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agapewolf
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I wasnt’ dismissing you in any way. you said:
Which means you don’t understand what submission means. Especially in the context of other things you have said (stepford wife)
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whatevergirl
Guest
*I think that the term submit throws a lot of people, too. Over the centuries, the word has developed into a bad thing, especially since the advent of feminism.
That being said, we are not clones of each other (or drones) We all are individual, and how we live out the laws of Scripture, the principles that Christ taught–might vary from family to family. A woman doesn’t have to have a sparkling clean home to show she is submissive…to show that her husband is head of household. To show her love. A woman can have a job outside of the home, and hobbies…and still be following what Christ wants for her, and be pleasing to her husband, and there for her children. There is no right or wrong answer here…we all have our opinions, and we all live our lives differently.
When we marry, we become one flesh…when my husband hurts, I hurt…when I hurt, he hurts. Submission doesn’t mean that a man can snap his fingers and his wife comes a runnin.’ I think some women think that is what it means, and it doesn’t. Each family works out their lives differently…I can’t tell a woman she is wrong for doing this or that. If I do, it’s only my opinion. That being said, when a wife and husband have mutual respect for one another, and treat each other as one flesh…marriages will be at their pinnacle best. Becoming one flesh doesn’t mean we lose who we are as individuals. My husband doesn’t make unreasonable expectations of me, and I feel sad for some of my friends who live like that…clearly, their husbands are twisting what the whole ‘submission’ principle is about. Being submissive means you want the best for your husband. IN TURN, Christ asks men to love their wives as He loved the Church. I think we forget that it’s a two-part pact.
I think that we could go on and on with each other–but these are our opinions…and as long as we respect each other’s views, that is the important thing.
*
That being said, we are not clones of each other (or drones) We all are individual, and how we live out the laws of Scripture, the principles that Christ taught–might vary from family to family. A woman doesn’t have to have a sparkling clean home to show she is submissive…to show that her husband is head of household. To show her love. A woman can have a job outside of the home, and hobbies…and still be following what Christ wants for her, and be pleasing to her husband, and there for her children. There is no right or wrong answer here…we all have our opinions, and we all live our lives differently.
When we marry, we become one flesh…when my husband hurts, I hurt…when I hurt, he hurts. Submission doesn’t mean that a man can snap his fingers and his wife comes a runnin.’ I think some women think that is what it means, and it doesn’t. Each family works out their lives differently…I can’t tell a woman she is wrong for doing this or that. If I do, it’s only my opinion. That being said, when a wife and husband have mutual respect for one another, and treat each other as one flesh…marriages will be at their pinnacle best. Becoming one flesh doesn’t mean we lose who we are as individuals. My husband doesn’t make unreasonable expectations of me, and I feel sad for some of my friends who live like that…clearly, their husbands are twisting what the whole ‘submission’ principle is about. Being submissive means you want the best for your husband. IN TURN, Christ asks men to love their wives as He loved the Church. I think we forget that it’s a two-part pact.
I think that we could go on and on with each other–but these are our opinions…and as long as we respect each other’s views, that is the important thing.
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adopted_heir
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(First, for the record, I’m not addressing the other half of the verses in Eph. because those aren’t the discussion at hand, and I’m not a husband. I’d sure talk about “Husbands, love your wives” but the topic I’ve been concerned with so far is “Wives, submit to your own husbands.” So it’s not that I’ve forgotten the double-mandate, just that only one is the subject right now.)
Who said the wife can’t voice her feelings? God pity the wife who can’t approach her husband if her heart is troubled. BUT that doesn’t give her license to bring him down into her misery so they can both have a pity party and dwell on all that’s wrong in their lives. That’s not how it works. If she’s going to just complain and poop around, nobody wants to deal with that. Everybody’s entitled to a little bit of healthy catharsis, but once a person dwells in that place, it drives everyone else away. How many people who constantly have some crisis or devastating illness they can’t wait to tell you about do you look forward to seeing?
That said, a wife can share her feelings; I don’t know where you got the idea that being a submissive wife meant you have to suppress your feelings and needs, but in any proper godly relationship, the self comes last, especially when there are children. I know it’s a popular philosophy, but I hate that mentality that says “I need to take care of ME before I can take care of others.” That’s exactly the opposite of how God created us. We were made to love each other, as Christ loved us. Can you imagine how the redemption history would be different if Jesus had said, “I can’t go on the Cross today, I’m overworked and stressed out; I just need some ME TIME.” The obsession with self is never healthy, least of all in a marriage.
If I have something that is grieving my heart, I know I can talk to my husband, and he will guide me and help me through it. He will offer solutions so I don’t sit on my pity pot all day. He will be the uplifting support, rather than an isolating sympathizer. Likewise if I am happy about something, I share it with him and double our happiness. And since my husband is confident in his authority in our home, he can ask me and I can give my thoughts and feelings on issues and decisions, without it being a challenge or an argument. If we disagree, he gets the final say because he is my husband. If he does something I think is unwise, so be it. I will shut my mouth and trust him because my marriage is more important than a few dollars or something stupid like that.
Besides, I’m too busy to be a Stepford wife. A wife plans ahead to see her family’s needs are met. For the person who mentioned shining shoes earlier, if that man were married, his shoes would already have been shined because his wife would have seen the need and met it, then she could have the satisfaction of knowing she did something to please and ease her husband. Besides, a Stepford wife is a moron, a good wife is not. She is wise and eager to learn more, and apply her knowledge and wisdom. As far as “needs,” they are met well, and my husband is eager to meet them because he knows the hard work I put in each day to make sure he’s happy to come home. I keep a garden (well, three little ones) for my own pleasure. I write, paint, and bake when I am done with my work. I know this may not work for all women, but I think that’s probably going to be because a lot of women have a skewed sense of what “submission” means. My husband is the captain, I’m the first mate. When captain’s gone, I’m in charge of everything. When he’s here, he has first and final say.
No Christ didn’t say so explicitly, but he did expect to be served by Mary and Martha, the woman at the well, and he definitely didn’t turn away the service of the woman caught in sin. What kind of cow would modern feminists have if a woman came weeping into a dinner party and washed the men’s feet? Rather she was blessed for seeing his need and addressing it, rather than going therapy shopping and getting some “me time.”
The needs of the wife are the husband’s concern because he loves her; the needs of the husband are the wife’s concern.
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ac_claire
Guest
Amen to that!
Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.
Titus 2:3-5 Bid the older women likewise to be reverent in behavior, not to be slanderers or slaves to drink; they are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be sensible, chaste, domestic, kind, and submissive to their husbands, that the word of God may not be discredited.
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severus68
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And of course you do understand everything. This is a discussion ? I don’t think you know that.
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ac_claire
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Why the attitude severus? Are you feeling attacked…? I don’t want you to feel that way.
All we’re saying is that if you believe that being submissive, in the Biblical sense, is a bad thing then you do not understand Biblical submission. This is not one position among many to be discussed; it’s just the fact of the matter. If you’re Christian it’s important to understand that not everything is subjective/relative. There is objective truth and some things just are. The Church shows us what’s true and what’s not.
Maybe we can start with definitions. What do you, severus, think “submit” means in the context of Ephesians 5 and Titus 2? No talking points or ideology, just the definition of the word/concept as you understand it.
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Feanor2
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OOHH. . . what happens then? Scary!!! :bigyikes:
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agapewolf
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What in the world? Yes, why the attitude indeed. You have proven that you do not understand what it means. As I said before, read my past posts.
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severus68
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In response, in your description of the wife, you did say the submissive wife would wait to speak about things or to that effect. So is a wife to wait until her husband gives her permission to voice her feelings?
This is not about the “me mentality”. It is about both husband and wife caring for each other.
A wife is not a child sitting at her husband’s feet waiting to learn from him. Both should learn from each other, both should be eager to please each other.
Christ washed the feet of his apostles, he taught that all should serve others and that all should serve God. What is this cow of the modern feminists you are referring to.
I repeat, you have the right to live the life you want. Christ does not require all of us to live your kind of family life.
Yes I do know you are a wife.
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ac_claire
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And she has the kind of life that she wants, and so do I and many other men and women. Nobody has said the things that you’re refuting…you seem to be wrestling with a feminist straw man of your own creation. There’s no reason anyone should have a problem with Ephesians 5, so if you have a problem with it I conclude you just don’t understand it.
If you want to listen instead of just talking, we’d be happy to explain the Church’s teaching on this to you.
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whatevergirl
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*I don’t think she necessarily has a problem with the verse…I think if I might take a hunch here, that her issue is with how it SEEMS like some women are telling other women what the verse means, based on how they live their lives. I heard a great talk given by a priest when I was in Pittsburgh, who said that marriage is a merging of two people, for the good of the marriage…they become one flesh. But, that doesn’t mean the two fail to be individuals, with hobbies, talents, and interests OUTSIDE of the marriage. There are plenty of good Catholic wives who belong to charities, help the needy, are on golf teams, whatever…and husbands who would never think of telling them to give it all up so they are at their side for them 24/7. I think a man that expects such a wife, distorts the passage, himself…and is immature, frankly. I am peacefully married…I believe we are to submit as wives to our husbands, absolutely. But, I think that there is a tone here of some women trying to push their ideals onto others, and that is perhaps where I ‘think’ severus is coming from.
If you want to have no interests outside of your husband and kids, that is your choice…it’s not what God expects of us though. He calls us to serve Him and our families, but not forego who we were before marriage, for marriage. He calls us to put Him first and our families first before ourselves. But, again…that doesn’t mean that we forego our individuality. I don’t like house cleaning and gardening…I have different hobbies, and I don’t wait until every chore is done before I exercise, or go shopping. haha My husband still thinks I’m the cat’s pajamas…lol We’re all not married to the same types of men…my husband loves me for me…and I try my best everyday to grow in holiness, and serve him…but he does the same for me.
I find it interesting, that men AGAIN, don’t seem phased by these threads…but women seem to go at it for days on end. I will never understand why we women feel the need to debate each other over these topics…as if our way is the only way.
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whatevergirl
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*Suffice to say…
We shouldn’t scold other women on how they are in their marriages, simply because they don’t live their lives as we do, in our respective relationships. It’s not right to do that, in my opinion…I think that many women who are newly wed read these threads and think they are somehow ‘bad wives,’ if they are working out of the home, or belong to a gym, or have a girls night out, or stink at cooking. I’m here to tell you, you are not a bad wife, and if someone tells you that, pray for them to not be so judgemental. *
We shouldn’t scold other women on how they are in their marriages, simply because they don’t live their lives as we do, in our respective relationships. It’s not right to do that, in my opinion…I think that many women who are newly wed read these threads and think they are somehow ‘bad wives,’ if they are working out of the home, or belong to a gym, or have a girls night out, or stink at cooking. I’m here to tell you, you are not a bad wife, and if someone tells you that, pray for them to not be so judgemental. *
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JaneGrey
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Such a relief to know that that are still some sensible Catholic women out there. Iam not Catholic anymore but I dont want this religion to be seen as backward by those who dont know it. And I cant beleive some people are bringing the devil into it. Of all things!
God bless
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severus68
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Yes, thank you whatevergirl, that is exactly where I am coming from. You are right many women seem to like pushing other women down.*I don’t think she necessarily has a problem with the verse…I think if I might take a hunch here, that her issue is with how it SEEMS like some women are telling other women what the verse means, based on how they live their lives. I heard a great talk given by a priest when I was in Pittsburgh, who said that marriage is a merging of two people, for the good of the marriage…they become one flesh. But, that doesn’t mean the two fail to be individuals, with hobbies, talents, and interests OUTSIDE of the marriage. There are plenty of good Catholic wives who belong to charities, help the needy, are on golf teams, whatever…and husbands who would never think of telling them to give it all up so they are at their side for them 24/7. I think a man that expects such a wife, distorts the passage, himself…and is immature, frankly. I am peacefully married…I believe we are to submit as wives to our husbands, absolutely. But, I think that there is a tone here of some women trying to push their ideals onto others, and that is perhaps where I ‘think’ severus is coming from.
If you want to have no interests outside of your husband and kids, that is your choice…it’s not what God expects of us though. He calls us to serve Him and our families, but not forego who we were before marriage, for marriage. He calls us to put Him first and our families first before ourselves. But, again…that doesn’t mean that we forego our individuality. I don’t like house cleaning and gardening…I have different hobbies, and I don’t wait until every chore is done before I exercise, or go shopping. haha My husband still thinks I’m the cat’s pajamas…lol We’re all not married to the same types of men…my husband loves me for me…and I try my best everyday to grow in holiness, and serve him…but he does the same for me.
I find it interesting, that men AGAIN, don’t seem phased by these threads…but women seem to go at it for days on end. I will never understand why we women feel the need to debate each other over these topics…as if our way is the only way.
“Peace on earth and goodwill to all men”.
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severus68
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Really? I will say I “of little understanding” have no intention of doing so.
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ac_claire
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The main reason these threads go on forever, IMO, is because some women post their own testamonials about a verse or concept or sacrament or whatever, and other women start posting demanding that the first posters retract their insistance that all women feel and live the way we do. When…no such insistance was ever made.I find it interesting, that men AGAIN, don’t seem phased by these threads…but women seem to go at it for days on end. I will never understand why we women feel the need to debate each other over these topics…as if our way is the only way.
(See the recent “How important should a woman’s career be…” thread for more examples)People are defensive and over-sensetive and they jump into these threads swinging, not for any kind of discussion but to “make a point”!
I feel for all of us, but it’s getting tiring. We’re called to witness to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see…I’m at the point on some of these threads where I feel more like shaking the dust from my feet and going on my way.
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whatevergirl
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*I hear you, claire. I think though, when I take a step back, we really all DO understand the passage, and most of the women in these threads post that they are following the teachings. So, I don’t know why some women feel the need to justify what they’re doing, or why another wife/mom feels the need to make remarks that seem judgemental, or that the women don’t understand the passage. Only God knows my heart (and me lol). As long as couples are trying their best to work out God’s plan for their lives, follow Christ’s teachings, etc…it doesn’t matter what others think. Again, projecting the way we all live our lives onto others, isn’t helpful, and I think it turns these threads sour.The main reason these threads go on forever, IMO, is because some women post their own testamonials about a verse or concept or sacrament or whatever, and other women start posting demanding that the first posters retract their insistance that all women feel and live the way we do. When…no such insistance was ever made.
People are defensive and over-sensetive and they jump into these threads swinging, not for any kind of discussion but to “make a point”!
I feel for all of us, but it’s getting tiring. We’re called to witness to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see…I’m at the point on some of these threads where I feel more like shaking the dust from my feet and going on my way.
I do think most of the women though on here, seem to be following God’s plan-albeit it might be in a different capacity than another lady on here.
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ac_claire
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But who is projecting…? Mostly people are just posting. And the reason is they want to deny one simple fact, that the Bible tells wives to submit. How that works in your marriage or mine or someone else’s will of course vary and I agree with you that different people can be both doing their best and doing things somewhat differently from eachother.
However…to take that point to the extreme of saying that the BIble doesn’t in fact say what it does…the Church does not teach what it has for 2000 years…or, maybe it did *then *but it’s not relevant now…or, “that was just Paul talking, not Jesus…” These are all lies that can’t be defended. There’s a difference between harmless “our ways are different yet equal” discussions (which is I believe what you were talking about…?
) and out and out twisting/distorting the truth…right?
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whatevergirl
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Yes, that is true…I might have missed some posts, but I didn’t notice that someone had said that it was Paul who spoke that out of his own accord, and not Jesus. No, that is not true…but true, like you said, we are to witness…and if someone chooses not to hear, so be it. But, towards the end of this thread, it seems that there wasn’t any disagreement, yet the bantering continued. That’s kind of what threw me.But who is projecting…? Mostly people are just posting. And the reason is they want to deny one simple fact, that the Bible tells wives to submit. How that works in your marriage or mine or someone else’s will of course vary and I agree with you that different people can be both doing their best and doing things somewhat differently from eachother.
However…to take that point to the extreme of saying that the BIble doesn’t in fact say what it does…the Church does not teach what it has for 2000 years…or, maybe it did *then *but it’s not relevant now…or, “that was just Paul talking, not Jesus…” These are all lies that can’t be defended. There’s a difference between harmless “our ways are different yet equal” discussions (which is I believe what you were talking about…?
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ac_claire
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I won’t lay it all on our most recent contributers to this thread, but all those excuses have been used in these very pages, a couple times. At this point…yeah it’s a lot of bantering, that’s a good word for it. In any case, I’m gonna take a nice little breather from this here thread before I do any more of that typing-before-thinking thing I was telling you about lol.
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