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Victoria33
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Right, and basically, I see a harkening back to the days of President Reagan. Like him or not, apparently, people were happy with the direction of the country, more optimistic at the time.
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Victoria33
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Until I hear the Holy Pontiff make an equivalent statement about gluttony and abortion, I will go with the word of the Holy Father.
I don’t know of one time, they mentioned the mortal sin of gluttony. I think that is a pretty appalling statement. A seccession of Popes, probably every one for decades have spoken against abortion.
So, that means it is important.
I don’t know of one time, they mentioned the mortal sin of gluttony. I think that is a pretty appalling statement. A seccession of Popes, probably every one for decades have spoken against abortion.
So, that means it is important.
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pnewton
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I am? Did you not notice the question marks, or read what I wrote. Saying that the definition of “great” is important is not forcing a definition. It is the very lack of definition that is problematic.
That is why I was clear I was only addressing the question, that of the actual slogan. Of course leaders have responsibility to citizens, just like a baker has a responsibility to bake the bread. The question was about Catholic (us, not leaders) and the response to MAGA.
Yes, and no. Abortion is intrinsically evil. However, I do not know what you mean by “singled out” then using “an”. It is not the only intrinsic evil, nor is intrinsic evil the only evil. The one quote I remember from the Pope Francis on this was when he said:
“I have never understood the expression non-negotiable values. Values are values, and that is it. I can’t say that, of the fingers of a hand, there is one less useful than the rest. Whereby I do not understand in what sense there may be negotiable values.”
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Gary1961
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So many responses! Thank you one and all. I’d like to re-emphasize my intent was not to stir up political rants and diatribes. To those who have responded with such, I’m afraid you’ve missed my point.
To The Bard who asked what I meant by ‘rhetorical’ questions. I mean that I’m not assuming they are or are not aligning themselves with a given issue. The question was 'do they really know what MAGA means or stands for?" I wish I could believe it was an innocent teenager wanting a souvenir which would be the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is they are getting swept up into something huge that they don’t totally understand. The real question then becomes are they being taught to think for themselves or just go along with Maga because it’s associated with Trump and Trump is associated with pro-life because he appointed a conservative judge. In a country as deeply divided as ours is, I think this becomes a crucial point and I believe Bishop Stowe makes some very strong points. And as several respondents pointed out, both sides of the media paint very skewed pictures and cannot be trusted which makes the ability to think independently all the more important.
Dr Meinheimer, I’m afraid I have no idea what your point(s) is/are.
I believe @Genisis315 was on the right track as to what I was hoping to discuss. “The Catholic Church is not to be identified with any political organization or movement. But Catholics themselves–the laity in particular–are called to participate in the political process and if they believe a particular politician’s or political movement’s policies will better serve the common good than another’s, they are free to support it.”
This brings up my question of ‘where do you draw the line’? I bring this up because our country is obviously severely divided (as is our church). As the far right goes farther right (to the point where some compare it to totalitarian regimes); and as the far left goes farther left (to where some Democrats are openly describing themselves as ‘socialist democrats’), it seems to me they both are coming ‘full circle’ to the point that they both agree bigger government will take care of us and any religious beliefs are to be suppressed. That is where the laity are called to participate in the political process and they better know what the issues really are rather than blindly follow the left or right media.
First question: Are kids today taught to think for themselves and not blindly follow left/right media (or simply think a MAGA hat is a cool souvenir that doesn’t really mean anything)? My personal bias would be to answer no. I sure hope I am wrong!
Second question: “Where do you draw the line?” This was meant to spark reasonable, meaningful discussion (and hopefully get us to turn to higher authorities and power for answers) rather than ruthlessly holding to black and white answers based on our own personal bias to very complicated questions that divide us.
To The Bard who asked what I meant by ‘rhetorical’ questions. I mean that I’m not assuming they are or are not aligning themselves with a given issue. The question was 'do they really know what MAGA means or stands for?" I wish I could believe it was an innocent teenager wanting a souvenir which would be the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is they are getting swept up into something huge that they don’t totally understand. The real question then becomes are they being taught to think for themselves or just go along with Maga because it’s associated with Trump and Trump is associated with pro-life because he appointed a conservative judge. In a country as deeply divided as ours is, I think this becomes a crucial point and I believe Bishop Stowe makes some very strong points. And as several respondents pointed out, both sides of the media paint very skewed pictures and cannot be trusted which makes the ability to think independently all the more important.
Dr Meinheimer, I’m afraid I have no idea what your point(s) is/are.
I believe @Genisis315 was on the right track as to what I was hoping to discuss. “The Catholic Church is not to be identified with any political organization or movement. But Catholics themselves–the laity in particular–are called to participate in the political process and if they believe a particular politician’s or political movement’s policies will better serve the common good than another’s, they are free to support it.”
This brings up my question of ‘where do you draw the line’? I bring this up because our country is obviously severely divided (as is our church). As the far right goes farther right (to the point where some compare it to totalitarian regimes); and as the far left goes farther left (to where some Democrats are openly describing themselves as ‘socialist democrats’), it seems to me they both are coming ‘full circle’ to the point that they both agree bigger government will take care of us and any religious beliefs are to be suppressed. That is where the laity are called to participate in the political process and they better know what the issues really are rather than blindly follow the left or right media.
First question: Are kids today taught to think for themselves and not blindly follow left/right media (or simply think a MAGA hat is a cool souvenir that doesn’t really mean anything)? My personal bias would be to answer no. I sure hope I am wrong!
Second question: “Where do you draw the line?” This was meant to spark reasonable, meaningful discussion (and hopefully get us to turn to higher authorities and power for answers) rather than ruthlessly holding to black and white answers based on our own personal bias to very complicated questions that divide us.
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Gary1961
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Nothing is wrong with making America great again. The question is how and by what means?
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Gary1961
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Aligned: being in agreement with or supportive of.
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Gary1961
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True, the Catholic church is not and should not be aligned with any political organization. Do you really believe that the church shouldn’t be aligned with an ideology… an ideology that life is sacred? an ideology that we should treat others as we would like to be treated? Do you really think a Catholic church should stand idly by while citizens in their country are oppressed by totalitarian dictators? If you think everyone must make up their own minds on how to apply the faith, why have a Catholic church to begin with? Just pick any protestant church on any street corner. Better yet, start your own.
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Gary1961
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Uhm… I did ask “do they really know and understand what that means?”
Why are you assuming what I mean and yet, telling me I am not free to assume what people mean?
Why are you assuming what I mean and yet, telling me I am not free to assume what people mean?
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TheBard
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Some shall be pardoned, and some punished.
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Victoria33
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I believe the Trump administration has displayed more Christian charity than people give him credit for.
Immigrants have been kidnapped in Northern Mexico and forced to fight gladiator style each other and for entertainment by cartels in Mexico.
Successive popes have reiterated certain issues. Not only do I believe the President has acted with Christian values but those are on more display than with those who accuse him of unkind matters. There is de facto support of the wrongs immigrants go through with open borders. Also, more faithful to Catholic teaching than those trying to compare such things as gluttony to the pro-life cause. In fact, this smacks to me as a very poor adherence to Catholic teaching and almost seems irreverent to say such.
Immigrants have been kidnapped in Northern Mexico and forced to fight gladiator style each other and for entertainment by cartels in Mexico.
Successive popes have reiterated certain issues. Not only do I believe the President has acted with Christian values but those are on more display than with those who accuse him of unkind matters. There is de facto support of the wrongs immigrants go through with open borders. Also, more faithful to Catholic teaching than those trying to compare such things as gluttony to the pro-life cause. In fact, this smacks to me as a very poor adherence to Catholic teaching and almost seems irreverent to say such.
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Joe_5859
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Aren’t all campaign slogans kind of predicated upon that, though? Obama’s slogans were all about changing to something new and better. Trump’s was about changing to something old and better.
Every politician campaigns on changing to something better because many people are not satisfied with where they are at or where things are in general.
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gracepoole
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I think the context of this part of the conversation has gotten lost. I initially responded to this:
I pointed out that maybe those who have branded MAGA as racist are those who have co-opted the slogan and president for their own purposes. This doesn’t mean that all conservatives are racists. It means a select few racists have perverted the president’s slogan for their own gain. This point really has nothing to do with Trump voters or supporters but instead was a nod to the bigots in our communities who have gone rogue when interpreting Trump and his slogan.
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gracepoole
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I generally agree with you, although I just saw that Trump’s 2020 slogan is “Keeping America Great.” So I suppose it matters whether someone is challenging an incumbent or the policies of a previous administration or whether someone is trying to keep his job.pnewton:
Aren’t all campaign slogans kind of predicated upon that, though? Obama’s slogans were all about changing to something new and better. Trump’s was about changing to something old and better.
Every politician campaigns on changing to something better because many people are not satisfied with where they are at or where things are in general.
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Joe_5859
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Good point. The incumbent does want to make it look like he/she has been following through on their initial campaign promises. 
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gracepoole
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I don’t want to beat a dead horse here. And it’s clear that you believe it’s important to vote for Trump because he claims to be pro-life. That’s fine. But when other Catholics determine that being pro-life is about more than appointing pro-life SCOTUS justices, for example, it doesn’t seem fair to tell them they’re wrong. At least not any more than it would be fair for them to tell you you’re wrong for determining how to cast your vote.
A religious on this forum in 2016 explained that he couldn’t vote for Trump because Trump was open to using nuclear weapons, for example, which could be catastrophic for human life and would not be aligned with the Church’s just war teachings. That was reasonable for him to say. Others disagreed, some agreed, but none could say that the Church would have chastised him for his consequent decision not to vote for Trump.
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Paytheon
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Here’s what comes to my mind after reading your post; your a Trump hater who watches to much bias fake news. Here’s my recommendation, concern yourself with living up to the New Covenant standards which requires us all to believe in Christ, love one another as Christ loves you, repent, be obedient, and forgive.
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Joe_5859
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Be careful with aligning too closely a person’s opinion of Trump with their level of adherence to the Gospel and the Christian faith. I’m happy with the decisions Trump has made in support of pro-life causes, and I’m happy for the general reprieve from the assault on religious liberty, but I wouldn’t say I like or trust the guy.
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Cruciferi
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Or all of Congress for that matter…
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pnewton
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Slogan’s are about salesmanship. Sometimes they backfire. “Great again” and “proud of America for the first time in my adult life,” is different that just “Make America Great” or “Hope and Change.” MAGA backfires with me. I was patriotic before, when Trump’s idea was that America was not a great country, and before Michelle Obama had reason to be proud. Again, I am just addressing the MAGA slogan.
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pnewton
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LOL, I won’t compare evils between Trump and the cartels and treatment of immigrants, but stick to the slogan. Trump’s job is to serve the American people, that much is true. But it isn’t only to give American’s stuff. We can have all the stuff we can stand and still go to Hell. For Catholics, what makes America great is charity, that is focus on others. Nationalism is opposed to this. Patriotism recognizes all those in other countries as equal in love of their country. There is a “Catholic” difference between wanting to be the best one can be, and wanting to be number one; patriotism vs. nationalism.
This may be reading too much into MAGA, but this is just my opinion.
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