Archbishop Warns Obama: You’ll Cause 'Conflict Between Church and State of Enormous Proportions’

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How can the act of procreation, or even the instinct driving it, be evil?

The sin we are all guilty of is our sore lack of God’s knowledge, due to our dis-obedience of His instructions in Eden, that led directly to our expulsion and subsequent millenias of sin, and mortal returning to the dust from which we were formed, by God.

Our understanding of God’s purposes and reasons are lacking at best. Which is why divine beings like Christ, whose return promises to clarify these Godly matters for us, are also far superiorly fit and worthy to undertake the grave task of judging and punishing sinners, whether knowing of their sin, or otherwise.

I trust in a divine God, not the words, actions or writings of flawed men assuming they know His will.
Homesexual acts, masturbation, etc, are considered “disordered” precisely because they are NOT procreative acts.

Is sin evil?

So are homosexual acts sinful or not?

You create a huge logical fallacy with your last statement. What is your trust “in a divine God” based on? His word in Scripture?

🤷
 
Homesexual acts, masturbation, etc, are considered “disordered” precisely because they are NOT procreative acts.

Is sin evil?

So are homosexual acts sinful or not?

You create a huge logical fallacy with your last statement. What is your trust “in a divine God” based on? His word in Scripture?

🤷
The fact that either a contained masturbatory, or homosexual act, being consumated, can then be used to create life when joined with a female egg, or eggs in the proper sequence, whether naturally or in a scientific clinic, quite effectively shades any black or white definitive answer into a more veiled modern shade of grayish brown, scientifically speaking.

God may indeed jive with our future, far more effectively than He has our past.

jomoco
 
Good afternoon, all,

I’d like to bring up two things. First is this article indicating the governments punishment of the Holy Roman Catholic Church for standing by her values:

cnsnews.com/news/article/catholic-bishops-lose-25-million-hhs-grant-help-human-trafficking-victims-apparently

I’d like to see a discussion of this article among us bring this thread back to the OP. The gist of the article is that the Department of HHS is denying a $2.5 million grant to the Church. The Church uses the grant to help victims of sex-trafficking.

The second thing is I would like to address the thought, “I can’t help doing this because I’m born this way”.

OK, the desire to procreate does not occur in individuals until puberty. So, we aren’t born with sexual desires.
However, we are born with a deep seated desire to survive, to live, psychologically described as the “Fight/flight” reflex.

There are times when this primeval reflex has prompted me to rearrange some man’s nose. It’s a very powerful urge. However, my Christian self-restraint kept me from doing that, and the truth and love of God in my heart led me in peacefully resolving the issue.

On the other hand, the “Fight/flight” reflex strongly urges individuals to run away from over powering danger. Nevertheless, the military, law enforcement and fire fighters are trained to over come their “Fight/flight” reflex and walk into or stand fast and face danger. A battalion of enemy soldiers dug in on a hill, shooting at your battalion with rifles, machine guns and mortar rounds present an overpowering enemy. But soldiers were trained to walk up that hill in a spread out formation (so that not as many of them would be killed as if they were all bunched together) and riot the enemy from that hill; I know, that’s what we were trained to do at Camp Pendleton when I was a young Marine. To have given in to the “flight” part of that powerful reflex and fled would have been an intolerable act of cowardice.
As well, police officers are trained to take cover and shoot back, instead of running away, when a criminal is shooting at them. And then, of all things, firefighters are trained to take a fire hose and walk into a burning building, facing and overcoming mankind’s most primal fear, that of fire.

Now, I would like to point out, that since people can overcome the powerful primal “Fight/flight” reflex, then there is no excuse for not overcoming the pubescent and later sexual drive with self restraint.
Healing is not the issue, when it comes to any sexual behavior. Self control is the issue for hetero, bi, homo or auto sexual behavior. It can be done.
Those people who don’t want to control themselves and instead live celibate lives, have no excuse for their lack of self control. For any sexuality, it is solely a matter of choice: choose self restraint or choose to surrender to our carnal nature (whatever flavor of carnality that may be).

Even as a young man, my fear of veneral disease (Fight/flight) kept me celibate and often kept me chaste. I was engaged to two different virgin young women. Each one was still virgin when our engagement ended. It was not fear that prompted that in me, but respect for my parents’ teachings, God’s teachings and for the young women themselves.

So, any sexuality can be overcome. I’m not going to get started on that. There was no talk of sexuality in America when I was raised, and it was a much better America for that.

In conlusion, since love of God, and since God’s spirit of Truth, since respect and since training can help us live peaceful lives, our “Fight/flight” reflex notwithstanding, no other powerful urge has any excuse to lead us astray, including any sexuality.

God loves all of you, lurkers, too,
Don.
 
I wonder what primal urge led Jesus to overturn the moneychangers’ tables and flog them from the temple’s premises?

What primal urge led Abraham to claim his wife Sarah as his sister?

jomoco
 
Hi, Scipio337

Come to think of … that is just what He told the woman caught in adultery…(John 7:53-58)

And, here we have the a more natural act (man and woman) that is still debased (prostitution). God has a definite plan for human sexuality - and those who act like such a plan does not exist are simply deluding themselves.

God bless
Tell them “You’re not to blame for acting on your 'powerful primal gift of God” instincts", or

Forgive them, and tell them to “go, and sin no more”.

I would probably vote the latter.
 
God has a definite plan for human sexuality - and those who act like such a plan does not exist are simply deluding themselves.

God bless
Do you claim full knowledge of that plan in its entirety Tqualey?

Are there no mysteries of God yet to be revealed?

jomoco
 
Do you deny that all of us are sinners in sore need of Christ’s forgiveness and mercy?

jomoco
I deny that we cannot resist temptation to evil.
You have passed judgement upon people that they are incapable of resisting temptation.
 
I wonder what primal urge led Jesus to overturn the moneychangers’ tables and flog them from the temple’s premises?

What primal urge led Abraham to claim his wife Sarah as his sister?

jomoco
Is it your contention that Jesus sinned? That he was incapable of resisting temptation?
 
Hi, Qui Est Ce,

Here lies the fundamental contradiction:

1.) We are all sinners (theory) but I am acting out of instinct (virtue) so my acts are praiseworthy

2.) Christ healed sinners but did not remove any instinctual drives, so my acts are still praiseworthy

3.) Objective morality is really the subjective reasoning and legislation of others, but since I am instinctual, such restrictions do not apply to me.

The unifying theory here is simply hedonism - everything else is sacrificed to the disordered pleasure of the moment - and so as not to feel guilty about this, let’s change the way society views perversion.

This is why it is so important to read the USCCB statement to Faithful Citizens, and clearly identify that we can not vote for those who actively support intrisic evil.

God bless
When I ask for forgiveness, I do it with the intention to not sin again. I acknowledge my sin before the Lord.

I don’t go around telling everybody that I’m just a powerless person, I can’t help it, I’m too weak. IOW, I don’t flaunt my sins.
 
I deny that we cannot resist temptation to evil.
You have passed judgement upon people that they are incapable of resisting temptation.
Then why were we kicked out of Eden by no less than God Himself my friend?

jomoco
 
Because we yielded to a temptation he had commanded us to resist.
Kinda the same rationale He also used for snuffing Soddom and Gamorrah?

Do you note a repeating theme here driven by sinful conduct?

jomoco
 
Good afternoon, all,

I’d like to bring up two things. First is this article indicating the governments punishment of the Holy Roman Catholic Church for standing by her values:

cnsnews.com/news/article/catholic-bishops-lose-25-million-hhs-grant-help-human-trafficking-victims-apparently

I’d like to see a discussion of this article among us bring this thread back to the OP. The gist of the article is that the Department of HHS is denying a $2.5 million grant to the Church. The Church uses the grant to help victims of sex-trafficking.
From the Bishop’s letter:
… a national conflict between Church and State of enormous proportions and to the detriment of both institutions.
From the article you’ve linked to Don:
“The contract pointed out that ‘preference’ would be given to those who offer ‘the full-range of legally permissible gynecological and obstetric care,’ which is a codeword for artificial contraception, sterilization and abortion,” Walsh told CNSNews.com.
*
*
*
“HHS’s primary focus in serving victims of human trafficking is to keep them as healthy and supported as possible,” the statement said. “These are individuals who have endured traumatic experiences in many cases and who face uniquely complex challenges. Our focus is always on the needs of victims, and ensuring that they have access to high-quality comprehensive case management services.”
So clearly, with this anti-life and anti-family agenda, both the Church and the state suffers.
The Church receives less money for charitable works and the state looses a valuable institution to carry out those works.
WHAT A MESS!:mad:
 
Kinda the same rationale He also used for snuffing Soddom and Gamorrah?

Do you note a repeating theme here driven by sinful conduct?

jomoco
I note a recurring theme of sinful behavior.
People have a free will, and they can freely choose to sin or not to sin.
 
I note a recurring theme of sinful behavior.
People have a free will, and they can freely choose to sin or not to sin.
Yeah,well that sinful, ignorant, prideful, stiff necked people now constitutes today’s 21st century planet earth in it’s teaming entirety.

The question before God/Christ again is, do I snuff them because of their sin?

Or does He heal us and lead us to Eden/Heaven as He promised?

Are we to be forgiven, denounced, or snuffed?

What’s your counsel my fellow brothers and sisters in sin?

jomoco
 
Hi, Jomoco,

Still playing games, eh? 😉 Let’s get down to business…
Do you claim full knowledge of that plan in its entirety Tqualey?

Are there no mysteries of God yet to be revealed?
Yes, indeed, the claim that I and other practicing Catholics can make is that there is full knowledge to the degree that God has revealed His Plan for humanity! And, here are references to back up that statement:

Gen 1:27-28 (the Plan -right from the beginning)
27God created mankind in his image;in the image of God he created them; male and female* he created them. 28God blessed them and God said to them:*** Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it***.* Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that crawl on the earth
Gen 9:6-7 (the Plan is presented again after the Flood)
6 Anyone who sheds the blood of a human being, by a human being shall that one’s blood be shed; For in the image of God have human beings been made.7Be fertile, then, and multiply; abound on earth and subdue it
Notice, there is no place in God’s command to sodomize others. Sex was designed for procreation. But, let’s move to the New Testament…

Matt 5:27-28 (control of one’s sexual desires is not an option)
27 “You have heard that it was said,r ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matt 19:4-6 (Christ reaffirms the holiness of marriage)
4 He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ 5c and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.

Notice, a man is not leaving father and mother to sodomize another man or to be sodomized by him.

About your concern if there are no mysteries yet to be revealed - I can say this, only God knows the fullness of His Plan - and He has entrusted a portion of that to us. There is no mystery necessary for salvation that has not already been revealed. If you were waiting for a revelation that sodomy is now part of God’s Plan for the expression of human sexuality, then you will be waiting until a well-known place freezes over! :eek:

If you want to respond, please, just don’t vent, just don’t come up with more sophistry through endless questions - refute this post, if you can, by giving honest references and discourse. There is the challenge, let’s see what you do.

God bless
 
Are we to be forgiven, denounced, or snuffed?

What’s your counsel my fellow brothers and sisters in sin?

jomoco
Forgiven! Are you ready to repent and sin no more? Or did you want the kind of forgiveness that requires no change in you?

A homosexually-oriented person need only live a chaste life…like the rest of us. When he or she stumbles, like the rest of us, they will need to repent and turn away from sin.

Now, how does legitimizing homosexual relationships help a homosexually-oriented person turn away from sin?
 
Hi, Vz71,

Yes, there is a recurring theme of sinful behavior - but… there are those showed remorse for thier sin, asked for forgiveness and were given life… and yes, there were consequeces for their sin.

There is the confrontation between Nathan and King David or the king’s sins of adultery and murder in 2 Sam 12. Unlike Saul, David is sorrowful and while the king will be punished in seveal ways (that Nathan spells out), his life will be spared. And, David does penance as we see in the Psalms.

Had David acted like Saul and refused to act on the Grace of God - then David would have ended his life like Saul. Notice that Saul continued to plot David’s murder from the time immediately after the victory over Goliath until Saul’s last battle - his hatred for David was that intense.

Notice, Saul continued in his sin - he used his free will for plotting murder and was not sorry for trying to kill David - so God really could not forgive him. Those who continue to refuse the Grace of God and live in the sin of on-going homosexual behavior can not ask for forgiveness and healing if they if they do not repent and acknowledge that they are in need of healing. God really does respect our free will and He will NOT be mocked (Gal 6:7).
I note a recurring theme of sinful behavior.
People have a free will, and they can freely choose to sin or not to sin.
 
Hi, Jomoco,

Yes, indeed, the claim that I and other practicing Catholics can make is that there is full knowledge to the degree that God has revealed His Plan for humanity!

About your concern if there are no mysteries yet to be revealed - I can say this, only God knows the fullness of His Plan - and He has entrusted a portion of that to us. There is no mystery necessary for salvation that has not already been revealed. If you were waiting for a revelation that sodomy is now part of God’s Plan for the expression of human sexuality, then you will be waiting until a well-known place freezes over! :eek:
Allowing you to contradict yourself relieves me of the burden my friend.

It may be of interest to you though that JP2 and every other modern Pope would strongly disagree with your vain assertions quite vociferously.

The whole Christian story in total is the world’s greatest mystery of all, and yet to be revealed in it’s full measure and glory.

jomoco
 
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