Will "Altar Girls" lead to Women Priests?

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

Ed…apparently there are those who think that an ever changing society means that The Church must change with it…guess they will soon be calling for openly gay Popes, homosexual marriages, abortion, etc…sad state of affairs isn’t it?

“evolution of women”? Please describe.

Thank you,
Ed

 

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

Julianna, thank you for your warm welcome, however I am not sure if you are confusing me with someone else. What was their name?

Back to the subject at hand…I do consider the dangers of this abuse to be a disease and damaging to the liturgy…but I understand you and others feel differently. I think history will prove that I and others who feel the way I do, are correct on this belief. It is a practice that will be stopped eventually…and I will be so happy when it is. You see, I think that The Lord works in mysterious ways, and I believe some things are being allowed to happen to The Church as a chastisement in order to get our attention…and this is just one of those chastisements

addressed and eradicated? You make sound like a disease or one of the seven deadly sins.

In YOUR opinion it should have never been allowed. Hate to break it to you there…but it is allowed. And if it is causing boys to not want to serve…it is the problem with the boys and not the girls. Sounds a bit wimpy to me.

It is tradition is some mid-eastern religions that women should not drive, get an education and must cover their entire body with a burka and always walk behind a man.

If you believe the Church is divinely inspired…then somewhere up there…it was decided to allow female altar servers.

Oh, btw…your name looks familiar…I recall you being on the CAF boards a few years ago…Welcome Back.

 

[pnewton]

If parents wanted to really do their jobs, they wouldn’t allow their daughters to serve in the first place.

Sure they will. Doing so teaches faithfulness and obedience to those in authority. It teaches humility, as opposed to teaching that they know better than the Church. That is the job of the parent.

Of course women priests will never be allowed. That is a matter of defined dogma. The gender of those who are altar servers is only a discipline of the Church.

 

[Bluegoat]

Do you think parents should give their sons a tongue-lashing if they’re not interested in learning how to macrame themselves a purse? Should they be forced to listen to an entire Justin Bieber album?

Why are the ***boys ***the ones who get read the riot act?

I quit the choir in my old church because it was becoming a homosexual clique. Do I need to take a sensitivity training course?

Look, people here are saying girls should not be servers because it makes it “girly”, and boys will then not be involved. Of all the arguments against the idea of altar girls, this is the worst. The same logic would say that we should not have girls in the choir, or in church at all, because the boys will not want to go. We could tell women they cannot be part of parish councils and such, so as to attract more men! That is not an acceptable attitude, no matter what the context. Service to the church is about service, not just what we feel we would like. A boy who uses this excuse doesn’t understand what serving at the altar is about. He can hang out with his male friends after Mass if that’s what he wants to do.

I actually do think there are reasons that there are more women in church than men, reasons which should be addressed. The same reasons keep some women away as well, and they are not good for anyone. And this has led to a situation where women carry an inordinate amount of the burden in running the parishes, and even bringing religion into the home. And this in turn does compound the original problem, making the impression of religion as a feminine interest stronger.

But that doesn’t make not wanting to hang out with women an acceptable reason to avoid being involved in the church. And having only male altar servers is not going to help at all as long as the more fundamental problems are there. My suspicion is if they were fixed, it might not be an issue at all.

 

[CDNowak]

Well you should come to my parish then. There are only 5 men under the age of 40 and 2 of them are my brothers. Is it any wonder there is a priest shortage? To get just one priest from my parish you would need to effectively recruit 20% of the male membership young enough to really be eligible.

Or you could just take a look at the statistics on Mass attendance.

Read this link, its an excerpt from a much bigger book on the subject.

jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Feminism/church_impotent.htm

Third that! (started a group based in part on reading that).

 

[Milesius]

Another problem is women telling men that their attitudes are not acceptable. To which men say “Ok then I will go some place where they are because I didn’t come to church to be treat like a child by a bunch of wannabe surrogate mothers, bye.”

 

[pnewton]

Interesting thread. Does anyone know if there is a correlation between more “altar girls” and less boys wanting to be altar servers?

No one has ever done such a study that I am aware of. I would think that if the job is seen as sissy that the homosexual sex scandals associated with altar boys might play more of a role that the the fact that girls serve also. This is the factor that has been the most blown out of proportion in our society.

 

[ProVobis]

Of course its not all down to women in the sanctuary, there are many other contributing factors that have led to the feminisation of the religious experience on offer in most Christian churches and religious communities in the western world, but this is one of the bigger ones.

Don’t forget too the symbolism of removing the communion rails, which defined the sanctuary and to some extent the old Holy of Holies. There appears to be no sanctuary at all today and together with the responses made by the congregation now, the role of the server has now been undermined severely. The role of the server in the OF today is basically a token one, the way I see it. One could easily be the speaker and hand cruets to the priest if they wanted to do it that way. Are servers even required in the OF? I haven’t seen one in a couple of years and I’ve gone to quite a few OFs.

 

[edwest2]

Ed…apparently there are those who think that an ever changing society means that The Church must change with it…guess they will soon be calling for openly gay Popes, homosexual marriages, abortion, etc…sad state of affairs isn’t it?

Yes, Modernists have always believed that. They worship the god Change, as opposed to the God that is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. It is my observation that the only thing that might qualify as a sin for some is boredom. They simply want to be amused.

The radical feminists are still trying to impose their vision of divisiveness on the West. The way they operate is simple: declare one group the victims and the other group the enemy - for all time. Not a healthy or productive way to order a society but it offers the distorted ‘enjoyment’ of watching people attempting, against their proper nature, to fit into their vision. The resulting chaos and conflict keeps them amused.

God bless,
Ed

 

[jmcrae]

Another problem is women telling men that their attitudes are not acceptable. To which men say “Ok then I will go some place where they are because I didn’t come to church to be treat like a child, bye.”

The attitude that women have to tip-toe around on egg shells and do less than our best, lest we bruise a tender male ego, is definitely not acceptable. I don’t see any other attitudes being attacked, here.

What else shouldn’t I do, in case I bruise a man’s ego? Should I not do my job as well as I can, in case I’m better than a man? Should I flunk out of school so that I’m not a better student than any of the boys? Should I do a sloppy job of my home repairs or of taking care of my yard, so as not to bruise the male egos of my neighbors?

Women don’t go to Church to be shut out to the sidelines any more than men do. We all have to grow up and get along with people of the opposite sex. Jesus condemned everyone who buries their talents, and He didn’t distinguish between male and female.

I doubt He would have any sympathy for someone who goes around burying other people’s talents; do you?

 

[Julianna]

Wow.

As a father of a son and daughters, I find the opinions expressed here very troubling.

The call of the Holy Spirit to the priesthood is thwarted by 10 year old girls serving on the altar? Really? Do you people really think that a priestly vocation hinges on whether the man got to be an altar boy in an all-male setting? Men called to the priesthood are that fragile?

If allowing girls to serv on the altar tells boys that religion is “girly” and ruins the Church, then what does excluding girls from everything tell them?

I never thought I would say anything in favor of altar girls(I don’t care one way or the other) but really… This is troubling.

:clapping::tiphat:

 

[DOShea]

Something I find missing from this thread is the related discussion about how wrong it must be for married men to be Deacons. If female altar servers means they will want to be priests and meet with frustration when they cannot, then please explain why that same logic does not apply to married men as Deacons. Surely they will “want to become priests” and run headlong into the same obstacle, this time being the celibacy thing.

We don’t see that problem, yet if the female server logic is true, then we not only should, but must. Since we don’t, I think the argument is refuted. Also, where is the evidence that any girl who serves at the altar where allowed is going to end up frustrated over denial of Holy Orders. Can anyone name a single person claiming to be in this situation, or is this all just imaginary, wishful thinking?

If you simply don’t like it, meaning you don’t prefer it, why not just say that? Why try to offer situations that someday, maybe, might, possibly, if the wind blows the right way… happen?

 

[Milesius]

Women don’t go to Church to be shut out to the sidelines any more than men do.

And you think just been a Catholic who goes to Mass and prays in the pew with the priest is the sidelines do you?

It is not enough for you to just be able to attend Mass is it not, you need something more?

I guess this is why churches started just inventing a million “ministries” so that everyone could feel important and not think they were sitting on the sidelines.

After all its all about how women feel, that’s the important thing right, that’s what church is all about?

 

[jmcrae]

And you think just been a Catholic who goes to Mass and prays in the pew with the priest is the sidelines do you?

It is not enough for you to just be able to attend Mass is it not, you need something more?

Okay. So, if a boy is in the pew, and a girl is serving at the Altar, the boy has been shut out, and he will want to go home and cry, and he will never want to come to Church again, because of his tender ego.

Same situation if both the boy and the girl are serving at the Altar together. The mere sight of the girl serving is such a blow to his ego that he cannot bear to come to Church any more.

But if a girl is in the pew, and a boy is serving at the Altar, this is fine, and the girl should not feel like anything is wrong.

Please explain.

 

[mellowcalico]

I go to two Churches… one with only altar boys and one with boys and girls. The one with mostly boys is my parish, the other is my mom’s (I go to her Church when I visit for the weekend).

One thing I’ve noticed that might be helping our parish with altar boys–we have a priest who is actively involved with the youth. He greets boys and girls by name, he knows who they are. And on more than one occasion he’s said to a boy, “you should be an altar server… talk to ___” (and he gives them the name of an altar boy about that kid’s age). The priest at my mom’s parish is very involved with the older people of the parish, but he is kind of cold towards the youth–he’s not mean or anything, but standoffish.

I think along with parents encouraging boys, you also need a priest who is interested in the young people of the parish. I am not saying it’s the priest’s fault or responsibility, but I think it helps.

One more thing. Yes or no to girl altar servers, I am sorry, people are responsible for their own actions. Saying a boy won’t do something because a girl is there or vice versa is just making excuses. I am sick of all this victimhood nonsense that has taken over our culture. Everyone is a victim of someone’s actions and can’t take responsibility for his or her own feelings–at least that’s what it seems like.

 

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

They are filled with the Traditional Catholic families where it is not odd to see mother and father with 4-7 kids in tow every Sunday…where on the other hand at NO parishes, where the number of spouses who contracept match the national average, the families are very small and it is nothing to see a young married couple in there 30’s who have been married for over 10 years, yet have no children…and the ones that do, usually have 1 or 2 at the most. Chew on that for a while…

Yes, it tells me that families with lots of boys attend those parishes. OTOH, my parish barely see children, let alone boys, so we take what we can get.

 

[CDNowak]

The summary of reasons I am opposed to altar girls: Lex Orandi Lex Credendi (est), Altar servers, like readers are substitute for those who properly should be carrying out these duties: instituted ministers (by definition male). The instituted ministers are a replacement for the suppressed minor and major clerical orders (Lector, minor and Subdeacon, major). in other words, altar servers are stand-ins (from a practiacl theology perspective) for clerics. They participate, rather directly in the ministry of the priest. This “lived-theology” standpoint creates the confusion that leads people to ask if women priests are next. It is only natural that serving leads to ordination, as an apprenticeship to mastery or a page to knighthood.

***Psychology. *** As much as proponents of girls on the altar deride the “sexism” of little boys, the fact is that boys and men retreat from activities that come to be seen as feminine. Very few men would think of trying to entering a convent, join the women’s Bible study, etc. Christianity, like most religions and spiritualities, is already “marketed” to the feminine and has been since the end of the Crusades.

Does anybody have any arguments for the practice of girls serving other than authority (I can cite authority too: more Popes, Councils, and synods than there have been since the practice was allowed) or “why not”?

 

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

I’m sorry…but I have to ask and I mean no disrespect…but why is an “Anglican” telling Catholics how they should conduct their affairs in The Church?

Look, people here are saying girls should not be servers because it makes it “girly”, and boys will then not be involved. Of all the arguments against the idea of altar girls, this is the worst. The same logic would say that we should not have girls in the choir, or in church at all, because the boys will not want to go. We could tell women they cannot be part of parish councils and such, so as to attract more men! That is not an acceptable attitude, no matter what the context. Service to the church is about service, not just what we feel we would like. A boy who uses this excuse doesn’t understand what serving at the altar is about. He can hang out with his male friends after Mass if that’s what he wants to do.

I actually do think there are reasons that there are more women in church than men, reasons which should be addressed. The same reasons keep some women away as well, and they are not good for anyone. And this has led to a situation where women carry an inordinate amount of the burden in running the parishes, and even bringing religion into the home. And this in turn does compound the original problem, making the impression of religion as a feminine interest stronger.

But that doesn’t make not wanting to hang out with women an acceptable reason to avoid being involved in the church. And having only male altar servers is not going to help at all as long as the more fundamental problems are there. My suspicion is if they were fixed, it might not be an issue at all.

 

[mellowcalico]

They are filled with the Traditional Catholic families where it is not odd to see mother and father with 4-7 kids in tow every Sunday…where on the other hand at NO parishes, where the number of spouses who contracept match the national average, the families are very small and it is nothing to see a young married couple in there 30’s who have been married for over 10 years, yet have no children…and the ones that do, usually have 1 or 2 at the most. Chew on that for a while…

Please don’t judge people like this. I am in my 30s and have only 1 child–it’s not for lack of trying, it was just God’s will (and his blessing as I thought I was infertile). I am not saying you are wrong about possible contraception use, but I am saying it’s very hard and hurtful to those who struggle to have children to assume.

 

[jmcrae]

Does anybody have any arguments for the practice of girls serving other than authority (I can cite authority too: more Popes, Councils, and synods than there have been since the practice was allowed) or “why not”?

Because it is an appropriate way for children to be of service to Christ and to their parish, and it’s a means for them to develop the habit of volunteerism at an early age.

I don’t know of any other Church ministries that children as young as seven would be allowed to do.