also remember that having altar girls isn’t anything that Rome is all excited about

I’ll say. Cardinal Arinze, who speaks for the Pope in liturgical matters, is definitely opposed to it.

youtube.com/watch?v=KWByiwHE4MY

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’ll say. Cardinal Arinze, who speaks for the Pope in liturgical matters, is definitely opposed to it.

youtube.com/watch?v=KWByiwHE4MY

Its a matter of discerning when does he speak for the Pope and when does he speak out of his own opinion. Or even if its an opinion shared with the Pope, but still an opinion.

Even the Pope doesn’t enjoy infallability with everything he says, even if its faith related. I don’t see why Cardinal Arinze should get that privilage.

 

[Apollos]

I do, however, believe that women and young girls should have active roles in their parishes and serve in whatever roles the Church allows. Just a question for those of you who oppose girls serving mass - what/how would you have them be an active member and feel that they are part of the parish and serving the Lord? (please don’t suggest that they be part of a group that “decorates”).

Are you saying altar girls were allowed in order to make them feel like a part of the parish? That’s real strange. I don’t see people arguing over vacuuming. Where did we get the idea that being up front on stage where everybody can see you is the be all and end all of participating in parish life?

Yes, real strange. There was one and only one category that girls were barred from, and now being an altar girl is somehow equated with meaningful participation.

 

[Apollos]

What I am saying is that if men don’t go to church because there are women there, than they are pathetic. If boys refuse to be altar servers because girls do it, they should seriously get a talking to from their parents.

Women are not an alternate species. It is possible to talk to them, to serve with them, to work on committees with them. If any man told me he wasn’t more involved because there were a lot of women, I cannot see that as anything other than an excuse.

And FWIW, I think in a lot of cases things are dominated by women because men haven’t stepped up.

Do you think parents should give their sons a tongue-lashing if they’re not interested in learning how to macrame themselves a purse? Should they be forced to listen to an entire Justin Bieber album?

Why are the ***boys ***the ones who get read the riot act?

I quit the choir in my old church because it was becoming a homosexual clique. Do I need to take a sensitivity training course?

 

[edwest2]

So do I.

I can’t think of a single “feminine value” - justice, temperance, beauty, cleanliness, moral purity - that ought not to be shared by any right-thinking Christian, male or female.

The values you describe are not uniquely feminine. Sadly, the anarchists/radicals’ current mission is to teach heteros ‘gender neutrality.’ Not going to happen.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Phemie]

I find it ironic in parishes that allow only males to serve…especially in exclusively Traditional Latin Mass parishes, there is an over abundance of young men/boys serving…and the number of registered families in those parishes are usually significantly smaller than the local NO Cathedral…yet they produce more vocations and more Altar Boys…that should tell you something.

Yes, it tells me that families with lots of boys attend those parishes. OTOH, my parish barely see children, let alone boys, so we take what we can get.

 

[ac_claire]

What I am saying is that if men don’t go to church because there are women there, than they are pathetic. If boys refuse to be altar servers because girls do it, they should seriously get a talking to from their parents.

Women are not an alternate species. It is possible to talk to them, to serve with them, to work on committees with them. If any man told me he wasn’t more involved because there were a lot of women, I cannot see that as anything other than an excuse.

And FWIW, I think in a lot of cases things are dominated by women because men haven’t stepped up.

You may be right about this, or not. But in either case, has it been a *positive *development for the Church as a whole?

Also, if you’re right, I think it’s all part of a cycle…men don’t step up as much now perhaps because the lay liturgical ministries in a lot of parishes are now dominated by women.

If boys only stopped wanting to be altar boys because girls were introduced, then it stands to reason there were plenty of altar boys before. So if there were plenty of altar boys, why were girls introduced?

From what I’ve read, it’s like what a few other posters have said…there was pressure on Rome not to appear misogynist. In other words, political correctness IMO.

Why do you assume that girls who serve at the Altar are doing so merely out of ego? How is it that simply being male causes one’s motives to be pure, but simply being female causes one’s motives to be selfish?

This seems very sexist, to me.

I saw Scooby’s post (the one you were replying to here) as being more like a positive way to explain to your daughters why you won’t allow them to be altar servers even though some of their female friends or classmates might be.

Its a matter of discerning when does he speak for the Pope and when does he speak out of his own opinion. Or even if its an opinion shared with the Pope, but still an opinion.

Even the Pope doesn’t enjoy infallability with everything he says, even if its faith related. I don’t see why Cardinal Arinze should get that privilage.

The Cardinal is just one example. The Holy Father himself who allowed the practice is the one who said that it’s not recommended…

 

[edwest2]

I was not attending the Church in 1910. I think it is very easy for us to look back on the history of most institutions, whether it be the Church or the government, and think it was a much more “reasonable” time and that more things got done. I’m sure that the people who lived in 1910 also thought that the Church was a better place in 1870. Your posts sadden me. It’s quite clear that you love the Church but are having a difficult time with the evolution of women in the Western World. I certainly don’t agree that the church has been feminized, but that is only my opinion. Most women don’t wear a veil to mass and absolutely sit with their families and not in a separate location away from men. I hope you find a parish that meets your needs - I will pray for you. Walk with the Lord in peace.

“evolution of women”? Please describe.

Thank you,
Ed

 

[jerry74383]

I guess my “touching” story was just to illustrate that females servings at Mass are perfectly “fine” for some Catholics.

The key word here is ‘some’. I’m glad your daughter did not develop any unrealistic expectations as the result of serving at the altar. There are numerous accounts in other forums of young women who were not so fortunate – many of them having left the Church.

As an educator (high school) for thirty years then I am perfectly confident in believing that if a teenage boy is scared away from serving at Mass because there are female alter servers then he has no business becoming a priest or having any vocation were he will come into contact with 50% of the population.

I’m sure the Lord will take your opinion under advisement when He determines vocations. Seriously, if cocaine addicts can be called to the priesthood I’m sure boys who’d rather not hang around with girls can be, too.

In the vast majority of cases I don’t think it’s so much a matter of being scared as it is a lack of interest in participating in activities with girls. Consider also that many altar servers start (or decide not to) as young as 8-10, when the social dynamics between boys and girls is much different than in the teen years.

 

[Milesius]

Just a question for those of you who oppose girls serving mass - what/how would you have them be an active member and feel that they are part of the parish and serving the Lord? (please don’t suggest that they be part of a group that “decorates”).

If a person is only an active member of a parish if they have something to do in the sanctuary during the liturgy than about 95% of the people at mass are presumably inactive and feeling excluded from the parish and serving the Lord according to you are they?

Your understanding of what constitutes active participation is to narrow.

 

[Julianna]

I’m sorry, but I will side with 1960 years of tradition over a fallible ruling from Rome, her Bishops and Priest, especially on something which started as an abuse and resulted in Rome capitulating in hopes of appeasing modernist liberals. I know I am on the right side of this and I feel sorry for your’s and others’ daughters who are encouraged to take part in something that goes against Catholic Tradition…how confusing is it going to be when this** problem is addressed and eradicated? ** They were encouraged and allowed to do something, which their parents endorsed…all the while, it was not appropriate should never have been allowed…it is going to leave a bad taste in their mouth with The Church when this sharade is finally put to an end.

addressed and eradicated? You make sound like a disease or one of the seven deadly sins.

In YOUR opinion it should have never been allowed. Hate to break it to you there…but it is allowed. And if it is causing boys to not want to serve…it is the problem with the boys and not the girls. Sounds a bit wimpy to me.

It is tradition is some mid-eastern religions that women should not drive, get an education and must cover their entire body with a burka and always walk behind a man.

If you believe the Church is divinely inspired…then somewhere up there…it was decided to allow female altar servers.

Oh, btw…your name looks familiar…I recall you being on the CAF boards a few years ago…Welcome Back.

 

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

Its funny you say this…because in light of this being a modern creation and considering there is another 1960 years of Tradition (The Church existed before VII) that doesn’t include having girls serve on the altar, then I am inclined to believe that when making this argument, one must apply it to the situation we find ourselves in today. I will side with The Church and its rich 1900+ years of Tradition before VII, over the fallible beliefs and opinions of a bunch of cardinals, bishops, and priest that are running the Church today, because this is one issue they are wrong on, and in time, it will be corrected and probably be prevented from ever rearing its ugly head again by means of an infallible decree.

Its a matter of discerning when does he speak for the Pope and when does he speak out of his own opinion. Or even if its an opinion shared with the Pope, but still an opinion.

Even the Pope doesn’t enjoy infallability with everything he says, even if its faith related. I don’t see why Cardinal Arinze should get that privilage.