Child not getting married in the church

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It’s the Church’s authority, but cases are decided by humans, vulnerable to error.

If I were Satan, that would be a huge focus for me.

Break down the Domestic Church, and God loses. Keep them away from His Eucharist, and God loses.
 
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Going back to your main argument, you say that if a person breaks off a relationship because you didn’t attend their wedding, they are completely at fault for the relationship ending because they are being aggressive toward the Church.

Can you acknowledge that someone might see it as legalistic and hypocritical when the Church grants annulments, allowing for divorce and remarriage, but won’t recognize civil divorce?

In other words, you can get divorced and remarried but you have to do it our way (which—before Pope Francis—was expensive and complicated) but if you want to do essentially the same thing outside of our way, we won’t allow it. And we’ll bar you from the Sacraments and treat you like an outcast, while meanwhile many of our other members are doing exactly the same thing, but we allow it because they did it our way.

Ever think things like that might drive people away from the Church? And maybe lead them to be not so understanding about someone close to them not attending their wedding because of these strict laws that appear to have a double standard?
 
Psalm30 said:
Can you acknowledge that someone might see it as legalistic and hypocritical when the Church grants annulments, allowing for divorce and remarriage, but won’t recognize civil divorce?
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I do acknowledge that for sure.

You are talking to a man who is sick at heart over our Church!

But here is the thing, His Holy Spirit counsels me to know that this is people in the Church making things messed up.

It’s not the laws that are a problem, it’s the people who try to interpret them and apply them in a disordered manner. It’s the people who try to relax them, or dont see the goodness behind them. It’s the people who neglect them when they dont care, but then use it to their advantage when
It suits them.

Take the requirement to marry in the Church. Why would anyone NOT want to have their marriage in the Church? I can think of lots of poor reasons people use as excuses, but I cant think of a good one. Yet these bad reasons are used, and the marriage happens away. Then, if the marriage has strains and difficulty, one or both of these two Catholics can stroll into the Church and say, “We dont want to be married to each other anymore. We want to be happy and find a spouse that will make us happy. We dont love each other anymore.” And those in positions of authority will look and say, “Well let’s see… oh, you didnt marry in the Church! This will be easy!”

I say, what were Catholics doing when they were getting married? And having children? Celebrating their wedding? What resistance did they ever receive from those in authority?
And we’ll bar you from the Sacraments and treat you like an outcast.
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Divorce against canon law should be disciplined! Remarriage should be disciplined! Neither are! Those in authority find impediments to use in their situation. I’ve seen it! And it happens because no one cares, and those in authority want to coincide with the secular situation. They dont want to disturb the secular world, and they look like the big hero for the divorced!

But what I do not understand is your supposed amazing couple who lives marriage out to perfection, yet leaves His Eucharist! No, marriage is a reflection of the Church and Jesus. I think you described a selfish couple who doesnt care about suffering for Jesus. They love each other, but who cares? They have their reward. It’s easy to love someone who loves you. Try helping Jesus and be a member of His Church. Try receiving Eucharist in a worthy manner! Throwing in the towel and blaming others, or not believing is not something minor to me.
 
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Your posts are really starting to make me mad. You avoid directly answering the question and go off on interpreting what I’ve said in every way but what I meant.

Can you not see how all of this would drive someone away from the Church and lead them to maybe be not so understanding about a close relative who refuses to attend their wedding in the name of these rigid laws that seem to have a double standard?

Of course you can’t. I’m not sure why I asked. The answer is, no you cannot see it.
Ammi said:
But here is the thing, His Holy Spirit counsels me to know that this is people in the Church making things messed up.
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For others, it’s not necessarily that easy to separate. Walk a mile in their shoes and then rigidly condemn them for not being able to separate it. Be the abused spouse, the spouse who was abandoned, the spouse who was cheated on, the spouse who stuck it out for 30 years and finally couldn’t take it anymore, who then finally finds someone who loves them and treats them right and makes a good marriage but can’t have that second chance in the name of rigid laws. Then you can call them out on being mad at you for not attending their wedding in the name of rigid laws that have a double standard.

Yes, it’s the people, not the Church. I understand that and agree with it. But they’re doing it under the Church’s authority. They represent the Church. It’s a fine line. Someone may not want to be part of a Church whose members behave that way in the name of religion. You choose to ignore this and continue to put the every last bit of the blame on them. Not cool.
Ammi said:
But what I do not understand is your supposed amazing couple who lives marriage out to perfection, yet leaves His Eucharist! No, marriage is a reflection of the Church and Jesus. I think you described a selfish couple who doesnt care about suffering for Jesus. They love each other, but who cares? They have their reward. It’s easy to love someone who loves you. Try helping Jesus and be a member of His Church. Try receiving Eucharist in a worthy manner! Throwing in the towel and blaming others, or not believing is not something minor to me.
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Again, you’re really starting to make me mad.

The anatomy of a good marriage is anything but selfishness. The couple I described is not selfish! That’s the point. They sacrifice themselves for each other and their children! Is this not how marriage is supposed to work?
Ammi said:
No, marriage is a reflection of the Church and Jesus.
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Exactly. Christ laying down His life for His bride. The couple I describe are doing just that. Can you see that?

Of, course you can’t. I’m not sure why I asked. The answer is, no you cannot see it. Your black and white, all-or-nothing attitude prevents it.
 
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Ammi said:
Then, if the marriage has strains and difficulty, one or both of these two Catholics can stroll into the Church and say, “We dont want to be married to each other anymore. We want to be happy and find a spouse that will make us happy. We dont love each other anymore.”
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Once again, walk in the shoes of the abused spouse, the spouse who was abandoned, the spouse who was cheated on, the spouse who stuck it out for 30 years and finally couldn’t take it anymore, who then finally finds someone who loves them and treats them right and makes a good marriage but can’t have that second chance in the name of rigid laws. Then you can call them out on being mad at you for not attending their wedding in the name of rigid laws that have a double standard.
 
Do you realize there is canon law which guides marriages in trouble and abuse???

Very few care to follow it.

Very few bring their pastor into the situation, and the pastor guides a separation according to canon law.
 
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No, the couple you described are not doing that! St Rita did that! The couple you described were happy, but on the condition they left Jesus.

What you are doing, is continuing and supporting Protestant revolution all over again. Perpetually.

We need to stop the blame game, and participate in the life of the Church. Not just enjoy our own relationship, without any responsibility to help the Church.
 
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Ammi said:
Why would anyone NOT want to have their marriage in the Church? I can think of lots of poor reasons people use as excuses, but I cant think of a good one.
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I can…but it usually also entails the Catholic obtaining the proper paperwork to do so.

Initially my wife and I weren’t going to get married in a Catholic church, but I imaging she would have been able to obtain a disposition fairly easily.
 
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Well that wouldnt be marrying outside the Church then. Because the Church would approve.

This is not a big deal. A sincere couple, with a sincere request can get dispensation.

But many dont care about that at all. They dont care about the Church at all. Not in their actions, and not in leaving His Eucharist.
 
Ammi said:
No, the couple you described are not doing that! St Rita did that! The couple you described were happy, but on the condition they left Jesus.
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You are so far off the mark on this. I just can’t… I don’t believe it. :woman_facepalming:t2:

They are not happy “on the condition they left Jesus!” It’s not because they left Jesus that they are happy! They are serving each other and their children! You’re married, right? Marriage involves daily sacrifice even in the best of circumstances! They are living the law of love by making sacrifices for each other and their children!

They may have left Jesus, but they are still behaving like Him in their self-giving love for each other. They are wrong about leaving the Church but right in the way they live their daily lives, which certainly isn’t perfect or always happy, but they live in the way of love! It isn’t all-or-nothing!

And I really hope you aren’t using St. Rita to say one must stay with an abusive spouse, because if you are, that’s as cruel and anti-Catholic as you have repeatedly angrily accused many of the earlier posters on this thread. More.
Ammi said:
What you are doing, is continuing and supporting Protestant revolution all over again. Perpetually.
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Sorry you see it that way. That’s not what I’m doing. At all. The fact that you think this further proves that you haven’t a clue what my point has been this whole time.
 
You are looking at SOME aspects of potential goodness in a couple, and desiring to celebrate their wedding for those potential reasons.

What you mistake is the wrong actions of the couple for leaving the Church. Accusing Church members as the blame isnt doing them any good, or the sincere Catholics striving within the Church.

This was the Protestant reformation.

Abuses leading to Catholics leaving the Church and having new created Communion among themselves.

Marriage is not about each other living in their private bliss. Its helping each other be stronger Christian’s and participating in the life of the Church.
 
Ammi said:
You are looking at SOME aspects of potential goodness in a couple, and desiring to celebrate their wedding for those potential reasons.
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I’m sorry you can’t see that goodness. I’d like to think Jesus does. I hope He doesn’t have the all-or-nothing stance you do. It’s wrong they left the Church. But they are living rightly in other ways. I hope Jesus can acknowledge that while they are wrong to leave the Church they are still right in some ways.
Ammi said:
What you mistake is the wrong actions of the couple for leaving the Church. Accusing Church members as the blame isnt doing them any good, or the sincere Catholics striving within the Church.

This was the Protestant reformation.

Abuses leading to Catholics leaving the Church and having new created Communion among themselves.
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Telling them it’s all their fault and putting the blame on them when they were wronged by the Church isn’t doing any good either. It would most likely drive them further away. It’s a shame you can’t find the middle ground…which may actually bring people back to the Church and help the Church as a whole.
Ammi said:
Marriage is not about each other living in their private bliss. Its helping each other be stronger Christian’s and participating in the life of the Church.
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Private bliss? Interesting…
 
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They cant have a Christian marriage. Which means a rejection of grace. Which they are doing by refraining from Reconciliation and Eucharist too.
 
A Catholic who marries with an impediment.

Btw, I think this impediment is much more black and white than those regarding consent and intentions at their wedding. If no one is fighting to defend validity, they can fit any situation under an impediment.
 
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