Cafeteria Catholic?

[Tantum_ergo]

<<So the consensus seems to be this: agree 100% with every single position the Church takes on every doctrine, political issue, cultural question, etc., or you’re not a Catholic, or you don’t belong in the Church at all?>>

Now, where did you get THAT idea?
There are many things within politics and culture that Catholics can legitimately disagree on, or hold differing opinions that are true to authentic Catholic teaching.

The “core”, creedal, dogmatic considerations one MUST agree with to be a Catholic in good standing. And by agree, I mean that even if you personally have doubts, or questions, you obey. If you dissent, you are entering the worlds of heresy, apostacy, or schizm, but it isn’t the church casting you out, rather it’s you removing yourself from the church. Big difference. And YOU make the choice.

So, John (who believes in expanding business, the death penalty for terrorists who can’t be stopped otherwise, Republicans, hard work, meat and potatoes, charity begins at home) and James (who believes in limiting business, life imprisonment even for terrorists, Democrats, welfare, veganism, and charity for those outside our wonderful country first because they need it most) are BOTH examples of Catholics who hold different but authentic Catholic view points, and provided they follow the creedal and dogmatic Catholic faith (no abortion, no grave sins, and full belief in God) are equally “good” Catholics. John won’t be faulted because he favors the death penalty (see the Catechism for the criteria needed for lawful application) and James won’t be faulted because he supports a program (welfare) which could sometimes (not always) become socialist.

We aren’t lemmings, you know.

 

[buffalo]

You must agree 100% what the Magisterium teaches and professes as well as the dogmas. That is Catholic!

 

[CathyD]

Is there a support group or something for faithful Catholics? I definitely feel like I’m in the minority whenever I’m around folks from my parish (soccer games, meetings…) I think if I admitted that I agree with the Church on everything they’d look at me like I’m nuts.

I know the Forum is a support group of sorts, but I’d like to know others from my parish who are NOT ‘cafeteria’ Catholics.

Cathy

 

[seeker63]

Gotcha. I was curious because of some of my political opinions. I am pro capital punishment, for example. I’m strongly considering converting and am largely in agreement with most of the “party line.”

The main area where I could get into trouble with most of you is with abortion.I wouldn’t pursue it myself, not would I encourage it except in the case of incest, rape, or endangerment of the woman’s life, but frankly it’s not something I really think much about.I don’t get excited about it either way.The only thing I feel about it is those three conditions I mentioned should be allowed.

I’ve long felt if someone wants one they can get one and if they don’t want one they shouldn’t. But that’s more because I believe in minding my own business and letting others mind their’s.

I know this is a major thing to people in determining how they vote, but again, it’s just something I get worked up about. I would not go protest pro or con about it. I don’t believe in mixing religion and politics.

I will also say that I have changed my opinions before, and I won’t say that any of my opinions will stay one way my entire life. It’s just this one matter doesn’t interest me.

I hope this doesn’t start a whole flurry of posts.This board has been of more help to me than you can know.

 

[seeker63]

I should add, so you don’t think me a complete monster, that the views I hold on abortion hinge on my belief that life begins at birth. I don’t know of anyone, for instance, who gives a name to or a funeral for a stillbirth.

The best I can do is ask that you pray for me that I see things otherwise.

 

[space_ghost]

seeker63:

I should add, so you don’t think me a complete monster, that the views I hold on abortion hinge on my belief that life begins at birth. I don’t know of anyone, for instance, who gives a name to or a funeral for a stillbirth.

The best I can do is ask that you pray for me that I see things otherwise.

Consider it done!

 

[wupsie50]

I dearly love the Catholic Church because I am deeply and passionately in love with Her Founder, Jesus Christ. For this reason, I believe and uphold all of Her Teachings, however difficult they may be. I am deeply saddened when the Binkys of this world decide that their ways are superior to Christ’s. So to all of those who are struggling with some Teaching, pray, read, ask questions and then pray some more. And to Binky, there’s always a place that Christ has waiting for you at the Eucharistic Banquet when you decide to come back home.

 

[childofgrace]

Im a baby Catholic.Its not on there.I believed in god and mary,just lost them ore than a few times,I dont know all the prayers,but i always pray.i do say the rosary,though i admit i can get distracted.I just never was one for church…although i went today.

 

[Harland]

I live my Catholic Faith to the best of my ability. Am I perfect no? Do I fail yes? If you check I’m sorry to say you will find I have broken all 10 of the of the Commandments. Was it a deliberate willful act, sometimes? Did I do it because I thought the 10 Commandments are really just suggestions? No. That is what Cafeteria Catholics do. They think the teachings of the Church are just suggestions and they only fallow those they like.

What if somebody liked driving on the left instead of the right? What if somebody didn’t like slowing to 20 MPH in a school zone? What if somebody didn’t like any speed limit on the freeway? There are a lot of rules and laws we have to fallow whether we like them or not. That is one of the things that makes us civilized fallowing the rules, whether we like them or not. Whether they are convenient or not. The prisons are full of people who think rules and laws are for the other guy.

 

[patg]

Harland:

What if somebody liked driving on the left instead of the right? What if somebody didn’t like slowing to 20 MPH in a school zone? What if somebody didn’t like any speed limit on the freeway? There are a lot of rules and laws we have to fallow whether we like them or not. That is one of the things that makes us civilized fallowing the rules, whether we like them or not. Whether they are convenient or not. The prisons are full of people who think rules and laws are for the other guy.

There is a big difference between not following rules that can get yourself and other people killed and having sound logical reasons for disagreeing with the church on things that really have no effect on one’s relationship with God or their fellow humans.

I do not believe that history is being taught in such stories as the garden of eden, the miracle stories, the assumption, or the infancy narratives in the gospels - a belief which is obviously heretical but just as obviously has no bearing on my spiritual life or my life with others.

I wouldn’t want to be anywhere but the cafeteria.

Pat

 

[S_Corda]

Lilyofthevalley:

I think labeling someone as a “Cafeteria Catholic” is a form of self pride. It’s as if you are looking down on someone.

But Lily, that’s what these forums are all about!
You constantly have to watch your priest and, well, everyone who thinks that they are Catholic, for anything you might not feel is right. Then you must assume that they did it with the worst intent possible. Then you have to administer revenge and punishment. You must tell all the world about it, except, of course the accused. That’s the CA Forum way!

The paragraph above is tongue-in-cheek, but unfortunately, it seems to be true more often all the time.

---

Satan is alive and well in these forums. Just look at all the hate, gossip, vengeance.

 

[buffalo]

patg:

There is a big difference between not following rules that can get yourself and other people killed and having sound logical reasons for disagreeing with the church on things that really have no effect on one’s relationship with God or their fellow humans.

I do not believe that history is being taught in such stories as the garden of eden, the miracle stories, the assumption, or the infancy narratives in the gospels - a belief which is obviously heretical but just as obviously has no bearing on my spiritual life or my life with others.

I wouldn’t want to be anywhere but the cafeteria.

Pat

Then you would be what some call a dissenter. Pick and choose the things you would like to believe in. That wouldn’t be Catholic - cafeteria or otherwise.

 

[Kotton]

seeker63:

I don’t know of anyone, for instance, who gives a name to or a funeral for a stillbirth.

Most people have already given a name before birth, and it is on the stone. Also a funeral or at least graveside blessing amoung people I know. Perhaps you just haven’t been in contact with enough of them.

Kotton

 

[Mandi]

seeker63:

I don’t know of anyone, for instance, who gives a name to or a funeral for a stillbirth.

Truly devote Catholic people give names and have funerals for stillborns.

Visit the graveside of one every November, when we do our Stations for the Holy Souls!

 

[seeker63]

BTW, my birthday is All Soul’s Day, and no, I’d not heard of those naming/memorial customs before.

I have two major sticking points on the abortion issue, and apparently, from what the other posters indicate, my position will severely retard my ability to convert and become a good Catholic. (Generally I agree with the more conservative interpretations of Catholicism.) I don’t want to turn this into an abortion thread so I’ll be brief.

1. The foundation of my position lies in the fact I’ve not yet read any convincing scientific evidence that indicates life doesn’t begin when a child is born and takes his first breath. I’m not saying that evidence doesn’t exist, just that I’ve not seen it yet.
2. I agree with “adoption, not abortion” as an idea, but it seems to work better in theory than in actual application. For several years I’ve been considering adoption, especially from Eastern Europe. Now if you look at the photolistings on an adoption agency website, you’ll see kids that will have no trouble being adopted, but you’ll see many others who will probably never be adopted, because they’re too old or have a learning disability, a medical problem, a birth defect, or heck, for that matter, they’re unlucky enough to not be attractive, not the image a person has of “my child.”

In Russia things are even worse. A kid can’t be adopted into the US once he reaches 16, and when he’s 18 or 20, he’s kicked out of the orphanage. If he’s lucky, he’ll have been given some job training so he can support himself, but most orphans have very limited “options” —namely alcoholism, drug addiction, homelessness, prostitution, a rough stint in the military (which is reportedly very sadistic with recruits), and in many cases, suicide. Those don’t seem much like options to me.

The thing is, I can imagine a lot worse situations than never being born, such as spending the entire span of your short life in misery and want, with absolutely no hope. So if we’re unable to take care of the kids we already have among us, why do we keep churning out unwanted babies merely because we are physically able to? That just seems cruel and inhumane to me.

We spay and neuter dogs and cats so they won’t produce litters of unwanted babies and we call that humane and kind. But when I use that analogy people say, “How dare you compare animals to humans?” I’m not, but animals can feel pain and suffer, and if it’s kind and humane to prevent suffering in animals, why is it inhumane to prevent suffering in humans?

And if I was a woman impregnated from a rape or incest, I would hate to have to always associate that trauma with my child, to see my rapist in her face.

I’d really like to grasp the other side of this, since everyone seems to think it’s so important, and my mind is open to hear about this, but my two objections need to be resolved. I’m about to start RCIA and I don’t want to start an uproar there. Please take my questions in the spirit they are intended. My handle isn’t “Seeker” for nothing.

%between%

 

[patg]

buffalo:

Then you would be what some call a dissenter. Pick and choose the things you would like to believe in. That wouldn’t be Catholic - cafeteria or otherwise.

It’s also mostly semantics, but I kind of like “dissenter”!

The phrase “pick and choose the things you would like to believe in” seems pretty insulting to me because it trivializes the very serious effort I, for one, have put into studying the history and teachings. I have worked really hard at this - there is no random selection of what’s easiest on my part and I resent it when my search is categorized as just “picking and choosing”.

Pat

 

[Meggie]

each one of these sad lives have a right to live. Its awful you would want to kill the one who has been wronged simply to spare them from a life of hurt. It would be better to sponsor missions that help these children insted of paying for a doctor to kill them. In each human there is greatness, and it is not our choice to take away from suffering of others.

 

[seeker63]

Well, again, if you saw my first point, I believe life begins at birth, therefore I don’t believe terminating a pregnancy prior to a birth IS killing. I’m sure you can at least see how someone who felt life begins at birth would not consider that murder. If and when I can see satisfactory scientific proof that life begins before that point, then I’ll change my views.

Until then, I can’t fathom how opting for suffering is a humane or Christian thing to do. The old argument,“Oh, but that child might grow up to be another Einstein!,” doesn’t hold water for me when there are thousands of children in this world now no one gives a d___ about and who have not even the chance to live decently, must less the chance to become Einsteins.
As also said, I am looking to see the other side of the issue, so it would be better to show me that than call me a murderer. Anyway, as I’ve also stated I would never be party to an abortion myself, rather I would not say anything either way whether someone else wanted one or not. So please don’t be so quick to attack me and realize I am looking for the answer that will prevent the most suffering. And again read about where I said I think there are things worse than never being born.

Sorry to stir things up. I should’ve known I’d not get an unemotional answer to my concerns.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

weunice:

I think the wording of the Cafeteria Catholic selection is one that few Cafeteria Catholics would pick. Also, I think if you were to redo this without reference to apostolic succession you might get better results.

Something like

I disagree with the Magesterium of the Catholic Church on …

1. Nothing
2. Matters of practice (married priests)
3. Matters of authoritative teaching (birth control)
4. Matters of dogma (Church isn’t visible, communion of saints, Marian dogmas, in a nutshell … Protestantism)
5. Everything pertaining to faith (not Christian)

I have a feeling that 88% might be split a little more between 1 and 2. Any suggestions on making this poll better? I think we can get a better picture of the 88% by clarifying a few things …

Add to that, that rejecting Vatican II or the revised Missal is as choosy as being militantly in favour of abortion - something always forgotten by those who identify the NCR or “liberalism” (whatever that is) as uniquely evil.​

 

[Fortiterinre]

weunice:

I think the wording of the Cafeteria Catholic selection is one that few Cafeteria Catholics would pick. Also, I think if you were to redo this without reference to apostolic succession you might get better results.

Something like

I disagree with the Magesterium of the Catholic Church on …

1. Nothing
2. Matters of practice (married priests)
3. Matters of authoritative teaching (birth control)
4. Matters of dogma (Church isn’t visible, communion of saints, Marian dogmas, in a nutshell … Protestantism)
5. Everything pertaining to faith (not Christian)

I have a feeling that 88% might be split a little more between 1 and 2. Any suggestions on making this poll better? I think we can get a better picture of the 88% by clarifying a few things …

Weunice, post this as your own poll and see what you get! These are great questions!