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Polak
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Okay when you think of the Catholic Church, do you think of it has a liberal Church? If so, could you define what you mean by liberal?
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christofirst
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This will sound corny, but your path is not my path, and I can’t judge you, just wish you well. I’m sometimes mystified as to why I remain faithful in the Church when so many of my loved ones have left. God bless you.
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ThomasMT
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This thread is not about your political views, they have nothing to do with the topic.
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Elf01
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I don’t think it’s just that. There are plenty of Catholics here who share your view and as one who doesn’t I don’t think the Church requires Catholics to vote for Trump.
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Polak
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I’m not telling you to vote for anyone.
Indeed. I do however feel that if his main reason for leaving, or the final straw that caused him to question and then leave the Catholic Church, is because much of the hierarchy of the Church supports white supremacy, then he’s leaving on a false pretence, and that’s sad.
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glencor63
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I prayed about my faith. I asked the Holy Spirit to guide me. Jesus said he was pleased with my fiesty spirit. He can handle debate, dissent, and a well formed argument. He’s God. He doesn’t need protection. I’m not Eastern Orthodox, but I find great wisdom in the East. Nothing is binding on their faithful, except scripture and sacred tradition from the early church councils. The last recognized being the Second Council of Nicaea. I think walking with Jesus with an Eastern understanding of what’s essential avoids many pitfalls I’ve witnessed in the Western church. My problem with the East is cultural. Who knows, perhaps that is where God is leading me. I do know that Eastern Christians never enslaved Africans or colonized and exploited their weaker brothers and sisters among humanity. That reveals a great deal to me about the Western church and its moral formation of the laity. Hmm? I’ll keep searching. Peace!
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Polak
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It sounds like leftist ideology is causing you to leave the Church. That’s a shame. I would say I’m more right leaning than left leaning (although not on every issue) and from that perspective I see stuff going on in the Church that sometimes disturbs me quite a bit, but I’d never allow it to cause me to leave. If that happened, I’d know I was focusing on the wrong thing.
You seem to have been convinced that the West is evil, a mantra the left side of the aisle repeats over and over again. But hey look, if you’re considering joining Eastern Catholicism because for one reason or another you don’t feel comfortable with Rome, that’s better than leaving Catholicism, so I’d say, give it a try.
You seem to have been convinced that the West is evil, a mantra the left side of the aisle repeats over and over again. But hey look, if you’re considering joining Eastern Catholicism because for one reason or another you don’t feel comfortable with Rome, that’s better than leaving Catholicism, so I’d say, give it a try.
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christofirst
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No, I think of the tired but still appropriate metaphor of the “big tent.” I think, in fact I know, that the Church is big enough for both liberals and conservatives, and for all who fall somewhere in between. To use another analogy, I believe the Magisterium and Church doctrines often serve as guardrails to keep us from straying too far off of either side of the narrow path, be it to the left or to the right. Believe it or not, I understand and respect the conservative and traditionalist wing and leaders of the Church, I just often disagree with them, especially when it comes to the intersection of faith and politics.
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glencor63
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I’m not on the Left or the Right. I am a Moderate. I believe very strongly in free will. I reject authoritarianism, autocracy, and absolutism. I am not Liberal or Conservative. I live in the West because my ancestors were forcibly relocated to a Western country, enslaved and subsequently dehumanized and mistreated. I am not a Nationalist. I am a human being first and foremost. I support a sociopolitical and economic system akin to that which exists in Sweden, Norway, New Zealand, Great Britain, Canada, Germany, etc. If I ever have the financial resources, I’ll probably move abroad and become a citizen elsewhere, not because other nations are perfect, but because based on the history of my people in America I don’t have a preference for this country.
*This thread is not about politics. I don’t want to debate the merits of America vs. other nations. It’s about the Catholic Church. Let’s stay on topic.
*This thread is not about politics. I don’t want to debate the merits of America vs. other nations. It’s about the Catholic Church. Let’s stay on topic.
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NormalBeliever
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Scandal and faithlessness are essentially the ecclesial equivalent of suffering. Trouble is to be expected, as the Church is Christ’s body and He Himself suffered on Earth. God always allows evils and suffering for a greater good, and rarely positively causes it Himself (and even when He does cause it it’s more often than not basically taking away protection which leads to suffering).
But just as with all of the personal suffering we all go through in life, we have every reason for hope and confidence through it since God will recompense all the suffering we experience - in the end suffering won’t have the last laugh. Just as God in the end gave Job more than what He allowed him to lose, so too will God in the end recompense us more than what we lost through suffering or sacrifice because He loves and even enjoys us as His children.
After all, one of the reasons He died on the cross is to destroy death and suffering, destroying death by death as the old hymn says. Not so that we should never suffer or experience evil but that we could learn how to deal with it and participate in the defeat of suffering by offering it to God. He too dislikes our suffering and has compassion on us when we suffer, and plans to destroy it in the most beautiful way possible - by bringing a greater good out of it despite itself.
And in the end, we’ll come away with a greater appreciation of both good and bad after having experienced them - knowing the goodness of good and badness of bad makes us know even more how much we are loved. In the end, darkness only ends up serving the glory of light.
But just as with all of the personal suffering we all go through in life, we have every reason for hope and confidence through it since God will recompense all the suffering we experience - in the end suffering won’t have the last laugh. Just as God in the end gave Job more than what He allowed him to lose, so too will God in the end recompense us more than what we lost through suffering or sacrifice because He loves and even enjoys us as His children.
After all, one of the reasons He died on the cross is to destroy death and suffering, destroying death by death as the old hymn says. Not so that we should never suffer or experience evil but that we could learn how to deal with it and participate in the defeat of suffering by offering it to God. He too dislikes our suffering and has compassion on us when we suffer, and plans to destroy it in the most beautiful way possible - by bringing a greater good out of it despite itself.
And in the end, we’ll come away with a greater appreciation of both good and bad after having experienced them - knowing the goodness of good and badness of bad makes us know even more how much we are loved. In the end, darkness only ends up serving the glory of light.
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scousekiwi
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It occurs to me to make three points regarding the ordination of women in the Church of England.
- The ordination of women has by no means been universally accepted. Hundreds of clergy and thousands of laypeople have left the Church of England because they disagree with the ordination of women as priests and, more recently, as bishops. Many more remain within the Church of England while maintaining their opposition to the ordination of women. This brings me to my second point:
- The decision to ordain women is ultimately a matter not of doctrine but of law. One could argue that, implicitly, canon law must reflect the doctrinal position of the Church of England on this matter. Nonetheless, the basic reason why a woman may receive holy orders in the Church of England is because it is permitted by the canon law of the Church of England, which is part of English law. Therefore, it is entirely possible for somebody to be a member of the Church of England and to believe, on doctrinal grounds, that a woman cannot receive, or confer, holy orders. This is why the Church of England has a system of alternative episcopal oversight, which allows people who do not accept the ordination of women to place themselves under the jurisdiction of bishops who have been ordained only by men and who in turn ordain only men.
- Finally, one must remember that the ordination of women in the Church of England and in the Anglican Communion more widely was introduced very gradually. Women were first admitted as deaconesses in the Church of England in 1862. A deaconess was more or less a deacon in all but name: she was admitted to her order by prayer and laying on of hands by a bishop; her duties included reciting the Daily Office, reading the Epistle and Gospel at Holy Communion and distributing Holy Communion, preaching, churching women, baptising, conducting funerals, and publishing the banns of marriage. In 1987, women began to be ordained as actual deacons. Meanwhile, women had already been ordained as both deacons and priests in other parts of the Anglican Communion, beginning with the irregular ordination of Florence Li in Zhaoqing in 1944. Women had been ordained as priests in the United States, Canada, New Zealand, and Hong Kong since the 1970s.
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MNathaniel
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Polak
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I agree, and the Church should never be considered left or right wing. Having said that, I feel there are certain things that embody liberalism, and are contrary to Catholic Church teaching. A woman’s right to choose and gay marriage are essentially part of liberalism. If you do not believe in those things, you’re most likely not to be accepted by most other liberals.
I don’t see the same issue with conservatism. That isn’t to say there aren’t some very dodgy people in the conservative movement, but generally I can’t find any conservative belief that directly conflicts with Catholic Church teaching.
Well most of the countries you name are western and Great Britain also had a big hand in the slave trade. There was also a rather famous guy in Germany who tried to eliminate a lot of people, and to put it lightly, black people were not among those he was looking to spare. Many countries have dark pasts.
Also, most Catholics in those countries are part of the ‘western’ Catholic Church. Are you sure you would be happy there?
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glencor63
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Those countries aren’t perfect, but remember African-Americans didn’t come to America for a rice bowl. We were forced to provide rice for others through enslavement. Leaving America would not be a great loss because being in America isn’t a gain for African descended people. The African experience in America is so different as to boggle the mind. Anyway, again this is about the Catholic Church. I’ve summed up why I’m leaving. I’m comfortable with the decision. I look forward to the next phase of my spiritual journey. I’ll leave the forum to further debate the original topic. Signing off for now. Peace, again!:v:t6:
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Polak
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Exactly. British politician Ann Widdecombe is one of them. She basically said the ordination of women was the final straw and decided to become a Catholic, because she saw Rome as not bending to public pressures. The point is, she probably did not foresee that happening, hence why she was happily a member of the Anglican Church for so many years. I’m sure many of the others who left were too, until certain decisions were made that were just too much for them.
I can only imagine what Widdecombe would think if the Catholic Church she joined in the early 90s, did the same thing the C of E has done. She’d probably lose all hope. She moved to specifically get away from that.
Interesting fact. I didn’t know that. That must cause some tensions.
Right, and back then I doubt anyone expected there to be women priests over one hundred years later, just because there were deaconess. I wouldn’t be surprised if some Catholics look suspiciously at the fairly recent permitting of altar girls. If in some years deaconesses should also be allowed, I’m sure they’d get a whole lot more suspicious.
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Polak
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The same could be said for Great Britain.
And yet to so many have great lives there.
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Polak
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You are repeating the same tired line the Democrats have been drumming into African Americans for years. That’s why so many have had enough and left. Many black people don’t want to keep hearing this narrative of despair, of how they can never do anything with their lives because the system is designed to hold them down etc. I don’t mean to get political but it’s true.
Do you really think going to a place like the UK would magically make your life better? The same complaints are made by black people over there. Systemic racism, no opportunities, being held down by the oppressive white men etc. Honestly you could do much worse than living in the USA as a black person.
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sainteriksrose
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It’s not going to do that because the Holy Spirit is in charge, and those who have signed on know better (or, should know better, anyway. And if not they’re free to leave)…
Of course the Church can acknowledge that these things exist. But okay them? Never.
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Of course the Church can acknowledge that these things exist. But okay them? Never.
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Anesti33
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St. Peter messed up. St. Augustine was a mess. St. John Chrysostom wasn’t all he was cracked up to be. Popes were corrupt. Martin Luther created chaos. It seems we can’t get rid of scandal.
If you put your trust in human beings, they will always let you down. That is why our faith is in the Sacraments of the Church and Jesus Christ who instituted them, because they never fail, they are always there, and they will not let us down.
It is unhealthy to pay much attention to current events and gossip if they will cause you to question your faith. Because faith that is easily questioned or shaken is faith misplaced. Faith in the doctrine of the Church, in her Sacraments, and in the Holy Trinity, this is true faith, and this is the faith that will endure and see us through this life.
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Raxus
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Some men blew it. Others, a vast majority, have done very, very well.
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