"Works" Salvation? Part 2

[Truthstalker]

Perseverance is guaranteed for the elect.

Only if you look at it from the standpoint of “having arrived”, that is, actually in heaven. You can rephrase this as “those who perservere are those who make it into heaven.” Well, duh. That is looking at it backwards in time. Looking forward, we don’t know who of the group that is claiming to follow Christ is actually going to make it - false assurance can be a problem - and the only way we can see it on earth is to look at the fruit of faith in someone’s life. It is the same semantic statement: those who believe bear fruit; the elect will bear fruit; fruit is the result of repentence, etc.

I wonder if some are saying you have to believe the way they do, you need to arrive at a certain intellectual understanding in order to be saved, otherwise you are lost. If this is the case then intellectual competence is the saving issue, not faith, and thus grounds for boasting.

Works follow faith. Works will follow those who believe. Salvation is by grace through faith, and works follow this. These works are works stemming from grace, God’s work in and through us, not works of the law or the flesh.

You have peace because you trust God to bring you home safe. How do you know you are really a member of the elect? You have to trust God with it. You cannot trust emotion or anything else. You cannot trust yourself or any work of the flesh or the law. And I think this is entirely Catholic.

 

[sandusky]

geezerbob:

Your arguments seem to run counter to what our Savior taught, which is, do what I commanded and be saved, don’t and be damned. Before you knock Catholicism any more, please explain that one to me. No side issues, just reconcile that parable with your theology.

No side issues?

Bob, please provide book, chapter, and verse where Jesus says, “do what I commanded and be saved, don’t and be damned.”

That’s old covenant: keep my law, and I will bless you; break my law, and I will curse you.

It is said by Jesus, and of Jesus that the one who “believes” has eternal life (Jn 3:18; 12:44; 20:31; 1 Jn 5:13; Acts 16:31; Rom 10:9, 10, 11, 13, and on, and on, and on, and on…)

God gave law to Adam verbally; Adam couldn’t keep it; with Israel He wrote the law on stone; Israel couldn’t keep it; He then wrote the law on men’s hearts; men still couldn’t keep it; so He’s has given His Spirit, that men might keep the law; and, they still can’t keep the law perfectly (Rom 7:14ff; Gal 5:17), and that is the requirement of using the law to gain eternal life—one must keep the law perfectly (cf Mt 5:48).

The true purpose of the law is not that men keep it, but that the law might show man that he is a sinner (Rom 3:20; 4:15; 5:20; 7:7); it is described in Galatians as a tutor that drives us to Christ, and hopefully causes us to put our faith in what He has capably done, and not in what we are incapable of doing, though we should never cease from striving to keep the law perfectly.

In Mt 9:22, Mk 5:34, 10:52, Lk 7:50, 8:48, 17:19, 18:42, as Jesus heals in those verses He says to the ones healed, “your faith has {zōdzō}—saved you; not just healed you, but saved you.

It’s all about faith.

Catholics on this thread keep saying that we must do the work of God; here is Jesus definition of the work of God:John 6:28-29

Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, THAT you believe in Him whom He has sent.”What else can I say?

 

[geezerbob]

Sandusky, that is the message in the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25. Sorry, but I just can’t buy your tortuous explanation of that parable which someone quoted earlier.

Christ’s message was pretty simple and straightforward. Those who believe in Him and obey Him will be saved. Those who reject Him obviously won’t. What should be equally obvious is that those who believe but don’t obey won’t be saved, either. How you can twist this parable to mean anything else is beyond me.

A parallel lesson from the old testament can be found in Isaiah 58 where you will find one of many exhortations to care for the widows, orphans and wanderers. God even goes so far as to tell His people that their prayers will not be heard until they become obedient.

The main lesson to be learned from the bible is consistent throughout both testaments, and that is to love God and love your neighbor. The rest of it consists mostly of instructions to help us do just that, and, yes, it does require work and obedience that none of us who ever hope to enter heaven are exempt from.

You can quote passages of scripture in defense of your position from now until the day of your judgment, but it will never change God’s eternal message of love and obedience. As I posted earlier, study the simple teachings of Jesus first, then study Paul in light of what Jesus taught. Honestly doing that just may cause you to change your mind about a few things.

 

[sandusky]

Sandusky, that is the message in the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25. Sorry, but I just can’t buy your tortuous explanation of that parable which someone quoted earlier.

Christ’s message was pretty simple and straightforward. Those who believe in Him and obey Him will be saved. Those who reject Him obviously won’t. What should be equally obvious is that those who believe but don’t obey won’t be saved, either. How you can twist this parable to mean anything else is beyond me.

A parallel lesson from the old testament can be found in Isaiah 58 where you will find one of many exhortations to care for the widows, orphans and wanderers. God even goes so far as to tell His people that their prayers will not be heard until they become obedient.

The main lesson to be learned from the bible is consistent throughout both testaments, and that is to love God and love your neighbor. The rest of it consists mostly of instructions to help us do just that, and, yes, it does require work and obedience that none of us who ever hope to enter heaven are exempt from.

You can quote passages of scripture in defense of your position from now until the day of your judgment, but it will never change God’s eternal message of love and obedience. As I posted earlier, study the simple teachings of Jesus first, then study Paul in light of what Jesus taught. Honestly doing that just may cause you to change your mind about a few things.

Thanks Bob; I’ll just be a good person.

 

[clmowry]

Maybe I missed it in the bazillion or so post on this thread, but I’m surprised that no reference to the

***JOINT DECLARATION ***

ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

has been made.

Watching you guys go back and forth I see you continuously overstating each others cases.

i.e. Protestant accusing Catholics of working their way into heaven and Catholics accusing protestants of believing the works are of no importance and are no reflection of a persons salvation.

It might be helpful if you guys identified those things where you actually agree.

i.e. Justification is brought about through God’s grace alone.

And confine your arguments to those items where there is true disagreement.

i.e. Whether or not a persons salvation can be lost of not? Whether man is some how a participant in whether he receives salvation or not? etc.

Though I think there are some who take extreme positions on any given subject, it seems to me that the “main line” participants in this tread actually agree to much more than they disagree.

Chuck

 

[geezerbob]

Thanks Bob; I’ll just be a good person.

You apparently overlooked the first part. Faith first, then obedience.

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

No side issues?

Bob, please provide book, chapter, and verse where Jesus says, “do what I commanded and be saved, don’t and be damned.”\

I know of no Catholic theologian who teaches what you posted above.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Bob, please provide book, chapter, and verse where Jesus says, “do what I commanded and be saved, don’t and be damned.”

My name is Randy, not Bob, but I’d vote for the following:

53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. (John 6:53)

That’s about as black and white as it gets.

Know transubstantiation, know Jesus. No transubstantiation, no Jesus.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[guanophore]

Bob, please provide book, chapter, and verse where Jesus says, “do what I commanded and be saved, don’t and be damned.”

I am not Bob either, but I have this to offer:

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. John 3:35-4:1

They type of faith that Jesus requires of us is obedient faith. This is why the Catholic Church does not teach sola fide.

What did Jesus command in the Great Commission?

" Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” Matt 28:18-20

He said make disciples, not “have everyone say the sinners prayer”. He did not say “tell them they will be saved by faith alone”. He told them to OBSERVE ALL COMMANDED!

That’s old covenant: keep my law, and I will bless you; break my law, and I will curse you.

This is a misrepresentation, sandusky. God set out the law before the people and told them to choose. Deut 30:19-20
I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days,

God desires all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. He wants everyone to choose life. However, the law contains it’s own curse /penalty for disobedience.

Furthermore, Jesus did not abolish the law and the commandments, He fulfilled them. Not one letter of them will pass away until He returns in glory.

God gave law to Adam verbally; Adam couldn’t keep it; with Israel He wrote the law on stone; Israel couldn’t keep it; He then wrote the law on men’s hearts; men still couldn’t keep it; so He’s has given His Spirit, that men might keep the law; and, they still can’t keep the law perfectly (Rom 7:14ff; Gal 5:17), and that is the requirement of using the law to gain eternal life—one must keep the law perfectly (cf Mt 5:48).

So, you are saying that God created man to live forever in fellowship with Himself, then put him in a position to be damned by giving him a commandment he was not able to keep? No, man was able to keep it, but chose not to do so:

" Our fathers refused to obey him, but thrust him aside, and in their hearts"Acts 7:39

The true purpose of the law is not that men keep it, but that the law might show man that he is a sinner (Rom 3:20; 4:15; 5:20; 7:7); it is described in Galatians as a tutor that drives us to Christ, and hopefully causes us to put our faith in what He has capably done, and not in what we are incapable of doing, though we should never cease from striving to keep the law perfectly.

No, God gave us the law so that we can live in peace with ourselves, one another, and Him. It is our rebellion that prevents this from happening. But, Jesus did not come to abolish the law, and Jesus taught that we should keep the commandments.

Catholics on this thread keep saying that we must do the work of God; here is Jesus definition of the work of God:John 6:28-29

Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, THAT you believe in Him whom He has sent.”What else can I say?

Glad you got my point sandusky! Faith belongs to people, and it is our faith that will save us, but we must apply it. It must be mixed with God’s grace, and His grace, working through our faith, will produce in us obedience to His commandments. It is a cooperative work.

 

[onenow1]

Originally Posted by sandusky
Catholics on this thread keep saying that we must do the work of God; here is Jesus definition of the work of God:
John 6:28-29

Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, THAT you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
What else can I say?

John 6: 30, So they said, 'What sign will you yourself do, the sight of which will make us believe in you ?

John 6: 31- 75 Jesus response to them in these verses, of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Just passing through.

Peace OneNow1

 

[mikeledes]

You are full of assumptions, Mike; here is a statement made by me on the thread from which this thread has come:Is that clearer for you, Mike?

The problem is that the “reward” given is eternal life. It does not say in Romans 2 or Galatians 6 that they got nice crowns or other imperishable goodies.

You continue trying to make Ezekiel say something that he is not saying. Let’s look elsewhere.1 Corinthians 11:29-32

29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.
31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.In the above passage, many of those believers were weak, sick, and some died in their sin (but, all of their transgressions had been forgiven on the cross (Col 2:13); Paul clearly says that was discipline, and not a loss of eternal life, because on the promise of God, Christ’s will never perish (cf Heb 12:4-11; notice the severity of God in the discipline referred to as “scourging…not joyful, but sorrowful”).

(That passage demonstrates that It is possible for one of Christ’s to sin to the point where God kills him; but that does not mean he loses salvation.)

Indeed there is temporal punishment for sin. But we have no indication in 1 Corinthians that those who have died did not lose their salvation. The fact that they are being disciplined in order that they may not may not be condemned with the world implies that such discipline is necessary to prevent loss of salvation. This obviously applies to those who are still alive, not those who have died. They are to learn from the mistakes of others and the example God has made of them.

Romans 9:6b…For they are not all Israel who are descended from IsraelLikewise, not all of those who profess Christ, are Christ’s.

But, it is possible to be among His, and to even look like His (cf Mt 13:25-30). You are assuming that all of those being addressed in Rom 11 are truly Christ’s; I’m certain that not all of them were, but if any in that situation were cut off, and, if what is meant by “cut off” is “to lose salvation,” then they were never Christ’s, because His will never perish.

Yes it is possible. But the problem is that Paul is adressing the passage to those who have fully been incorporated into God’s people:

Romans 11:20-22

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;

21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

You cannot cannot continue in something you were never a part of. If you were never in God’s kindness, you cannot “continue” in it. Also note the “you”. He is talking to genuine Christians.

You read every presupposition that have into the explanations that you give. That cannot be, as you say it is, “an image of eternal damnation.”Matthew 18:34

“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.There is no opportunity for repayment in hell.

That is a parable, and parables generally teach one point; the point of this parable is that the one forgiven by God in Christ, must be forgiving of others (cf Eph 4:32).

Since he cannot repay his debt, as indicated earlier in the parable, then he will be tortured forever. The torturers are an image of eternal damnation. Secondly, the parable clearly indicates that the man had reverted from a state of forgiveness to a state of debt. That can only mean that a person forgiven by God can revert to a state of debt.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[apophasis]

Only if you look at it from the standpoint of “having arrived”, that is, actually in heaven.

Which IS the divine standpoint:Eph. 2:4-7 “But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.”

Col. 3:1-4 "Therefore if (since) you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory."This is what it means in Scripture when it says “in Christ.” That every true believer is now "in Christ:"2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."These are called Biblical “indentification” truths. All true believers have been co-crucified and co-buried with Christ (Rom. 6:4, 6). And as Christ was raised from the dead to new life (having died TO SIN once for all), so have all who are His through faith. It’s how God sees every believer now “in Christ.” He has been “born again,” through faith in Christ (not ritual, water baptism), to eternal realities “in Christ Jesus.”

Yes, every true believer “has arrived.” There’s no going back. As I said, there’s far more to the resurrection than just a day celebrated by Christendom.

 

[guanophore]

He has been “born again,” through faith in Christ (not ritual, water baptism), to eternal realities “in Christ Jesus.”

Do you see a difference between “ritual” baptism and the baptism that Jesus gave?

Why does scripture describe baptism as cleansing?

“Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.” Eph 5:25-27

" let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water".Heb 10:22

Do you think the “washing of water” here is what you call “ritual baptism”?

21 Baptism…now saves you, 1 Peter 3:21

How do you account for the fact that baptized persons understood Jesus differently than the non-baptized? Maybe this is off topic…

Does this passage describe a “ritual baptism”? By “ritual” do you mean that it is empty of divine power?

“and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God,” Col 2:12

 

[sandusky]

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. John 3:35-4:1

I’m assuming the main force of this passage for you is v36. The Gk word translated ”obey” is, apeitheō, and it means disbelieve. So, the lack of obedience spoken of there is not believing (cf jn 3:18).

It’s all about FAITH.

guanophore:

He told them to OBSERVE ALL COMMANDED!

That doesn’t answer the request; in fact, none of your reply answers my request.

guanophore:

This is a misrepresentation, sandusky. God set out the law before the people and told them to choose. Deut 30:19-20
I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days,

God desires all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. He wants everyone to choose life. However, the law contains it’s own curse /penalty for disobedience.

Furthermore, Jesus did not abolish the law and the commandments, He fulfilled them. Not one letter of them will pass away until He returns in glory.

The law is good and holy, but it can’t save; it was never intended to save; it kills (Rom 7:9-12; cf Gal 5:4).

guanophore:

So, you are saying that God created man to live forever in fellowship with Himself, then put him in a position to be damned by giving him a commandment he was not able to keep?

No; that’s what you are saying; you read your presuppositions not only into scripture, but also into what I say.

 

[sandusky]

mikeledes:

The problem is that the “reward” given is eternal life. It does not say in Romans 2 or Galatians 6 that they got nice crowns or other imperishable goodies.

For the Catholic, eternal life is a reward (presupposition, anyone?); however, scripture defines it as gift—grace (Jn 4:10; Acts 15:11; Rom 6:23; cf Eph 2:5, 8).

mikeledes:

Indeed there is temporal punishment for sin.

Again you impose your presuppositions; the text clearly says that what occurred was discipline. Set aside your presups, and read the text.
mideledes:

But we have no indication in 1 Corinthians that those who have died did not lose their salvation. The fact that they are being disciplined in order that they may not may not be condemned with the world implies that such discipline is necessary to prevent loss of salvation. This obviously applies to those who are still alive, not those who have died. They are to learn from the mistakes of others and the example God has made of them.

We have every indication that they did not lose their salvation, because those who are Christ’s never perish.

The implications you take are birthed in your presuppositions; you arrive at a conclusion that is correct within your theological framework; but your conclusion is biblically incorrect.

mikeledes:

Yes it is possible. But the problem is that Paul is adressing the passage to those who have fully been incorporated into God’s people:

No; it is not possible for those who are Christ’s to lose their salvation. He promises that they will never perish; words have meanings for a reason; furthermore, your presupposition is such that you believe that everyone who sits in a church, and hears the reading of the scripture is saved; but that’s not true.

 

[mikeledes]

Sandunksy, I just want to add to what I said about the parable in Matthew. What did Jesus mean by saying that God “will do this to you also if you do not forgive?” Do what?

Hebrews 6:4-6

**4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.**

You cannot be a “partaker of the Holy Spirit” unless you have been genuinely justified. You cannot be renewed again to repentance if there was no repentance in the first place.

Hebrews 10:26-29

**26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?**

Please explain to me how someone who is not saved can be sanctified by the blood of Christ?

Hebrews 12:25

25See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven.

Please note the “we’” in this verse. The inspired author is including himself.

Concerning the “never perish verses.” Life is found in Christ and that life is eternal because it is the life of God. What is eternal is the life, not our partaking of it. Those in Christ partake of this life, just as the branches partake of the life-giving sap of the tree. Those who are in Christ will never perish because they partake of the life that is in Christ. However, this is under the assumption that the person will remain in Christ until the end. Those in Christ will never perish.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Harsalter]

We are justified by faith which means we are saved, in other words heaven bound.

That word “Saved” that protestants use so freely may send many to hell. The further protestants get away from the Church, the less theology they have, thus the need for this term.

But when you read, reflect and understand that “faith without works is dead” and the following scriptures,

*2 Peter 2:20-21 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2 Corinthians:27

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.*

Saved is great. But once saved does not mean always saved. That’s why this once southern baptist is now Catholic.

 

[Holly3278]

Not so Craig…The New Testament teaches that without works faith is dead.

You can pick verses from all over the place to try support your position, but when the issue is studied in the full context of the New Testament…the Catholic belief surfaces as the one that is the real New Testament teaching…

Let go of your insecurity blanket Craig and embrace what is there…not what you wish was there.
Pax tecum,

Yep, it says so right here:

James 2:17 KJV Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:17 DRB So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

 

[mikeledes]

For the Catholic, eternal life is a reward (presupposition, anyone?); however, scripture defines it as gift—grace (Jn 4:10; Acts 15:11; Rom 6:23; cf Eph 2:5, 8).

Again you impose your presuppositions; the text clearly says that what occurred was discipline. Set aside your presups, and read the text.

So Romans 2 says that those who persevere in doing good will be given eternal life. Galatians 6 says that those who sow to the Spirit will reap eternal life. What does that mean?
And discipline is not punishment? If I do something wrong and I suffer for it, it is a punishment.

We have every indication that they did not lose their salvation, because those who are Christ’s never perish.

The implications you take are birthed in your presuppositions; you arrive at a conclusion that is correct within your theological framework; but your conclusion is biblically incorrect

.

All of the above are based on presuppositions that are not biblical. You presuppose that a person can never lose their salvation based on an incorrect interpretation of verses and then try to explain away verses that contradict it.

No; it is not possible for those who are Christ’s to lose their salvation. He promises that they will never perish; words have meanings for a reason; furthermore, your presupposition is such that you believe that everyone who sits in a church, and hears the reading of the scripture is saved; but that’s not true.

And your presupposition regarding what I think is incorrect. Not everyone who sits in a pew is saved. But the verse in Romans 11 is directed to saved Christians. This is not a presupposition I impose on the text. This is what the text says. Unless, of course, you change the rules of semantics and grammar. /QUOTE]

God Bless,
Michael.

 

[sandusky]

So Romans 2 says that those who persevere in doing good will be given eternal life. Galatians 6 says that those who sow to the Spirit will reap eternal life. What does that mean?
And discipline is not punishment? If I do something wrong and I suffer for it, it is a punishment.

.

All of the above are based on presuppositions that are not biblical. You presuppose that a person can never lose their salvation based on an incorrect interpretation of verses and then try to explain away verses that contradict it.

And your presupposition regarding what I think is incorrect. Not everyone who sits in a pew is saved. But the verse in Romans 11 is directed to saved Christians. This is not a presupposition I impose on the text. This is what the text says. Unless, of course, you change the rules of semantics and grammar. /QUOTE]

God Bless,
Michael.

Thanks Mike; we have now entered the realm of argumentum ad nauseum, and so I will state once more before I puke, Christ’s promise is, His will never perish. :tiphat: