Conservatives Demand Kids of Gays be Expelled

[Jay74]

This good thread has turned into a discussion about whether or not someone is a real catholic because they don’t subscribe to all teachings. Maybe a good thread for Apologetics if it is kept nice.

I fear our good discussion on homosexuality/adoption/schooling/children may end up being closed if we don’t play nice.

On a catholic forum, we should expect most to be againt homosexual marriage, adoption, relationships, etc. I’m pleased that most do not want to carry thes sins of the parents over to the child and deprive them of an opportunity for a good Catholic education and guidance.

The only way the child may have to go is if the parents used their child’s being there as leverage to legally strongarm the church into rejecting catholic doctrine, then it becomes a bigger issue than just one child–all would be deprived of the truth, not just one deprived of the school.

Blessings.

 

[StJeanneDArc]

fix:

Yes, I think it matters. The sin of scandal is lost on our generation. I suppose one would have to explain, at the appropriate age, that the parents of the child are not living as God expects us to live. If not, then why bother teaching the child about the moral law?

Thank you, Fix and Jay, for reeling us back in. I think that my objection to admitting a child from such a “family” is that I really don’t think that I should have to explain to my kindergartener why little Johnny has 2 daddies. It’s the parents’ decision as to when the appropriate age is. Introducing this child and his “family” into the school community may force parents into an explanation too early.

 

[StJeanneDArc]

Norwich:

What a contentious topic. Pro gay, anti gay, children in school, children out of school, yet I wonder,… has anyone asked the chidren?

For those of you that condemn or condone out of hand I would remind you the Church condemns the sin, not the sinner. It’s worth remembering that sometimes.

You are absolutely correct about condemning the sin. But what about the sinner proudly standing up and proclaiming that he’s not sinning? This is the agenda of the homosexual community. Just the fact that these two men are living together and presenting themselves as a “couple” and the “fathers” of these children is a declaration that they don’t think they are sinning.

 

[Lisa_N]

StJeanneDArc:

Thank you, Fix and Jay, for reeling us back in. I think that my objection to admitting a child from such a “family” is that I really don’t think that I should have to explain to my kindergartener why little Johnny has 2 daddies. It’s the parents’ decision as to when the appropriate age is. Introducing this child and his “family” into the school community may force parents into an explanation too early.

Yes and as someone else pointed out before we derailed the thread, I have to wonder at two openly gay males sending their child to a Catholic school. Do they believe that the child will not be exposed to Catholic teachings including the prohibition of homosexual activity? How will they explain that their teacher talks about normal families with a mommy and a daddy? Do they consider how the child will be placed in a compromising position at a young age in order to explain why he has no mommy? Is that fair to the child? Further, being the suspicious sort, I wonder if this isn’t a setup. Child goes to school, has daddies’ lifestyle condemned. Suddenly it’s in the newspapers that those mean old Catholics are picking on a five year old or making him feel bad yada yada yada. Court case, lawyers jump in. Catholic church looks like the meanie once again.

BTW someone suggested asking the child. Ask him what? What could a five year old possibly understand about his situation? As to the charge that the child is being blamed, no. The two gay males are being questioned about THEIR motives.

Lisa N

 

[Jay74]

StJeanneDArc:

I think that my objection to admitting a child from such a “family” is that I really don’t think that I should have to explain to my kindergartener why little Johnny has 2 daddies.

That’s a fair point. My main reservation is the effects on other students, especially if they sue the school into suppressing doctrine.

I still long to see some Godliness brought into this child’s life.

There is no morally perfect answer.

 

[Jay74]

Lisa N:

BTW someone suggested asking the child. Ask him what? What could a five year old possibly understand about his situation?

Very true. If a person possessed this knowledge and wisdom at 5, parents would be unnecessary.

Their well-being is their parents responsibility first, followed by society/community/church/etc.

It is possible they are setting the school up. It is also possible that it is a good school, and/or the public school is bad, and the “parents” are trying to act in the best interest of the child. After all, my parents don’t even believe in God but sent me to a christian school because they beleived it to be in my best interest–i think it was God influencing them to guide me to Him, and it is possible that this is the same.

We need to weigh the positives and negatives for both the child and the other children that may be effected.

Regardless of our disagreements, we can agree on prayer.

 

[Jay74]

Here is one potential consequence of allowing the child to attend if they preach the Bible to him. I just started another thread about Pensylvania Christians sentenced to 47 in prison for reading the Bible to gays in public. It was deemed hate speech. The thread is here.

forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=385548#post385548

Another thing to pray about

 

[Lisa_N]

Jay74:

Here is one potential consequence of allowing the child to attend if they preach the Bible to him. I just started another thread about Pensylvania Christians sentenced to 47 in prison for reading the Bible to gays in public. It was deemed hate speech. The thread is here.

forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=385548#post385548

Another thing to pray about

I saw that. And we thought it couldn’t happen here!
Lisa N

 

[Shoshana]

TarAshly:

Thank you for including me in your prayers we all need them and i am in desperate need of a prayer to teach me patience and a more cool head. i apologize if i got to harsh or carried away. my faith is something i hold very dear and have had to face a lot of judgement and ridicule my my husbands family and my own due to being the only Catholic. the Catholic jokes are never ending so i can tend to be a little over sensitive. again i apologize.

Tar,

Our journey towards God is a mystery to me. I belong to the Catholic Church because I believe the Church contains the fullness of the truth. Years ago, I had to learn the wisdom of Mother Church by being disciplined by God Himself. Before I was married, I took pre-cana classes with my soon to be husband as dictated by the Faith. Birth control was an issue for me then and I defied the Pope’s teaching on it as I did not believe the pope had the right to tell me what to do in my marriage bed. For many years I held this view. Years ago, during an exorcism (that lasted 5 years), I was shown by God Himself that I was so wrong in my thinking. You see Satan always plays mind games with us. And I began to see that birth control was only the opposite of control the birth. And it became to pass that abortion was made legal and then, abortion became a birth control. So, it doesn’t matter that a woman has had 1 abortion or 5 as long as she is able to control the birth whether there was a viable human being or not. Our Mother Church knew in Her great wisdom that birth control would only be the beginning of awful things. And these awful things has shown their ugly faces in today’s society.

So, now I understand with God’s mercy and understanding why the Church has made such a statement. It is too late for me and I have repented whole-heartedly. In my generation, birth contol was the ‘in’ thing and now this next generation is just following up on it with the destruction of any form of life and not only suppressing it. The evil has escalated to the umphteenth degree. Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on all of us.

So, same-sex couples adopting a child will have severe and unbelievable consequenses. Believe me. The Church knows. I realize you are sincere, no different than I was in 1973…the hippie age. But I was sincerely wrong…and I realized that sincerity does not bring one to heaven.

Just thinking of you and many,

Blessings,
Shoshana smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_12v.gif

 

[mlchance]

TarAshly:

why is it unfortunate that an unwanted baby found a loving caring home?

Why do you keep harping on the same question when it’s been answered?

How about this?: Children raised by gay men are significantly more likely to be sexually abused than children raised by a heterosexual couple. Gay couples are significantly more promiscuous, thus likely exposing the children a twisted sexual morality. They are also much more likely to “divorce” than a heterosexual couple. Incidents of suicide, alcohol and drug abuse, and depression are all significantly higher among homosexuals than heterosexuals; thus, the children are much more likely to be exposed to these horrible things. Children raised by homosexuals are much more likely to experience sexual identify confusion than children raised by heterosexuals.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[fix]

StJeanneDArc:

Thank you, Fix and Jay, for reeling us back in. I think that my objection to admitting a child from such a “family” is that I really don’t think that I should have to explain to my kindergartener why little Johnny has 2 daddies. It’s the parents’ decision as to when the appropriate age is. Introducing this child and his “family” into the school community may force parents into an explanation too early.

What will happen when our society decides that “group” marriages are legitimate. You know, 2 or 3 or 5 people getting “married”? Once the definition of marriage is abused there will be no end to how plastic it will become.

The Church, in Her wisdom, has said it is a grave error to allow homosexuals to adopt and raise children. What is so shocking is that such normal reasoning is seen as extreme.

We need to remember what authentic love is and what raising and carimg for children is about.

 

[TarAshly]

mlchance:

Why do you keep harping on the same question when it’s been answered?

How about this?: Children raised by gay men are significantly more likely to be sexually abused than children raised by a heterosexual couple. Gay couples are significantly more promiscuous, thus likely exposing the children a twisted sexual morality. They are also much more likely to “divorce” than a heterosexual couple. Incidents of suicide, alcohol and drug abuse, and depression are all significantly higher among homosexuals than heterosexuals; thus, the children are much more likely to be exposed to these horrible things. Children raised by homosexuals are much more likely to experience sexual identify confusion than children raised by heterosexuals.

– Mark L. Chance.

i have already addressed my feelings about these “facts”. i have gay friends who have been a couple for 15 + years/ longer than some marriages last. and as to the rest of your “facts” i have addressed them. please see my previous posts. i never “harped” i posed a question.

 

[Lisa_N]

TarAshly:

i have already addressed my feelings about these “facts”. i have gay friends who have been a couple for 15 + years/ longer than some marriages last. and as to the rest of your “facts” i have addressed them. please see my previous posts. i never “harped” i posed a question.

And that question would be? Seems like many have answered your questions. But maybe one has been forgotten?

Lisa N

 

[fix]

Lisa N:

And that question would be? Seems like many have answered your questions. But maybe one has been forgotten?

Lisa N

I do not want to be seen as picking on Tar. I just am so nonplussed as to why so many think children should be in the care of openly homosexual pairs.

 

[manualman]

Guys, be charitable. What I see in TarAshley is a woman who loves God, and seeks to live and share that love with the world. She has acknowledged belief that sodomy is gravely disordered and harmful/sinful. All this amatuer excommunication is over adoption by gay couples? Don’t get me wrong, I oppose it unwaveringly. But I suspect we all have a log or two in our own eyes to worry about more than this sliver, no?

Tarashley, I too suffer from hot-headedness and no small pride. I also grew up in the PC culture that has put some very slick PR spin on the gay ‘orientation.’ I see your position growing out of what you believe to be compassion and your own observation of at least one gay couple. But I would request that you overlook the defensive response that comes naturally from confrontations like this one and ask God to reveal what is really best for the children. What will they usually witness in such a 'family?" How will growing up in a gay environment affect the development of their own sexual identity? Shoshanna made some GREAT points about the church’s prophetic track record in such matters.

And you are 100% correct that the church does NOT advocate general ostracizing, discrimination or violence towards gays. Only prudent restrictions to protect the innocent and impressionable from moral harm.

 

[Jay74]

I’ll argue both sides. I have 3 dear friends who are gay–two fight for gay marriage, and the third opposes it due to his concern for children. Though the Bible condemns homosexuality, I do not believe that gays are some supercondemned group of people–I’d prefer the company of a gay over a thief, someone who is violent, or dishonest person any day.

I also believe wholeheartedly that gays are capable of loving children and being a good parent. I still contend though, that two men can’t be a good mother, and two women can’t be a good father.

I also doubt that there are many (if any) gays who intend to destroy the institution of marriage or to hurt children. However, good intentions don’t necessarily mean good results. Fact is, depriving children of a mother or father does hurt children. And any society that has legalized gay marriage has suffered–it weakens marriage, weakens parenting–it shows there is nothing special of the man/woman bond, especially when it comes to being a mother and father, and that the only thing special is the number of people in the marriage. The number is 2 for now, but it opens the door for more–that is dismissed as a “slippery slope” argument often, but it is true that there are consequences.

Marriage isn’t a right. It is a responsibility. Gays already have the legal rights live together, name beneficiaries, be life partners, etc. Society is not obligated to give such a relationship its highest stamp of approval–that blessing is deserved only by the special man/woman bond that can create and nurture a family. For them to force society to recognize it as equal to man/woman marriage is to take rights away from society, not the other way around.

God loves every homosexual, and as such we should treat them with dignity and wish them well. God never intended children to be deprived of a mother or father by design, and he did it for good reason.

However, (in keepign with the original thread), lets never deprive children because of their parents.

 

[TarAshly]

Jay74:

I’ll argue both sides. I have 3 dear friends who are gay–two fight for gay marriage, and the third opposes it due to his concern for children. Though the Bible condemns homosexuality, I do not believe that gays are some supercondemned group of people–I’d prefer the company of a gay over a thief, someone who is violent, or dishonest person any day.

I also believe wholeheartedly that gays are capable of loving children and being a good parent. I still contend though, that two men can’t be a good mother, and two women can’t be a good father.

I also doubt that there are many (if any) gays who intend to destroy the institution of marriage or to hurt children. However, good intentions don’t necessarily mean good results. Fact is, depriving children of a mother or father does hurt children. And any society that has legalized gay marriage has suffered–it weakens marriage, weakens parenting–it shows there is nothing special of the man/woman bond, especially when it comes to being a mother and father, and that the only thing special is the number of people in the marriage. The number is 2 for now, but it opens the door for more–that is dismissed as a “slippery slope” argument often, but it is true that there are consequences.

Marriage isn’t a right. It is a responsibility. Gays already have the legal rights live together, name beneficiaries, be life partners, etc. Society is not obligated to give such a relationship its highest stamp of approval–that blessing is deserved only by the special man/woman bond that can create and nurture a family. For them to force society to recognize it as equal to man/woman marriage is to take rights away from society, not the other way around.

God loves every homosexual, and as such we should treat them with dignity and wish them well. God never intended children to be deprived of a mother or father by design, and he did it for good reason.

However, (in keepign with the original thread), lets never deprive children because of their parents.

i think that that was well spoken and right on. the world and Church need more people like you.

 

[fix]

Jay74:

I’ll argue both sides. I have 3 dear friends who are gay–two fight for gay marriage, and the third opposes it due to his concern for children. Though the Bible condemns homosexuality, I do not believe that gays are some supercondemned group of people–I’d prefer the company of a gay over a thief, someone who is violent, or dishonest person any day.

I try never to use the word “gay” when refering to folks who suffer from SSA. That word is politically charged and carries a specific meaning. The bible condems homosexual acts. They in fact are singled out, with a handful of sins, specifically as offending God.

Many people are very concerned about the onslaught of “gay” friendly things that pervade of society. Television, pop culture in general, are very pro “gay”. This environment can easily dull consciences and make one think compassion is accepting the sinner and the sin.

In almost every instance when these issues are debated one side always plays the discrimination card. They charge that adhering to Catholic teaching is “condeming” “gays”.

Just as one side sees restricting the “gay” agenda as overly zealous and mean spirited, the opposing side sees the constant accomadation as not only misguided, but seriously deleterious to immortal souls.

Being friends with open homosexuals, like a thief or other unrepentent sinner, should allow us to evangelize them, from time to time.

I, also, want to know how one can be a good parent when living a life so contrary to the Gospel?

 

[Lisa_N]

TarAshly:

i think that that was well spoken and right on. the world and Church need more people like you.

TarAshley, the problem with your whole line of argument, is that with RARE exception, everyone on this board has expressed compassion for homosexuals. They have not expressed a desire to hunt them down and persecute them. Further very little of that kind of activity happens anywhere in this country. You’ve made all sorts of outrageous claims about persecution of homosexuals, yet when people point out time and time again, that the majority of us “love the sinner hate the sin” you interpret objecting to homosexual activities or special rights as a desire to eradicate all homosexuals from the face of the earth.

Those of us who may love individuals who are homosexual but who do not think homosexuals should be “married” or should procure and raise children are not the same as someone who wants every homosexual strung up by his/her thumbs if indeed such people exist. You have yet to provide any evidence this even occurs other than in the propaganda of the homosexual activists. I think this is why it seems people are picking on you, as you don’t seem to be able to distinguish between “all or nothing.”

Fix is correct in that our society somehow pushes misplaced ‘compassion’ for those facing a very difficult challenge with affirming this choice. As I’ve said, we would never affirm other self destructive abnormal behavior as “this is the way God made me” yet somehow homosexual behavior is given a ‘pass’ even though both secular and religious sources can document the serious problems associated with homosexual activity.

Can we find some areas of agreement here?

Lisa N

 

[fix]

Lisa N:

yet somehow homosexual behavior is given a ‘pass’ even though both secular and religious sources can document the serious problems associated with homosexual activity.Lisa N

Here is my rant. We tend to use the word good as if it were equal to holy. Only holy people enter heaven. We can be good in the secular sense and not be leading a Christian life. It is as if as long as one does not murder old ladies or rob a bank, one is basically “good” in the eyes of society. This reasoning, IMO, leads to the conclusion that “gays” can be good and loving parents. As if good and loving mean providing food and a kiss on the forehead. What about leading our children to heaven? Is that not the primary job of the parent?

How can one lead their children to heaven if they live a “gay” lifestyle, or contracept, or cheat, or any other sin? Not only is the example bad, but what if we teach our children that homosexual acts are as good as heterosexual acts within marriage? Is teaching them things contrary to the moral law acceptable as long as we make sure they say please and thank you and do not push old people in front of buses?

Just a few thoughts.