COVID 19 Vaccines

[jack63]

There are many ways to look the ethics of these vaccines. At this point I’m not convinced these researchers have a clear grasp of Covid and how people become immune to it. Take my experience…

Today I got my results back from a Covid antibody test. This was a good, expensive and prescribed one. I read up it. It was one of the most accurate antibody tests out there that and they were giving it to medical workers. I had no antibodies. That was the result. I’m baffled!

In February and March I was traveling and spent hours in airports, on planes, even a couple trains, and at several conferences. At one of the conferences there were confirmed Covid cases. In late February I remember somebody in the back of a plane I was on was coughing, sneezing and wheezing like nothing I’d ever heard before. In retrospect that was terrifying. I went to a church event in early March before the world shut down and sat at a table 2ft away from somebody who tested positive for Covid within days. This person’s entire office had tested positive the week before this person…I probably didn’t give it to them. The thing is I must have been exposed to a few thousand people in February and March.

I had what felt like a mild Covid case in late March and much of April…As expected. I had an annoying cough, and even lost my sense of smell and taste for a few days. Never had lost my sense of taste and smell before. That was strange. If the world hadn’t been in crisis I might not have even noticed the cough…probably would have noticed the loss of taste and smell though. I tried getting a Covid test in early April, but I’m too young, wasn’t running a fever, and I’m not a medical worker.

The thing is that after all of this…”I have no antibodies!” What is going on!? Are none of these antibody tests accurate? I’ve been reading about T-cells and how they give some level of immunity to some people. Was I one of those people? Do these antibodies go away within months? If this is the case what is the point of a vaccine…especially a rushed one that may have problems. If some people have some level of immunity, why would everybody need to be vaccinated? Is this vaccine research even going after the right way to immunize people?

I think we’re in for a mess over the next few years with Covid and vaccines. Good research takes time, and these scientists rushing vaccines don’t have time to do good research.

Sigh…thanks for reading

 

[Anrakyr]

Do these antibodies go away within months?

They decrease in number but not efficiency.

Good research takes time, and these scientists rushing vaccines don’t have time to do good research.

We have a virus that’s transmission is high and CDC says the US only got down to 8.6% fatality. The hospitals are busting at the seems.

They can’t move fast enough.

 

[RuthAnne]

An three more “NaturalNews” articles. In other words, not a single respectable authoritative citation!

I don’t trust NaturalNews. I don’t think it is very well researched. It’s a notch above the left-wing sources, but that’s not saying much.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

An three more “NaturalNews” articles. In other words, not a single respectable authoritative citation!

I don’t trust NaturalNews. I don’t think it is very well researched. It’s a notch above the left-wing sources, but that’s not saying much.

I don’t recall any specifically left-wing sources being cited here.

 

[RuthAnne]

I was only pointing out how low the bar is set.

 

[jack63]

They can’t move fast enough.

Perhaps…I’m not debating that. I just think the US needs to learn to look at solutions for the Covid-19 virus as a choice between “lesser evils”. My concern is that that the expectations for this vaccine will be too high.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-astrazeneca-results-vaccine-liability/astrazeneca-to-be-exempt-from-coronavirus-vaccine-liability-claims-in-most-countries-idUKKCN24V2EN?edition-redirect=uk

This doesn’t give me the warm and fuzzies. From the article (emphasis mine):

With 25 companies testing their vaccine candidates on humans and getting ready to immunise hundred millions of people once the products are shown to work, the question of who pays for any claims for damages in case of side effects has been a tricky point in supply negotiations.

“This is a unique situation where we as a company simply cannot take the risk if in … four years the vaccine is showing side effects,” Ruud Dobber, a member of Astra’s senior executive team, told Reuters.

“In the contracts we have in place, we are asking for indemnification. For most countries it is acceptable to take that risk on their shoulders because it is in their national interest,” he said, adding that Astra and regulators were making safety and tolerability a top priority.

Dobber would not name the countries.

From Zero Hedge’s commentary, there is this tidbit (emphasis mine):

With AstraZeneca, and many US big pharma companies rushing COVID-19 vaccines to market with governments granting them immunity if the vaccine has side effects, all suggest corporate elites and government regulators have very little faith in these drugs.

For more color on leading vaccines in development that produce “severe” side effects, read our latest piece titled “Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine Induced Adverse Reactions In “More Than Half” Of Trial Participants.”

Maybe these rushed vaccines are more for optics, get consumers back into airplanes, hotels, resorts, and malls.

The major red flag is how governments are allowing big pharma to rush experimental vaccines, with no legal recourse if something goes terribly wrong.

Put this together with the the discussion of immunity without antibodies that we know exists, but still poorly understood. But illustrated very well by @jack63 above. I’m acquainted with a nurse who works in the local hospital, she is saying there are several nurses and doctors in her situation that is like jack’s situation, only worse: they’ve all been exposed at least a dozen times if not more. They never test positive for the disease, they never test positive for antibodies, they’ve all taken both tests multiple times, yet they never get sick. So the immunity is there and the fact that it is not well understood how this is happening does not mean it is nonexistent as many insist.

continued next post

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

continued from previous post

But the Covid-19 vaccines are being rushed past all considerations of safety, pre-existing immunity via antibodies and other means, and side effects. Yet pro Covid-19 vaccine supporters are still wondering why such suspicion exists. It exists because there has been a historic lack of transparency on the part of the vaccine establishment.

I wonder how much news of negative side effects will be suppressed as it is today for childhood vaccines.

I’m mostly pro vaccine, but I strongly prefer vaccines with long test cycles, long histories and well understood effects. Along with informed choices to accept or reject vaccines. For instance, I accepted a tetanus shot recently, but I won’t do flu vaccines as I have had trouble with those. But the coming vaccines have none of these gates to retard their progress.

I won’t be in the first few rounds. I’ll be watching closely for news of side effects.

 

[Rau]

…I strongly prefer vaccines with long test cycles, long histories and well understood effects.

Well, who wouldn’t? But given the immediate and severe medical condition - look no further than the rate of Covid-19 deaths in the US - is it any wonder there is pressure to hasten the process? Hopefully the right balance is struck.

 

[jack63]

Put this together with the the discussion of immunity without antibodies that we know exists, but still poorly understood. But illustrated very well by @jack63 above. I’m acquainted with a nurse who works in the local hospital, she is saying there are several nurses and doctors in her situation that is like jack’s situation, only worse: they’ve all been exposed at least a dozen times if not more. They never test positive for the disease, they never test positive for antibodies, they’ve all taken both tests multiple times, yet they never get sick.

This is exactly what the clinician who prescribed this antibody test told me might happened. She told me she had been exposed several times, but never got sick. She was rather frustrated.

 

[Rau]

She told me she had been exposed several times, but never got sick.

I’m unclear what conclusion you draw from this.

 

[jack63]

jack63:

She told me she had been exposed several times, but never got sick.

I’m unclear what conclusion you draw from this.

People have immunity that is not well understood and may not be based on the traditional antibodies that vaccines produce.

 

[Rau]

People have immunity that is not well understood and may not be based on the traditional antibodies that vaccines produce.

With 160,000 people killed so far in the US and growing at 1500 per day, I can understand a focus on the established process for vaccine development. Certainly it would be desirable for researchers to also try and explain why some who should have become ill did not.

 

[Pattylt]

I know there are several theories floating around but no proof yet on what’s happening with Covid.

Viral load. Each person likely has a viral load amount that determines if and how severely they get infected. They don’t know what that load is nor the amount each individual can handle.

Slight immunity due to previous corona virus family. There might be some, a little or a lot if a person has previously had another corona family virus. T-cells carry our long term immunity. They lay around in wait to recognize their specific protein again to start kicking out antibodies…that may cross react with Covid19.

Something else…several ideas probably fall in here and are low on the probability scale. The virus has mutated. Some mysterious natural immunity separate from previous corona family viruses. Vitamin D and/or zinc levels. Antibodies just rapidly dropping in some people. Aliens from outer space…

We are in a race with time. Time needed to safely develop a vaccine and study the virus to understand it more and time until we get exposed and hopefully have a mild case and develop some type of immunity or get deathly ill and die. The good news is that we are getting much better at treating it!

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

That there is at least one form of immunity that isn’t related to antibodies should not be in doubt. Numerous closed environments since February have shown us that this is happening. NY has stabilized very far short of what would be considered herd immunity under other circumstances. That there is considerable disagreement on what that is does not in any way mean that it does not exist. There is definitely something there.

That this something is not well understood yet vaccines have been rushed betrays a possible lack of understanding of how non-antibody forms of immunity might work and of how that might be affected by vaccines. My take is that people with this immunity may not need the vaccine. But there doesn’t seem to be any attempt to screen them for that. The mindset is everyone must get the shot, and I am not comfortable with that or with the speed with which this is being brought to production use.

 

[Rau]

NY has stabilized very far short of what would be considered herd immunity under other circumstances.

Many countries or regions have stabilised and this is attributed to measures they took such as social distancing etc.

vaccines have been rushed betrays a possible lack of understanding of how non-antibody forms of immunity might work and of how that might be affected by vaccines.

Of course there is a rush. See the death toll. That there could be other avenues of investigation is not reason to slow down on the established paths of vaccine development. But yes, all avenues should be examined.

The mindset is everyone must get the shot, and I am not comfortable with that or with the speed with which this is being brought to production use.

The accelerated process does create a dilemma. I think I read somewhere that the quickest vaccine developments in the past have been around 5 years.

In some jurisdictions and in some contexts (eg. childcare), having your child vaccinated may be a pre-requisite for various kinds of government financial support. So arm-twisting is being applied. That becomes harder to do when the safety assurances are weaker due to speed of development.

 

[otjm]

Many countries or regions have stabilized and this is attributed to measures they took such as social distancing etc.

There also is some information that some countries may have been infected with a less contagious version of the virus, and the US may have a far more contagious version of it.

I think I read somewhere that the quickest vaccine developments in the past have been around 5 years.

That would not be particularly odd, given that in most instances, the vaccines were not being created to treat a pandemic. This virus seems to move around somewhat akin to :greased lightning. It is far more contagious that was thought even 6 weeks ago; the more testing and the more people found infected has gone up exponentially.

 

[Rau]

There also is some information that some countries may have been infected with a less contagious version of the virus, and the US may have a far more contagious version of it.

I’ve not seen that - do you have a link to a good source? From what I’ve seen, the virus will spread very rapidly (in any country) absent effective precautions. Eg. Australia suppressed the spread effectively nation-wide but in the last month or so a very rapid wave of infections flared up in one city. This is being attributed to a flaw in quarantine management - not a more aggressive virus variant.

 

[otjm]

I came across the information today, and did not tag it. It appeared to be something more than just a whimsy, but given the flow of information, it is a bit like drinking out of a fire hose.

It noted that the virus appeared to be less contagious in Asian countries, but did not sort by name.

And I have heard both that the virus has mutated rapidly, and that it does not appear to mutate rapidly, so you can pick your poison out of that as to Australia; it could be either or even both.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

NY has stabilized very far short of what would be considered herd immunity under other circumstances.

There is no reason to jump to the conclusion that this is due to some inherent immunity that New Yorkers have, when a more obvious reason is the slow and measured way in which New York opened up the state, and the way they continue to have strict social distancing regulations and public compliance, together with aggressive testing and contact tracing.

lack of understanding of how non-antibody forms of immunity might work and of how that might be affected by vaccines.

“Lack of understanding” does not mean “zero understanding”. It looks like you are building a case based on doubt.

My take is that people with this immunity may not need the vaccine.

We have yet to establish such people exist (they might!) much less any means of identifying them in a screening process to determine who does not need the vaccine.

People have immunity that is not well understood and may not be based on the traditional antibodies that vaccines produce.

Another jump to conclusion that is not warranted. The clinician who didn’t get sick after repeated exposures might not have been really exposed in the sense that the virus entered the body. All she really knows is that she had occasions where virus could have entered her body. She might have just been lucky that the ventilation system was blowing the air just right to avoid her breathing in virus. The only way to prove immunity is to inject virus into the bloodstream, which of course is unethical.