Cecil the lion's killer revealed as American dentist

[TK421]

This is almost straying from the point.

Big Game Hunting, driving around in a Humvee, and diamond studded grills in teeth are wasteful activities and likely grounded in human vanity. It’s not as though there isn’t any moral element involved in this dentist’s particular choice of lifestyle, but the thread doesn’t deserve the moral outrage that it is receiving. It just doesn’t. There are countless legion examples of vanity & flamboyancy to be found in human society.

Where are the saints that devote treatises addressing big game hunting? Where are the Pope’s writing encyclicals about it? I’ve seen them write encyclicals about human sexuality. About abortion. About communism. About nationalism. About atheism. About radicalism. About divorce. About spirituality. About prayer. The closest thing to a Papal encyclical this gets to is the Holy Father’s recent encyclical on ecology, and there’s a very, very noticeable distinguishing mark between the Pope’s ecology and the ecology being promoted here: ecology is important to the Pope because of how it relates to human welfare. The prime thrust is not on the welfare of animals. The Holy Father has most sagely pointed out the disappointing amount of money that safe & secure Westerners dump into their pets (in their divorcee homes of >2 children). Animals are a nice replacement for people if you have misanthropic tendencies. i.e. it is a form of retreat from the struggle involved in loving fellow man. I suppose you could say that loving animals is a very easy thing to do. Most people that spend significant amounts of time around them quickly understand this. But the love of animals is merely a stepping stone towards our true vocation. It is a kind of baby food, building us up and (ideally) preparing us for the banquet.

So, I go back to my original point: there is an induly intense level of attention & emotion being put on this, and it speaks of the woeful state of Westerners as to how well their consciences have been formed so that they are prioritized and ordered as God desires.

 

[Medical_Student]

It is just an animal. There is nothing wrong with trophy hunting. Hunting a protected lion is not good, however. He should have taken a proper lion, but I cannot blame him. Very likely the hunting company led him to hunt the animal. I wish to one day be able to take such a beast! Conservation efforts should be put in place, and legalized hunting established to procure more numbers.

 

[Path_Finder]

No way do I believe in Trophy Hunting, if the animals were overrunning the area such as with bear or deer or some animal, perhaps then, it would be suitable to hunt such.

I understand Cecil was shot with a crossbow I think. Just adding that in.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

No way do I believe in Trophy Hunting, if the animals were overrunning the area such as with bear or deer or some animal, perhaps then, it would be suitable to hunt such.

That is essentially what is going on. The authorities determine how many lions there are and how many the land will support and sell hunting permits accordingly. They don’t wait till lions are overrunning the land but adjust numbers periodically.

So why should not the hunters who pay to kill the excess lions keep the trophy? What would you prefer was done with the carcass? Bury it in a landfill?

 

[Path_Finder]

That is essentially what is going on. The authorities determine how many lions there are and how many the land will support and sell hunting permits accordingly. They don’t wait till lions are overrunning the land but adjust numbers periodically.

So why should not the hunters who pay to kill the excess lions keep the trophy? What would you prefer was done with the carcass? Bury it in a landfill?

Point taken, I think you are correct, now that you word it like that. And it would be with other animals that can overrun an area, such as squirrels, rabbits, javelinas, all within reason.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Lily, I am having a similar problem with your posts that I am having with Ricky Gervais’ tweet concerning Cecil, the lion.

Ricky has been very vocal about his purported moral outrage regarding the shooting of Cecil.

He tweeted that he could not imagine anything more beautiful than an adult lion and expressed his great horror that anyone could wontonly kill such a beautiful creature.

https://40.media.tumblr.com/9cde4f331a906837233a165acdaeaa9b/tumblr_inline_ns9445EXEQ1tt7nbv_500.png

Let me help out Mr. Gervais with his struggle by offering a picture of a creature that is at least as beautiful as a full grown lion, with the potential to become capable of far more than any adult lion can even imagine – if adult lions are capable of imagining at all…

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr03/2013/8/15/14/enhanced-buzz-940-1376592270-23.jpg

Now if Mr. Gervais were at all consistent in his moral outrage, surely he should be exponentially more appalled and outraged by the fact that millions of these beautiful creatures are dismembered and tossed in the trash (or cannibalized for parts before being unceremoniously disposed) every year.

Of course, Mr. Gervais is following the lead of our entire modern western culture which has clearly shown its woeful inability to direct its moral outrage appropriately.

lifenews.com/2015/07/31/abc-covers-cecil-the-lion-15x-more-than-planned-parenthood-selling-aborted-babies/

Now, it appears your moral outrage is simply following the culture within which you abide – your claims of being a theologian notwithstanding.

You have posted dozens of times to express your outrage on Cecil’s killing, but regarding the cannibalization of baby parts by PP… crickets.

Now, surely those humans who make hundreds of millions of dollars a year promoting and facilitating the dismembering of babies and trafficking in their body parts ought to be viewed – at least – through the same moral lense and with, minimally, as much outrage as a dentist who killed a lion, no?

Clearly our culture has lost its moral compass. We ought to, at least, do our best to remind each other about the most crucial moral issues begging for our attention and not allow ourselves to be distracted from those key issues.

I would suggest that Cecil is more of a distraction than it is a real moral issue, in comparison. Whereas the goings on at PP, and the current US government and judiciary’s attempt to silence those who are trying to awaken and enlighten our moral brokenness should preoccupy much more of our time, effort and good will, no?

Spend some time listening to Eric Metaxis’ radio show over the past week to get a more balanced view of what is at stake.\

metaxastalk.com/podcasts/

Especially the show with John Zmirak.

Peter, I don’t listen to the radio, but I will assure you that I DO care just as much about aborted children, who should have been allowed to grow and play and become adults, etc. I care about children who are neglected or children who meet with misfortune. This weekend I’ve spent time praying for the two young boys who were apparently lost at sea off the coast of Jupiter, Florida.

Someone said to me that Christ would have died for Palmer even if he had been the only man in the world. I know that. Christ would have died for an abortion doctor even if he had been the only man in the world. It’s a bitter pill to swallow, but it’s true. That doesn’t mean I approve of abortion. In no way do I approve of abortion. I think Roe vs. Wade needs overturned, but with this liberal court, i don’t see that happening.

I haven’t been at the computer much lately. I didn’t even see a thread on PP, but be assured, I hate PP. Can’t stand them!

 

[Lily_Bernans]

The only superiority I see in this story is the superiority of those howling
about the inhumanity of the dentist as though he is some kind of monster
lacking their finer sensibilities and sense of right and wrong.

If the dentist broke any laws, let Zimbabwe deal with it.

It is unChristian for people to be hounding this man to death, hoping that he
loses his livelihood, and even calling for his hanging because he killed an animal.
It’s as though all the hatred that people have been storing up in their hearts is now
being emptied out on this man. It’s sick and wrong.

Lily, please note:
Jesus died to save humans beings. Animals are below human beings.
It isn’t that complicated.

Also, by definition, a lion can’t be “murdered”.

Sarah, do you think you know more than the Bible or St. Paul? Are you putting yourself above God?

Christ died to redeem ALL OF CREATION. Period.

Jesus redeemed ALL OF CREATION, not just humankind:

“The Son of God became man in order to restore all creation, in one supreme act of praise, to the One who made it from nothing. He, the Eternal High Priest who by the blood of his Cross entered the eternal sanctuary, thus gives back to the Creator and Father all creation redeemed” (Eccl. De Euch., 8).

St. Paul:

“God wanted all fullness to be found in him, and through him to reconcile all things to him, everything in heaven and everything on earth, by making peace through his death on the cross” (Col 1:15, 19-20).

ALL OF CREATION includes Cecil.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

No, disturbing is people getting worked up over the killing of a wild animal to the point of making death threats. Even those who have not gone that far seem entirely comfortable being part of that mob.

Nobody intended the animal to suffer for 40 hours but obviously that is a risk. Are you claiming some knowledge that the hunter could have ended the animals suffering earlier and chose to wait? Or are you simply so consumed with hatred that you are willing to imply the worst you can imagine?

How do you know he didn’t intend for it to suffer, Bubba? Did Palmer tell you? He doesn’t seem like a man who would win any awards for compassion to me.

Now I don’t believe in people making death threats against him. Those who do are almost as bad as he is. I don’t want him dead. I think he just needs to go back to Zimbabwe and face the music. In fact, the way people are out of control, Zimbabwe might be the safest place for him right now. They don’t want to kill him, they just want to try him in a court of law, and they have fair courts of law.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

How do you know he didn’t intend for it to suffer, Bubba? Did Palmer tell you? He doesn’t seem like a man who would win any awards for compassion to me.

He might not seem like that to you but I have seen nothing in the news reports to suggest that he was doing anything other than a normal trophy hunt. The normal intent in a hunt is a quick death of the animal. If that fails then the next best thing is to track down the animal and finish the kill (as opposed to letting it go off and die of its wounds). This is apparently what he did. What you describe as 40 hours of suffering I would describe as 40 hours of pursuit.

Now I don’t believe in people making death threats against him. Those who do are almost as bad as he is. I don’t want him dead. I think he just needs to go back to Zimbabwe and face the music. In fact, the way people are out of control, Zimbabwe might be the safest place for him right now. They don’t want to kill him, they just want to try him in a court of law, and they have fair courts of law.

Death threats againsgt a human being are almost as bad as kiling a wild animal? Not by a long shot. There is a good chance that he was ignorant and therefore innocent of the hunting irregularities. If that is the case, what is your position?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

He might not seem like that to you but I have seen nothing in the news reports to suggest that he was doing anything other than a normal trophy hunt. The normal intent in a hunt is a quick death of the animal. If that fails then the next best thing is to track down the animal and finish the kill (as opposed to letting it go off and die of its wounds). This is apparently what he did. What you describe as 40 hours of suffering I would describe as 40 hours of pursuit.

Death threats againsgt a human being are almost as bad as kiling a wild animal? Not by a long shot. There is a good chance that he was ignorant and therefore innocent of the hunting irregularities. If that is the case, what is your position?

Well, I don’t think anyone should threaten to kill him. Or anyone else. I think he should be extradited to Zimbabwe, and if he’s innocent, he’ll be set free, if not, he can do his time and learn his lesson.

Even though we have different views on killing animals surely you know Palmer knew he was killing a protected animal. He paid $50,000 for the guides to take him to Cecil. Cecil lives in a clearly marked sanctuary. The man was a “big game trophy hunter” for goodness sake. He knew he who and what he was shooting.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Even though we have different views on killing animals surely you know Palmer knew he was killing a protected animal. He paid $50,000 for the guides to take him to Cecil. Cecil lives in a clearly marked sanctuary. The man was a “big game trophy hunter” for goodness sake. He knew he who and what he was shooting.

That’s not my understainding. My understanding is that he paid for a lion hunt and thought that all permits were in proper order. I have not seen anyone claim that he asked for, or knew, he was hunting the world-famous lion Cecil. I can’t be so sure that the local guide was so innocent but perhaps he didn’t recognize the lion at the distance it was shot. I expect we’ll learn more from the trial of the guide which is already proceeding.

 

[sarah_j]

Sarah, do you think you know more than the Bible or St. Paul? Are you putting yourself above God?

Christ died to redeem ALL OF CREATION. Period.

Jesus redeemed ALL OF CREATION, not just humankind:

“The Son of God became man in order to restore all creation, in one supreme act of praise, to the One who made it from nothing. He, the Eternal High Priest who by the blood of his Cross entered the eternal sanctuary, thus gives back to the Creator and Father all creation redeemed” (Eccl. De Euch., 8).

St. Paul:

“God wanted all fullness to be found in him, and through him to reconcile all things to him, everything in heaven and everything on earth, by making peace through his death on the cross” (Col 1:15, 19-20).

ALL OF CREATION includes Cecil.

Good grief! Please fill us in on what sins “all of creation” committed
which needed forgiveness.

I will give this one more try :

Animals** cannot **sin. Therefore, they are not in need of redemption.
Jesus did not die to redeem animals, He came to redeem human beings.

Perhaps you should “Ask an apologist” on this forum if Jesus came to redeem animals.
Or check your Catechism.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm

" God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image."
Perhaps that will help to clarify that there is a difference between MAN, whom
God ‘created in His own image’, and animals who are subject to man.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Good grief! Please fill us in on what sins “all of creation” committed
which needed forgiveness.

I will give this one more try :

Animals** cannot **sin. Therefore, they are not in need of redemption.
Jesus did not die to redeem animals, He came to redeem human beings.

Perhaps you should “Ask an apologist” on this forum if Jesus came to redeem animals.
Or check your Catechism.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm

" God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image."
Perhaps that will help to clarify that there is a difference between MAN, whom
God ‘created in His own image’, and animals who are subject to man.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm

So you do think you know more than God! What hubris!

God made the world for Jesus, not for us. Jesus was going to enter human history even if NO ONE EVER SINNED. Man, through his sin has sullied all of creation. Jesus redeemed ALL OF CREATION for God the Father.

Are you going to keep on arguing with God’s word, i.e. the Bible? Geez.

I’m a theologian, Sarah. I don’t need to “ask an apologist.” I’ve got a school full of theology professors should I NEED to ask, which I don’t.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

That’s not my understainding. My understanding is that he paid for a lion hunt and thought that all permits were in proper order. I have not seen anyone claim that he asked for, or knew, he was hunting the world-famous lion Cecil. I can’t be so sure that the local guide was so innocent but perhaps he didn’t recognize the lion at the distance it was shot. I expect we’ll learn more from the trial of the guide which is already proceeding.

We can agree on your last statement, Bubba. I guess we will learn more as time goes on and if Palmer is, indeed, extradited to Zimbabwe. It’s like most thing, time will tell the whole story.

 

[sarah_j]

So you do think you know more than God! What hubris!

God made the world for Jesus, not for us. Jesus was going to enter human history even if NO ONE EVER SINNED. Man, through his sin has sullied all of creation. Jesus redeemed ALL OF CREATION for God the Father.

Are you going to keep on arguing with God’s word, i.e. the Bible? Geez.

I’m a theologian, Sarah. I don’t need to “ask an apologist.” I’ve got a school full of theology professors should I NEED to ask, which I don’t.

I’m not arguing with the word of God, but with your misunderstanding of the Bible.

You’d do well to clarify these issues with a Catholic theologian.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I’m not arguing with the word of God, but with your misunderstanding of the Bible.

You’d do well to clarify these issues with a Catholic theologian.

I AM a Roman Catholic theologian.

How much plainer can that get? And I HAVE clarified it with OTHER Roman Catholic theologians. We are correct.

 

[JimmyG88]

I know this has been discussed ad nauseum but since you are still stuck on this, I’ll try once more.

Given the encroachment of man it is inevitable that lions will be killed by humans to manage their numbers. There is no choice there.

Now maybe you would prefer it done in some other manner but if people are willing to pay to do what needs to be done then it’s easy to see why that’s a win-win for Zimbabwe. All that is necessary is that it be done according to the rules; the only genuine issue here is whether those rules were broken and by who.

I don’t know if anyone eats lion meat but why, given the above, would you wish to see the carcass destroyed instead of prized?

You keep addressing an incorrect point. This head case didn’t go to Africs to carry out wildlife management. He went to gratuitously kill an animal. Zimbabwe are very very clear that they don’t consider this anything other than a crime. I know this is hard for you to understand but many people consider hunting for ‘sport’ a sub human pastime hunting for food fine killing for pleasue is something you should see a psychiatrist about

 

[pianistclare]

I AM a Roman Catholic theologian.

How much plainer can that get? And I HAVE clarified it with OTHER Roman Catholic theologians. We are correct.

Professors in a university’s religious studies department are usually theologians, and religious leaders are usually considered to be theologians.
I would say that calling oneself a theologian without being published or holding a chair at a major university (you self-identify as a student) does not qualify one for the statement “I am a theologian”. While you might be well read, and also in school, I would also say that even children understand that animals need no redemption.
Sarah j is correct.

Let’s get back to topic.
The dentist killed a lion he clearly had no business hunting. Now people feel good about hunting him. The whole thing is tragic, on all sides.

 

[Exiled_Child]

Yeah, this whole thing enraged me to the point that I, too, was feeling pretty satisfied about this dentist’s subsequent misfortunes.

I guess that’s maybe not the best way to approach this story.

 

[Regular_Atheist]

Why do people bring abortion into this? It seems slightly irrelevant. A foetus being a moral subject doesn’t mean we can ignore the way we treat animals.