Zen Meditation: Theory and Practice

[rossum]

Um, Just to comment on the last statememt of we are nothing at all?

No. We are not nothing at all. But neither are we what we think we are.

A mirage looks like water, but it isn’t water. A mirage isn’t nothing at all because if it were then it wouldn’t look like water. A mirage is not nothing at all but neither is it what it appears to be. A mirage is somewhere between nothing and water. We are somewhere between nothing and what we think we are.

rossum

 

[rinnie]

No. We are not nothing at all. But neither are we what we think we are.

A mirage looks like water, but it isn’t water. A mirage isn’t nothing at all because if it were then it wouldn’t look like water. A mirage is not nothing at all but neither is it what it appears to be. A mirage is somewhere between nothing and water. We are somewhere between nothing and what we think we are.

rossum

Not according to the Christian faith. With God and from his free gift of Grace we are his handiwork created in Christ Jesus for the good works God has prepared for us in advance that we should live in them. Eph. 2:10

Being handiwork in Chirst is not nothing at all. And if we are what we were called to be we are Gods Children.

IT is through him we have access in One Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners but you are fellow citizens with the Holy Ones and members of the Household of God. That is alot more then a mirage thats for sure.

 

[rossum]

Not according to the Christian faith. With God and from his free gift of Grace we are his handiwork created in Christ Jesus for the good works God has prepared for us in advance that we should live in them. Eph. 2:10

Being handiwork in Chirst is not nothing at all. And if we are what we were called to be we are Gods Children.

IT is through him we have access in One Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners but you are fellow citizens with the Holy Ones and members of the Household of God. That is alot more then a mirage thats for sure.

We agree that we are not nothing. As I understand Christianity, all men are fallen. Fallen men are capable of error, and so may make an error about what they think they are. I cannot see anything unchristian about pointing out that fallen men may be in error.

Meditation is a way to help reduce errors.

rossum

 

[Mary_Jessica]

I was hoping that this forum would not be an attempt to prove one thing is right and the other is wrong. I am certainly not here to convert anyone or convince them I am right. I think that in our materialistic society we Christians can learn from some Bhuddist philosophy. The knowlege is definately there for us but sometimes it is harder to translate for me as far as proper being goes. I am very thankful for that contribution and have found it has made my faith much stronger. I think it is a wondeful way to find a sense of unity between others and appreciate the goodness that can be found within all cultures. The common thread most religions and philosophies ( I am not sure Bhuddisim is considerd a religion) is to promote a more peaceful and harmonious way of living. We can all appreciate and celebrate that.

 

[rinnie]

We agree that we are not nothing. As I understand Christianity, all men are fallen. Fallen men are capable of error, and so may make an error about what they think they are. I cannot see anything unchristian about pointing out that fallen men may be in error.

Meditation is a way to help reduce errors.

rossum

I agree but not without the presence of God. We do not disagree that we sin and we call fall from the Grace of GOd. But his grace is what makes it possible to be re-united with him.

We have no problem with meditation. But CHrist must be the center of that meditation that’s all. And aint no fixing error’s without Gods Grace.

 

[rinnie]

I was hoping that this forum would not be an attempt to prove one thing is right and the other is wrong. I am certainly not here to convert anyone or convince them I am right. I think that in our materialistic society we Christians can learn from some Bhuddist philosophy. The knowlege is definately there for us but sometimes it is harder to translate for me as far as proper being goes. I am very thankful for that contribution and have found it has made my faith much stronger. I think it is a wondeful way to find a sense of unity between others and appreciate the goodness that can be found within all cultures. The common thread most religions and philosophies ( I am not sure Bhuddisim is considerd a religion) is to promote a more peaceful and harmonious way of living. We can all appreciate and celebrate that.

The Pope said No:shrug: You can’t mix it in with the teaching’s of the Church. Thats all I am saying.

 

[Sufjon]

The Pope said No:shrug: You can’t mix it in with the teaching’s of the Church. Thats all I am saying.

All religions probably meditate in some form or another, although they may not be aware of it. Saying the rosary is a form of meditation in a very proper sense. Anything you do can be a form of meditation as long as you are fully present in doing that which you are doing. That includes something as mundane as doing the dishes. The grander forms would be things like you saying your rosary, Rossum being still and centered, me doing raja or bhakti, ect.

You profess to believe in Jesus. I believe you. This being the case, what then should you fear of anything?

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[SedesDomi]

The Pope said No:shrug: You can’t mix it in with the teaching’s of the Church. Thats all I am saying.

Mixing non-Christian ideas with Christian ideas is a time-honored practice. Thomas Aquinas took the techniques of pagan Greek logic and mixed them with Christian ideals, and Pope Leo XIII praised Aquinas, as well as other Church Fathers who did likewise, for learning from the pagans:

“But it is most fitting to turn these truths, which have been discovered by the pagan sages even, to the use and purposes of revealed doctrine, in order to show that both human wisdom and the very testimony of our adversaries serve to support the Christian faith-a method which is not of recent introduction, but of established use, and has often been adopted by the holy Fathers of the Church. What is more, those venerable men, the witnesses and guardians of religious traditions, recognize a certain form and figure of this in the action of the Hebrews, who, when about to depart out of Egypt, were commanded to take with them the gold and silver vessels and precious robes of the Egyptians, that by a change of use the things might be dedicated to the service of the true God which had formerly been the instruments of ignoble and superstitious rites…But if natural reason first sowed this rich field of doctrine before it was rendered fruitful by the power of Christ, it must assuredly become more prolific after the grace of the Saviour has renewed and added to the native faculties of the human mind. And who does not see that a plain and easy road is opened up to faith by such a method of philosophic study?”

 

[Cecilianus]

Mixing non-Christian ideas with Christian ideas is a time-honored practice. Thomas Aquinas took the techniques of pagan Greek logic and mixed them with Christian ideals, and Pope Leo XIII praised Aquinas, as well as other Church Fathers who did likewise, for learning from the pagans:

“But it is most fitting to turn these truths, which have been discovered by the pagan sages even, to the use and purposes of revealed doctrine, in order to show that both human wisdom and the very testimony of our adversaries serve to support the Christian faith-a method which is not of recent introduction, but of established use, and has often been adopted by the holy Fathers of the Church. What is more, those venerable men, the witnesses and guardians of religious traditions, recognize a certain form and figure of this in the action of the Hebrews, who, when about to depart out of Egypt, were commanded to take with them the gold and silver vessels and precious robes of the Egyptians, that by a change of use the things might be dedicated to the service of the true God which had formerly been the instruments of ignoble and superstitious rites…But if natural reason first sowed this rich field of doctrine before it was rendered fruitful by the power of Christ, it must assuredly become more prolific after the grace of the Saviour has renewed and added to the native faculties of the human mind. And who does not see that a plain and easy road is opened up to faith by such a method of philosophic study?”

And it’s not just purely secular “philosophy” or logic/reason that the Church has adopted and made Her own. Neoplatonism was once a full religion rival to Christianity, with its own rites and ceremonies (theurgy). It gave Christianity a run for its money back then, as Judaism and Gnosticism and Arianism also did. Yet the Neoplatonic philosophy has been completely subsumed within and united to Christianity, by thinkers like Eriugena, St. Boethius, and St. Thomas Aquinas (who quotes Neo-Platonists far more often than Aristotelians).

Same thing should be done with Hinduism. We think of it now as a “different religion” - but there is no reason for the Church to treat it any differently than Neoplatonism. Truth is truth, and the Church has always accepted truth wherever it may be found, even among the spoliae Aegyptorum to borrow a phrase that Henri de Lubac liked to remind us of. Christianity is not one religion among others; it is simply truth, and the word “religion” would not be used univocally in this case. If you possess the truth and are in the state of grace, then you are a Christian, regardless of whatever term you happen to may use to describe yourself.

And this is a pretty Patristic attitude towards “other religions”. They weren’t too familiar with Oriental thought, but the few times they mentioned it they were generally pretty positive. St. Clement of Alexandria says in Book 1 of the Stromateis that the Buddha was worshiped as a god on account of his great sanctity. I may think that the practice of Zen falls far short of the personal communion with God practiced in Christian prayer - but Zen never claimed to be anything more than it is, so I might as well criticize football for not uniting me to God as closely as the Mass does. The Liturgy is a means towards theosis; Zen is a means for achieving satori. I suspect that most philosophers would do much better phenomenology if they practiced Zen.

 

[rinnie]

All religions probably meditate in some form or another, although they may not be aware of it. Saying the rosary is a form of meditation in a very proper sense. Anything you do can be a form of meditation as long as you are fully present in doing that which you are doing. That includes something as mundane as doing the dishes. The grander forms would be things like you saying your rosary, Rossum being still and centered, me doing raja or bhakti, ect.

You profess to believe in Jesus. I believe you. This being the case, what then should you fear of anything?

Your friend,
Sufjon

Hi Dear, here is why we have fear. To believe in Jesus is not enough. The devil believes in Jesus also do you not agree?

We are to fear God and here is why. God knows everything we do. If we do evil and hurt people and do not follow the commands of God and turn away from him and live in sin then God will turn away from us also.

Just like the devil he believes in Jesus but he also refuses to live for Jesus and in Jesus and accept his Grace which is given to us by his death on the Cross.

The devil chooses by his own free will which is also a grace from God to do evil and sin and not repent and not change his ways.

Christ said you are either with me or against me. He left us the Sacraments to be released from our sin when we do fall from his grace and we can become one with him again.

But we have to do our part to. We have to repent, be sorry, and quit the sin. If we don’t we will not have eternal life in Christ. Because nothing unclean shall enter heaven. And if you are full of sin you are unclean.

I agree that you can meditate on Christ and pray the Rosary. I do not disagree with this. But Zen states that you empy your mind of all thoughts. That is where the problem comes in and Zen cannot mix with Christian prayer.

Simply because when we meditate Christ must be at the Center of that Meditation. Do you see what I am saying. There can be no empty thoughts. Not if Christ is at the center of your Meditation.

The Church does not want us to open up our minds to anything but God. God should be at the center at all times. Because all good things come from God.

But people who do not fear God do not believe in him. God punishes the wicked. If you love him and do his will you have nothing to fear. But if you sin and hurt others and do not turn away from your sin God will turn away from you. We count on God for everything single good thing in our lives. Without God there is no goodness that exists. Only evil.

And if you turn to evil when you die you will get evil. God will not accept you if you are evil. That is what we fear. God not accepting us. That is why we must us the good grace he has given us to do good. Because we will receive our reward not in this world but in the next. And our reward is eternal life with him, and meeting him face to face and being with him in perfect love and happiness forever.

But God gives us free choice to accept him or reject him.

 

[rinnie]

There is a site catholicpathways.com it will show you that zen meditation cannot be mixed with Christian prayer.

Many People who practice Zen believe that they are advancing in their Spiritual life.

We are told by the word of God that all we need to advance in our Spiritual Life is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is enough to guide us in our Christian Prayer.

When we pray in silence we either look upon the cross of Christ and keep our minds on that, or we close our eyes and feel the power of the Holy Spirit feeling our hearts. There is nothing lacking in Christian Prayer.

As this article will show you when people feel the need to turn to alternative ways they are saying that there is something lacking. There is nothing lacking. Christ did it all, gave his all, and anything they we need is given to us in the Pilar of the Truth. The Catholic Church. You need not look to alternative places you look right there in your own Church.

There is nothing lacking in the Church. It is all there. You wll not find this practice taught in the CC. IF it was needed Christ would have told us. Christian prayer is enough.

 

[rinnie]

All religions probably meditate in some form or another, although they may not be aware of it. Saying the rosary is a form of meditation in a very proper sense. Anything you do can be a form of meditation as long as you are fully present in doing that which you are doing. That includes something as mundane as doing the dishes. The grander forms would be things like you saying your rosary, Rossum being still and centered, me doing raja or bhakti, ect.

You profess to believe in Jesus. I believe you. This being the case, what then should you fear of anything?

Your friend,
Sufjon

By the way Sufjon you are correct though. Christian prayer is a type of meditation, but like I said it is different from the meditation of Zen.

Christian prayer if you wnat to really center it is called Lectio Divina.

Here is the difference.There are 4 steps.

1. Read a passage and seek the word of God.
2. meditate on the passage and apply it to our own situation or needs
3. Pray in response to the word of God.
4. Then just listen to what God may wish to impart.

Zen is completly different. In Zen the big difference is the absence or unimportance of a Deity.

See in Christian prayer God is the total and complete purpose of Christian prayer. For a Christian to pray and meditate w/o God would be totally useless. That is the difference.

That is why we can’t corporate Zen with prayer.

 

[Mary_Jessica]

If I have a Hindu friend for example who gave me pointers on how to better center myself during meditation I would not be practing Hindu. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that and I would thank them for the help. Fear in and of itself can be one of the most corrupting forces on the earth.

 

[Sufjon]

If I have a Hindu friend for example who gave me pointers on how to better center myself during meditation I would not be practing Hindu. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that and I would thank them for the help. Fear in and of itself can be one of the most corrupting forces on the earth.

Hi Mary Jessica: I very much agree with you. Meditation is in my opinion the best way to connect with God, however it is you see Him. Over time, meditation helps one to see the unity in all things, and in seeing the unity in things, we see God in all things and all creatures. While I might see myself as a Hindu and you as a Catholic, we are in fact only a part of God’s creation, a part of Him and a part of each other, each taking our own path to God. We are like a billion bowls of water in the noonday sun. They appear to be a billion suns, but in fact they are all reflections and manifestations of the One. Clearly visible as many, in truth only One.

This considered, what you’ve said about fear is most wise. Knowing what we are, what have we to fear?

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[rinnie]

Hi Mary Jessica: I very much agree with you. Meditation is in my opinion the best way to connect with God, however it is you see Him. Over time, meditation helps one to see the unity in all things, and in seeing the unity in things, we see God in all things and all creatures. While I might see myself as a Hindu and you as a Catholic, we are in fact only a part of God’s creation, a part of Him and a part of each other, each taking our own path to God. We are like a billion bowls of water in the noonday sun. They appear to be a billion suns, but in fact they are all reflections and manifestations of the One. Clearly visible as many, in truth only One.

This considered, what you’ve said about fear is most wise. Knowing what we are, what have we to fear?

Your friend
Sufjon

Hi Sufjon, We as Catholic’s never take it upon ourself to judge ourself. Do you understand what I am saying.

God is who judges us, So for us to say we know who we are is like saying we are equal to God. Only God will reveal to us at the end of our life what we are and what our fate is.

St Paul said this the best. St Paul as you know turned away from his sin and repented and became a Apostle of God. He spent the rest of his life working for God and God only. But here is his take on Salvation.

Here is one scripture. 2 Cor:15 And his heart goes out to you all the more as he remembers the obedience of all of you, when you received him with fear and trembling.

That is how we are told to work our our Salvation. We do not have the mind of God nor ever will. So we pray that he will accept us, but he is the final judge.

Jesus tells us many will say at the end did I not speak in your name, and He will said I do not know you. Many people do things for themself no God and God knows who they are.

Just thought I would throw that in Have a good week-end!

 

[Sufjon]

Hi Sufjon, We as Catholic’s never take it upon ourself to judge ourself. Do you understand what I am saying.

God is who judges us, So for us to say we know who we are is like saying we are equal to God. Only God will reveal to us at the end of our life what we are and what our fate is.

St Paul said this the best. St Paul as you know turned away from his sin and repented and became a Apostle of God. He spent the rest of his life working for God and God only. But here is his take on Salvation.

Here is one scripture. 2 Cor:15 And his heart goes out to you all the more as he remembers the obedience of all of you, when you received him with fear and trembling.

That is how we are told to work our our Salvation. We do not have the mind of God nor ever will. So we pray that he will accept us, but he is the final judge.

Jesus tells us many will say at the end did I not speak in your name, and He will said I do not know you. Many people do things for themself no God and God knows who they are.

Just thought I would throw that in Have a good week-end!

 

[Cecilianus]

By the way Sufjon you are correct though. Christian prayer is a type of meditation, but like I said it is different from the meditation of Zen.

Christian prayer if you wnat to really center it is called Lectio Divina.

Here is the difference.There are 4 steps.

1. Read a passage and seek the word of God.
2. meditate on the passage and apply it to our own situation or needs
3. Pray in response to the word of God.
4. Then just listen to what God may wish to impart.

Zen is completly different. In Zen the big difference is the absence or unimportance of a Deity.

See in Christian prayer God is the total and complete purpose of Christian prayer. For a Christian to pray and meditate w/o God would be totally useless. That is the difference.

That is why we can’t corporate Zen with prayer.

Lectio divina - a Latin word for reading the Bible - is not the only form of Christian “meditation”, though. Other Roman Catholic forms of meditation include the Rosary (which is not lectio divine per se) and methods such as those of St. Francis de Sales. In Greek Catholicism, we do empty our minds of all that comes from us - of all that is human finite - so that our imagination does not produce a false image of God that gets in the way of our prayer. The early Egyptian Desert Fathers caution strongly against the use of imagination in prayer, regarding it simply as a distraction. Zen therefore does not seem to me completely incompatible with Christian prayer - it just doesn’t happen to be prayer itself. Sitting still and clearing your mind of distractions isn’t itself prayer, but it could hardly hurt.

 

[Mary_Jessica]

I find this all so confusing. What is the big deal. We are influenced by everything we encounter. In order to be a good Catholic some people make it seem as if we should lock ourselves in a box with the bible. I went to Catholic school and we learned about other religions I was never told " beware of the ravenous forces trying to destroy the faith" that mindset makes for scared puppets not people of God.

 

[Sufjon]

I find this all so confusing. What is the big deal. We are influenced by everything we encounter. In order to be a good Catholic some people make it seem as if we should lock ourselves in a box with the bible. I went to Catholic school and we learned about other religions I was never told " beware of the ravenous forces trying to destroy the faith" that mindset makes for scared puppets not people of God.

 

[rinnie]

Lectio divina - a Latin word for reading the Bible - is not the only form of Christian “meditation”, though. Other Roman Catholic forms of meditation include the Rosary (which is not lectio divine per se) and methods such as those of St. Francis de Sales. In Greek Catholicism, we do empty our minds of all that comes from us - of all that is human finite - so that our imagination does not produce a false image of God that gets in the way of our prayer. The early Egyptian Desert Fathers caution strongly against the use of imagination in prayer, regarding it simply as a distraction. Zen therefore does not seem to me completely incompatible with Christian prayer - it just doesn’t happen to be prayer itself. Sitting still and clearing your mind of distractions isn’t itself prayer, but it could hardly hurt. /QUOTE

How do you feel that Zen is not incompatible with Christian prayer? In Zen there is no God you are praying to. In Zen there is no higher source you are reaching out to. In Zen you are the higher power, in Zen this all comes from within yourself. With a Christian all power comes from God.

With L.D. and ALL forms of Christian Prayer God is the center of it. Like L.D. we concentrate on a scripture we pray on it and then we sit and see what throughts come into our mind after meditatating on that prayer. How can that be comepared in the least with Zen where there are no thoughts of anything??