COVID 19 Vaccines

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LeafByNiggle said:
There is no reason to jump to the conclusion that this is due to some inherent immunity that New Yorkers have, when a more obvious reason is the slow and measured way in which New York opened up the state, and the way they continue to have strict social distancing regulations and public compliance, together with aggressive testing and contact tracing.
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LeafByNiggle said:
Another jump to conclusion that is not warranted. The clinician who didn’t get sick after repeated exposures might not have been really exposed in the sense that the virus entered the body. All she really knows is that she had occasions where virus could have entered her body. She might have just been lucky that the ventilation system was blowing the air just right to avoid her breathing in virus. The only way to prove immunity is to inject virus into the bloodstream, which of course is unethical.
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Luck? Really. You actually think that … how unscientific.

So there is no such thing as immunity not conferred by antibodies in the face of evidence that clearly contradicts you? The fact that science doesn’t have the answer as to what immune mechanism in the body is causing the person to not get infected when exposed does not mean it is not happening.

Given the number of confirmed infected cases and given that the CDC has admitted that the actual infected count may be around 10 times the number of confirmed cases, there are likely to be millions of instances where people came into sufficient contact with an infected person throwing off viral loads, yet never got sick.

There are many areas around the country that are doing as much as NY is doing if not more. Yet they have cases on the rise and you are all over those. When you refuse to take into account that the number of times we have yet to see the virus infect significantly more than 25% of a closed area or region. This has happened repeatedly. It’s been six months since the Diamond Princess off Yokohama first demonstrated this to us. Supplemented by the USS Roosevelt. Now NY’s cases times ten is very slowly approaching that 25% threshold. If there was no immunity at all as you posit, NY should still be in trouble, but it’s not. How many more examples do you need? If you can find a counterexample, link please.

According to you, this is nothing but social distancing and masking. With zero explanation why states that are mandating social distancing and masking like NY are still experiencing rising cases while NY hasn’t done so in months despite the presence of protesters not practicing social distancing on a daily basis for weeks following Floyd’s death. Which was really not part of NY’s reopening plan, was it?

You can compare NY’s social distancing policies with other states here:


You’ll notice that NY isn’t at all special. The difference is that NY had many more infected per capita than everyone else. FL is catching up with NY in cases per capita, hence it should not surprise anyone that FL’s cases are slowing now.
 
Zzyzx_Road said:
Luck? Really. You actually think that … how unscientific.
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It is unscientific to assume a cause for an anecdote.
So there is no such thing as immunity not conferred by antibodies in the face of evidence that clearly contradicts you?
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There may be such a thing. The evidence does not establish it yet, except maybe for a very few.
The fact that science doesn’t have the answer as to what immune mechanism in the body is causing the person to not get infected when exposed does not mean it is not happening.
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I didn’t say it is not happening. I said we don’t know it for a fact yet.
Given the number of confirmed infected cases and given that the CDC has admitted that the actual infected count may be around 10 times the number of confirmed cases, there are likely to be millions of instances where people came into sufficient contact with an infected person throwing off viral loads, yet never got sick.
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Oh, we have known for a long time that different people have vastly different reactions to becoming infected. That is not the same thing as being immune to the infection.
There are many areas around the country that are doing as much as NY is doing if not more.
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There are too many variable between locations to draw conclusions like that.
According to you, this is nothing but social distancing and masking.
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There is nothing else that the general public can do. I don’t know what you mean by “there is nothing but…”.
With zero explanation why states that are mandating social distancing and masking like NY are still experiencing rising cases while NY hasn’t done so in months despite the presence of protesters not practicing social distancing…
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Two things about protesters. One is most of them were outdoors where the virus does not spread as easily and sunlight kills the virus in a minute. The other is the number of protesters is too small to compare to the vastly larger group of people gathering at bars, restaurants, house parties, all sorts of social gatherings. You might see a few more cases among the protesters, but after you add in the rest of the state, any such rise is lost in the noise.
 
otjm said:
The NCBC artilce in the first post is part of the conversation; the other part of the conversation is the moral issue of receiving a vaccine which is involved in fetal tissue application.

The NCBC has also spoken on this:

Kresta in the Afternoon: Father Tad Answers Questions about COVID-19 Vaccines — The National Catholic Bioethics Center

I post it lest the discussion stop with the first posted article.
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For those who haven’t listened to the NCBC item referred to in this post I believe it well worth your time. Great link! Thanks.
 
Rau said:
I sense a reluctance to share…
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It’s pretty much their MO. Make claim, get asked how they came to such a conclusion, say “research”, then when asked for said research start speaking in code. That normally means A) they have none or B) they know their “research” sources are sketchy at best and they don’t want to defend them or they know it will be really…really difficult to do so.
 
TC3033 said:
It’s pretty much their MO. Make claim, get asked how they came to such a conclusion, say “research”, then when asked for said research start speaking in code.
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In some cases, the anti-vaccine stance is accompanied by a suspicion of authority and government and a fierce belief in the primacy of various assumed personal rights. Makes me think these latter matters are the basis of the anti-vaccine stance - since it’s pretty hard to get there any other way.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
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jack63:
People have immunity that is not well understood and may not be based on the traditional antibodies that vaccines produce.
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Another jump to conclusion that is not warranted.
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The magazine below cites two articles in Nature from July studying Covid immunity based on T-cells generated from the common cold. This isn’t coming from articles discussing Alien :alien: DNA.

www.the-scientist.com

Does the Common Cold Protect You from COVID-19?

There are emerging signs that some people might have heightened protection against SARS-CoV-2, perhaps thanks to recent infection by other coronaviruses.
www.the-scientist.com www.the-scientist.com
 
jack63 said:
The magazine below cites two articles in Nature from July studying Covid immunity based on T-cells generated from the common cold.
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It looks credible. I don’t have anything to say against the article. It is notable that the response to covid-19 is hypothesized to be from a recent infection of another coronavirus, such as the common cold. I emphasize recent because that would not support the conclusion that large groups of people are permanently immune to covid-19, which is how the result is being applied by some in this thread. The author of the article also says “it is still just a hypothesis”. But thank you for the article. The fact that they are finding various ways of stimulating a covid-fighting response is encouraging in the search for vaccines.
 
For whatever it is worth - or not worth -: A report in Cell, an influential journal in the scientific world comes a report out of Los Alamos Laboratory covering whether a particular mutation of the virus increases its transmission rate. Of particular concern is the G614 mutation on the spike protein, which is the protein responsible for invading host cells.

The authors contend that this mutation began spreading in Europe in February and began displacing the D614 form that originated in Wuhan China.

According to the study, this variant possesses a higher transmission rate, results in a higher viral load, and consistently becomes the dominant form of the virus wherever it spreads.
 
Rau said:
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TC3033:
It’s pretty much their MO. Make claim, get asked how they came to such a conclusion, say “research”, then when asked for said research start speaking in code.
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In some cases, the anti-vaccine stance is accompanied by a suspicion of authority and government and a fierce belief in the primacy of various assumed personal rights. Makes me think these latter matters are the basis of the anti-vaccine stance - since it’s pretty hard to get there any other way.
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I remember when it was just Jenny McCarthy and her book.
 
TC3033 said:
It’s pretty much their MO. Make claim,
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This is in reference to my posts.

I have made no claims.
TC3033 said:
That normally means A) they have none or B) they know their “research” sources are sketchy at best and they don’t want to defend them or they know it will be really…really difficult to do so.
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Or C) they aren’t so lazy as to ask you to do their research and are not going to do yours.
 
RuthAnne said:
Or C) they aren’t so lazy as to ask you to do their research and are not going to do yours.
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and C) is the classic cop out (and I would say is the lazy response). If this is in reference to me, I’m far from lazy, especially when it comes to research, finding and reading peer reviewed studies.

I’m not asking anyone to do research for me, or anyone else. The norm is: when someone makes a claim; especially one that flies in the face of modern medicine, cite where this info is coming from. I would think that they have said research and peer reviewed studies at their fingertips and would be at the ready to prove this modern medicine wrong. Also, it’s just good forum etiquette as the discussion can move forward while we all use the same information/studies to discuss.

But hey; the earth is flat, it’s less than 10,000 years old, aliens formed the Grand Canyon and L. Ron Hubbard was onto something. If you don’t believe me, obviously you need to do more research, but I won’t share mine.
 
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TC3033 said:
The norm is: when someone makes a claim;
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Precisely. And I’ve made no claims.
TC3033 said:
But hey; the earth is flat, it’s less than 10,000 years old, aliens formed the Grand Canyon and L. Ron Hubbard was onto something. If you don’t believe me, obviously you need to do more research, but I won’t share mine.
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I’ve studied flat earth theories, the age of the earth and aliens. I’ve read Dianetics. And I wouldn’t ask you to share your research. I’m not lazy like that.
 
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A and B are based on what you call “normal” I’m the last one to claim to be normal. I abjure normal.

B implies that you know what I think. Are you a mind reader?
 
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