25 unarmed Whites and only 14 unarmed Blacks were fatally shot by police in 2019. Do the data suggest that police deserve an apology from those who vi

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LeafByNiggle said:
The defunding efforts are not the invention of the media. The media is just reporting what people say.
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True, they are reporting what a fraction of people say. But do you hear the people who want to fund more the police? At least I do not. If you have, I have not. I do not mean, they mentioned it in passing. I mean they spend 24 hours giving us the news, and I can throw in what? Maybe 23 hours and 50 minutes of defunding? Yes I made up the number. What I am trying to say with that is this. The media pushes the narrative. And the narrative has defunded police. If media was more trustworthy and reliable, I believe we could have come with a whole lot of better solutions.
 
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LeafByNiggle said:
Who are they? How many are there?
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Wish I knew a total for you. There are polls out there that say people want same or more police. I believe it was posted here as well. AS for the people I know? I have no one in my small world that wants to defund police, nor want less of them. I only know people who want to defund police, in this here forum.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
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1cthlctrth:
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LeafByNiggle:
I wonder if Sen. Hawley’s bill would provide funds to police departments who transition some of their officers into social workers?
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If a woman is being violently raped or attacked, I don’t think calling a social worker is the answer.
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There will still be 90% of the police force ready to deal with that. But let’s have 10% of the police budget go to deescalation training and to managing the mentally ill. That takes social work skills, not gunslinger skills.
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Well let’s see, a man on drugs who is trying to pass obvious counterfeit bills? Who you gonna call? Yeah, a social worker.
A domestic dispute or whatever the reason was for the Jacob Blake incident. He’s a felon with a record of resisting arrest and injuring a police officer, among other things. Who you gonna call? Yeah, a social worker…
 
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Nope, you first need to get the total number of crimes.

The break down who committed those crimes by race

Then you have to break down which of these when caught created a situation in which an officer shot the offender

Then how many of these offenders died
 
27lw said:
Well let’s see, a man on drugs who is trying to pass obvious counterfeit bills? Who you gonna call? Yeah, a social worker.
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Suspected counterfeit bills. The police had no proof at that point.
A domestic dispute or whatever the reason was for the Jacob Blake incident. He’s a felon with a record of resisting arrest and injuring a police officer, among other things. Who you gonna call? Yeah, a social worker…
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A police officer with special social work training.

When the brother of Daniel Prude called the Rochester Police Department to report that his brother was having a mental health episode, who you gonna send? A social worker who knows how to talk to the mentally ill and deescalate the situation? Or the usual police officers who arrived and promptly placed a bag over his head because he might have had covid-19 and handcuffed him naked in the middle of the street. When the EMT’s arrived several minutes later and found him not breathing, then started chest compressions, but he arrived brain dead at the hospital and died a week later from complications of asphyxia in the setting of physical restraint, according to the medical examiner.

Yeah, a social worker or a police officer trained in social work would have treated him like a patient rather than like a criminal. There are many more cases like this of mentally ill people being mishandled by untrained police. You can still use 90% of the police funds to fund Elliot Ness wanabes. But set aside at least 10% for officers who know how to treat the mentally ill as human beings.
 
27lw said:
Why did the hospital send Daniel away in the first place?
He was in the mental health crisis place already and they released him!
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Irrelevant to the qualifications (or lack of qualifications) of the police officers that responded to the call for help. Why are you defending these incompetent officers? Is there any wonder that there are protests in Rochester?
 
Where did I defend the officers, Leaf?
You are arguing for social workers and mental health workers but the city of Rochester has some already, and Daniel Prude was in their hands, and they sent him away! So what the hell happened?
I work in an urban public library. Cops are called 3-4 times per week for people who are on drugs, fighting, harassing, disturbing the peace, threatening library security, carrying weapons, you name it. A lot of these people are also mentally ill, I’m sure. But they are behaving in such a way, that the cops end up getting involved.
 
Are you a police officer, Leaf? Do you know what they face every day?
Why don’t you go and do the police officer’s job for a year, or ten years, and show everyone how it’s done.
 
Okay. So how does this show they are not part of the fringe? 13 cities reducing budgets to some degree out of how many? How much is the reduction? Is any or all of it due to the yammering by the fringe, or is it standard adjustments of resources based on actual requirements? You are aware that governments increase or reduce budgets for individual programs all the time under normal circumstances, right?
 
Hodos said:
Single points of anecdotal evidence don’t provide any information on statistical datapoints like “averages” or “medians.”
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“The talk” is not single points of anecdotal evidence. Except in the sense that the widespread belief that it is necessary is made one family at a time, but it seems that a large percentage or possibly even a majority of affected families do believe that it is necessary.

You seem to be hung up on various statistics “proving” that there is no systemic racism. Kind of reminds me of prooftexting in other contexts, but that is a different conversation. I am speaking of actual experiences of actual people who are directly affected by it much more than I have been, and the effect it has had on their day-to-day lives. I am not saying that police are inherently racist, nor do I claim that every incident of death of a person of color in the process of arrest or in custody is automatically driven by race. But both statistics and personal experiences of real people support the fact that people of color tend to be much more wary of police and their motives than whites in this country and that, to me, is a sad commentary on how police have historically treated minorities and shows the lingering effects of previous institutional and even legislated racism. We have to do better. No child (or adult for that matter) in trouble should ever need to feel afraid of approaching a police officer for help.
 
whatistrue said:
“The talk” is not single points of anecdotal evidence. Except in the sense that the widespread belief that it is necessary is made one family at a time, but it seems that a large percentage or possibly even a majority of affected families do believe that it is necessary.
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Again, I demonstrated to you that this is not specific to black families. My father gave me the talk when I was in high school. I have done the same with my children. This is by definition anecdotal evidence because it is completely unrelated to the issue being looked at. Perception does not necessarily equal reality, and you are also ignoring data-points from outside the black community. And it doesn’t show crime statistics, or statistics of police shootings which reflect the actual reality on the ground. Those who have done so, to include a black Harvard economics professor by the way, have found that race is not the determinative factor for someone being involved in a police shooting. Suspect behavior demonstrated a much stronger correlation and was much more predictive in determining whether the subject was involved in a police shooting. In fact, he demonstrated that when controlling for suspect behavior, blacks were at lower risk of being shot by police officers.
 
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You continue to try to deflect and turn the discussion to your points using the same techniques of narrow interpretation and out of context or even irrelevant references that seems to be your standard. Fine, discuss your points all you want since you don’t want to discuss what I actually said. I am out. Muting thread.
 
whatistrue said:
You continue to try to deflect and turn the discussion to your points using the same techniques of narrow interpretation and out of context or even irrelevant references that seems to be your standard.
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I by deflect, you mean actually look at the data to determine what the facts are, then yes, I am deflecting. My default when someone claims racism is to look at the actual evidence involved in a specific case to determine if an incident was actually motivated by race. The vast majority of the time, the evidence does not support the charge of racism. If you are claiming systemic racism, then yes, I am going to look at the data to determine if there is actually evidence in the aggregate of a systemic nature of racial motivation. And again, the data does not support your conclusion.
 
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27lw said:
Where did I defend the officers, Leaf?
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In the very next post.
27lw said:
Cops are called 3-4 times per week for people who are on drugs, fighting, harassing, disturbing the peace, threatening library security, carrying weapons, you name it. A lot of these people are also mentally ill, I’m sure. But they are behaving in such a way, that the cops end up getting involved.
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Danial Prude was not doing those things.
 
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Another egregious example of the potential dangers that could result from the leftist media’s false narrative about the police:


Some protesters are practicing “pure unadulterated savagery,” former NYPD officer and Secret Service agent Dan Bongino told “Fox & Friends Weekend” on Sunday reacting to the shooting of two Los Angeles County sheriff’s deputies and the protests that followed at the hospital where they were being treated.

The deputies were shot in their patrol car around 7 p.m. Saturday by a suspect who “opened fire without warning or provocation,” authorities said.

 
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LeafByNiggle said:
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1cthlctrth:
If you respect the police and do what you’re told, things will go smoothly if you are innocent.
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Unless you are black. Then you can never be sure.
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Hodos said:
a black Harvard economics professor by the way, have found that race is not the determinative factor for someone being involved in a police shooting.
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There is no racial bias when officers fire on suspects, according to a study by Prof. Roland Fryer – black suspects are actually less likely to be shot than other suspects.

Fifteen years of shootings (2000-2015) revealed these results:
In officer-involved shootings in these cities, officers were more likely to fire their weapons without having first been attacked when the suspects were white. Black and white civilians involved in police shootings were equally likely to have been carrying a weapon. Both of these results undercut the idea that the police wield lethal force with racial bias.

In a variety of models that controlled for different factors and used different definitions of tense situations, Mr. Fryer found that blacks were either less likely to be shot or there was no difference between blacks and whites.

The anti-cop narrative deflects attention away from solving the real criminal-justice problem, which is high rates of black-on-black victimization. Blacks die of homicide at eight times the rate of non-Hispanic whites, overwhelmingly killed not by cops, not by whites, but by other blacks.

Nobody has even come close to proving that “systemic racism” exists to the level of justifying the riots, looting, destruction, and slander against the police. Police are family men, youth coaches, churchgoers, and your neighbor. They deserve fair treatment. Not this straight-faced wimpy media nonsense about “protests against systemic racism.” The obsessively misleading media is what causes some African-Americans to distrust the police.
 
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1cthlctrth said:
Nobody has even come close to proving that “systemic racism” exists to the level of justifying the riots, looting, destruction…
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No one here ever said racism justifies riots. But systemic racism does exist and is a real problem that needs to be addressed. At least that’s what our Catholic bishops believe:
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Systemic Racism? Make Them Prove It. - Andrew McCarthy World News
I am just so surprised that in a Catholic forum like this, a former judge and columnist for the National Review gets more attention on the subject of racism than the bishops in the United States:
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LeafByNiggle said:
No one here ever said racism justifies riots. But systemic racism does exist and is a real problem that needs to be addressed. At least that’s what our Catholic bishops believe:
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If it does, then point to the law or policy which explicitly favors one race over another, irrespective of behaviors. Claiming this undefinable systemic racism is useless. Identifying the actual law or policy can lead to revision of the law or policy so that the alleged racism is eliminated. If you actually care about racism, then specificity is a requirement for change.
 
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