Gay Christians, controversial nun among those set to greet Pope Francis

[ComplineSanFran]

The Vatican would disagree.

democracynow.org/2012/4/27/us_nuns_face_vatican_crackdown_for

The citation you have is from 2012. The report was concluded this past year, and quite favorably for the Women Religious.

religionnews.com/2015/04/16/vatican-ends-controversial-investigation-u-s-nuns-olive-branch/

A nice quote from the head of LCWR, Sr Sharon Holland: 'Through these exchanges, conducted always in a spirit of prayer and mutual respect, we were brought to deeper understandings of one another’s experiences, roles, responsibilities, and hopes for the Church and the people it serves. We learned that what we hold in common is much greater than any of our differences.”

I noticed, too, that there was a lovely quote from the Pope the other day, saying that women religious - like Sr Simone Campbell - are on the front lines.

‘Calling himself “a bit feminist,” Pope Francis praised women religious for always heading to the “front lines” to bring the church’s tenderness and motherly love to those most in need.’

catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2015/pope-says-he-is-a-bit-feminist-thanks-women-religious.cfm

 

[KSU]

EmperorNapoleon, I hope you get your way and Pope Francis treats anti-Catholic activist sinners at the White House the way you want him to; i.e., the way Jesus treated public sinners.

That would require Francis to admonish them and tell them to go and sin no more. I can hear the squeals of outrage now. The media would explode with howls of protest, Obama and his Party of Death would boycott the Pope’s appearance at Congress, and the homosexual activists would have a hissy fit tantrum that would continue for years.

I can dream, can’t I ?

 

[sarah_j]

The citation you have is from 2012. The report was concluded this past year, and quite favorably for the Women Religious.

The report was concluded with the nuns making concessions to the Vatican.
If you want to find articles which spin that as ending “quite favorably” toward the sisters, have at it.

"A six-year row between activist American nuns and Vatican officials who had branded them radical feminists ended on Thursday with the nuns conceding to demands that they keep within the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church…

While the final statement was at times conciliatory, speaking of “mutually beneficial” and “fruitful” conversations between the two sides, it included clear concessions."

reuters.com/article/2015/04/16/us-vatican-nuns-idUSKBN0N71PZ20150416

 

[Tantum_ergo]

My hope is that Pope Francis continues to embrace and treat with charity and dignity those who the Church has ostracized for so long and admonishes those individuals who wish for the contrary and pine for the return of fire and brimstone theology.

Ostracized? Fire and brimstone?

No, don’t be shy. Tell us what you REALLY think of millions of Christians who have tried to live as best they could according to Christ’s teachings over the last 2000 years but who according to your personal view in AD2015 in the Western World somehow ‘ostracized’ and denied THESE people ‘charity and dignity’ while letting every OTHER sinful behavior get a ‘pass.’

And tell us how Pope Benedict, Pope St John Paul, Pope Paul VI, Pope John XXIII, Pius XII, Pius XI, etc. etc. taught/encouraged Christians to ‘ostracize’ people based on nonsinful behavior and only ever taught that sinful people should suffer fire and brimstone and NEVER be treated with charity and dignity.

 

[benjamindt]

A few posts back you questioned why it is that non-Catholics should have a voice in the direction of the Catholic Church and the answer to that is a rather simple one. No offense, but the direction as dictated solely by Catholics has led the Church right down the tubes. Hardly any American Catholics attend mass and the vast majority reject the Church’s teaching on a number of issues from contraceptives to homosexuality and beyond. That is the inevitable consequence of pandering to those who already believe in confrontational ways rather than seeking to convert those who do not believe. Its the difference between a message of hatred and a message of love.

You say the Church has not ostracized these people and I, as one of them, say otherwise. Historically those who profess to speak “the truth of Christ” have done so in confrontational ways that are arrogant, insulting, demeaning, denigrating, mean-spirited, and un-Christ like. They may not intentionally ostracize people, though some absolutely do, but their words and deeds have that effect. You’re not going to fill the pews by insulting people and attempting to strip them of their dignity.

If the Church is going to have a future here then it needs to work on its delivery and re-valuate the manner in which it engages people. Pope Francis is accomplishing that. People might not agree with everything the Catholic Church teaches, but Pope Francis treats everyone with dignity and respect so they are willing to listen and that’s a start.

If Catholics refuse to be catholic, it is their fault. There may be some liability on the part of catechists and others, but if someone loves God but hates the Church, they do not really love God.

Filling the pews for the sake of numbers should never be the goal of the Church. In fact, a healthy church may be a smaller church.

If you feel ostracized, I’m sorry, but again, you are the victim of your own decisions. If you choose to leave the church because you didn’t like what some member had to say to you, then what are you really wanting to join? I don’t think people who want to be part of the Church because they think the Church is the Truth would leave because someone wasn’t perfectly wonderful to them. Likewise, those that so easily leave the Church probably never really were there in the first place. People who reject the teachings of the Church love to cite the attitudes of others for their apostasy, but it is just an excuse for themselves so they feel better about it.

To be an apostate of the Church and to blame it on the way others evangelized is like a man who beats his wife saying it was her fault because she didn’t cook the food correctly.

In the end it is about God and Truth. If you think the Catholic Church is the Truth, why would you ever leave it, why would you ever reject its dogmas and doctrines? The simple answer is that it is not the Church most apostates were ever interested in, rather it was something else that had more to do with themselves than God.

Unless you make the claim that a rude evangelizer causes the Church to err, why would you not return and help to make it better? Why run away and blame the Church and demand it fix itself before you grace Her with your return? (I’m not speaking directly to you necessarily)

Honestly, in the end, it’s all a disguise and an excuse to make those who leave feel better. That being said, there is a terrible need to make sure we teach Catholics correctly and show them the right way of handling things. Catholics should love even their enemy, but have no qualms about preaching what is right and wrong. Catholics should never refuse to help anyone who needs it, but that doesn’t mean they should ignore Church teaching or condone sin in order to get the person to allow them to help.

You can’t help someone who doesn’t want it.

 

[808Catholic]

Love the sinner just don’t be seen with them in public, right? Seems to me that this anonymous Vatican source isn’t speaking with the views of Pope Francis in mind and there are bigger problems when some are more concerned with photo ops than the mission of the Catholic Church.

You might be interested in going back over some of the news stories covering Pope Francis’ previous public engagements. He’s had quite a few public engagements where he’s meeting and caring for “sinners.” The Catholic Church does not “do” photo ops.

 

[808Catholic]

A few posts back you questioned why it is that non-Catholics should have a voice in the direction of the Catholic Church and the answer to that is a rather simple one. No offense, but the direction as dictated solely by Catholics has led the Church right down the tubes. Hardly any American Catholics attend mass and the vast majority reject the Church’s teaching on a number of issues from contraceptives to homosexuality and beyond. That is the inevitable consequence of pandering to those who already believe in confrontational ways rather than seeking to convert those who do not believe. Its the difference between a message of hatred and a message of love.

You say the Church has not ostracized these people and I, as one of them, say otherwise. Historically those who profess to speak “the truth of Christ” have done so in confrontational ways that are arrogant, insulting, demeaning, denigrating, mean-spirited, and un-Christ like. They may not intentionally ostracize people, though some absolutely do, but their words and deeds have that effect. You’re not going to fill the pews by insulting people and attempting to strip them of their dignity.

If the Church is going to have a future here then it needs to work on its delivery and re-valuate the manner in which it engages people. Pope Francis is accomplishing that. People might not agree with everything the Catholic Church teaches, but Pope Francis treats everyone with dignity and respect so they are willing to listen and that’s a start.

The Catholic Church is not a democracy and wasn’t set up as one. We are guided by the Holy Spirit and no number of votes against God will change what He wills. We certainly welcome all to explore and learn more about the church that was established by Jesus Christ so they can understand how we’ve withstood 2,000 plus years without changing. We have no fear that the Catholic Church will weather any cultural storm because Jesus prophesied that it would last until He comes again.

 

[808Catholic]

Except for the anonymous Vatican source…and several people here.

Good thing Pope Francis isn’t listening to his detractors; in the Vatican or outside.

 

[808Catholic]

The gathering of people at the White House is NOT going to be a gathering of devout Catholics. Not everyone who will be there will do things in accordance with Catholic teaching. The Pope will be a guest and no one will think that he picked the other guests who have been invited. When I’m invited to someone else’s house for dinner, I don’t demand from the host that everyone else who has been invited agree with me.

The Pope is the main guest; he’s the reason they’re having the dinner and all these people were invited. If I invited a Jewish friend to dinner intending to serve him pulled pork, what type of host would I be?

 

[808Catholic]

Perhaps the White House wanted to bring together representatives of a pluralistic, multi-faceted country to meet the Pope. Bishop Robinson is a person of faith, as is Sister Simone Campbell. My guess is that there are other people in that crowd of 15,000 that represent diverse cultures and stances. This is a GOOD thing. No one is trying to be disrespectful to the Pope. We are who we are and should be proud of that diversity.

thoroflr, thank you for posting Bishop Gene Robinson’s letter. I have known him for years. He is a good man and his letter, I believe, was sincere.

Diversity for diversity sake is not always a good thing. Would you advocate the President inviting a satanist, a witch, a voodoo hougan, etc. as well?

 

[DennyO]

What I’d like to know is - how is it that a pro-abortion activist nun has been allowed to remain in her order ?

Is it fair to categorize Sister Simone Campbell as “pro-abortion”? I don’t think so. Her tactics may be different than others, but this article weeklystandard.com/blogs/catholic-nun-dnc-speaker-simone-campbell-abortion-s-beyond-my-pay-grade_651775.html states she regards abortion as the taking of an innocent life. There are many who believe that abortion cannot be stamped out by legislation, and that its an outcome of poverty and lack of social support.

Personally, I believe that every government prop to abortion should be removed, such as how we see some states will fund abortions out of tax money. I believe that money should instead fund things like prenatal care and the like.

Even the most draconian laws that could be enacted against abortion in today’s America would not be fruitful, no more than the war on drugs has reduced drug use. I wish it were so easy, to think that legislation could do the trick. The reality is that America is divided, and until we get the substantial majority of the public to see it as the evil that it is, laws will be futile. Along that line, the recent revelations about the conduct of Planned Parenthood are having a positive effect.

 

[ARSpade]

Is it fair to categorize Sister Simone Campbell as “pro-abortion”? I don’t think so. Her tactics may be different than others, but this article weeklystandard.com/blogs/catholic-nun-dnc-speaker-simone-campbell-abortion-s-beyond-my-pay-grade_651775.html states she regards abortion as the taking of an innocent life. There are many who believe that abortion cannot be stamped out by legislation, and that its an outcome of poverty and lack of social support.

.

Erm, from the linked article…

TWS: On the legal question, do you think there should be penalties against abortion doctors? I mean, should it be illegal to perform abortions?

CAMPBELL: That’s beyond my pay grade. I don’t know.

So she thinks abortion is the taking of an innocent life, in other words “murder”, but doesn’t know if it should be illegal. Strident defense of life indeed.

In another article (I quoted it somewhere earlier), she stated that she was happy that Obamacare gave women the “choice” regarding abortion. If you’re happy about women having a “choice”, that makes you “pro-choice”.

 

[Latrellc69]

Cutting someone off from the Sacraments is not to be taken lightly! Those who need it the most, should not be denied access to God’s grace.

Also, the Pope is not in charge of religious groups. If there’s a reprimand to be given, it will come from the head of her order not the Vatican.

I believe all these people will witness Christ in Pope Francis. Whether that encounter brings them back to God or not is up to them individually. We are called to plant the seeds; the Holy Spirit will take care of the rest.

Yes. this is true, but you can’t have someone REPENT if they aren’t told they need to. This is what I’m referring to when I say reprimand or ex-communication. None of these things are done without the consideration or the ability to Repent. The ex=communication though, shows the extreme mortal nature of the action, shows how serious the sin is. It is actually an act of Mercy to reprimand or ex-communicate when it is something that serious to the salvation of the person.

 

[808Catholic]

Yes. this is true, but you can’t have someone REPENT if they aren’t told they need to. This is what I’m referring to when I say reprimand or ex-communication. None of these things are done without the consideration or the ability to Repent. The ex=communication though, shows the extreme mortal nature of the action, shows how serious the sin is. It is actually an act of Mercy to reprimand or ex-communicate when it is something that serious to the salvation of the person.

My apologies for my misunderstanding. I agree with you. “Ignorance” ceases to be ignorance once you know.

 

[gnosisofthomas]

Do you feel alienated by the Church or by the people in the Church?

A little bit of both. As a teenager, I didn’t feel it was too difficult to be a gay Catholic. I knew the Catholic Church’s stance on homosexuality, and while I’ve never agreed with the teaching, the Church generally felt pretty comfortable. When Benedict XVI became pope, the Church seemed to change dramatically – I began to notice an almost hateful attitude toward gay people; the attitude of the bishops and the pope himself, many of whom said outright hurtful things, seemed to trickle down to the laity.

I used to attend daily Mass, and often I would stay after to pray the Rosary or the Divine Office. The last time I stepped foot in a Catholic Church was for a weekday service. I was praying my Rosary after Mass, and these two older men were standing in Nave loudly condemning same-sex marriage, which we were voting to legalize in my state at the time. They kept going on about this nation turning into Sodom and Gomorrah, and how disgusting gay people were. I couldn’t even pray my Rosary in peace, so I stopped in the middle of it and left. That was the last straw – I never went back.

As a gay Catholic, I knew I was “called to celibacy”, however in practical terms, that meant the Church was calling me to be alone and miserable for the rest of my life. Holy Orders would never be an option, marriage certainly out of the question. I’d even spent time looking into joining a monastic order, which also proved difficult unless I pretended to be heterosexual. It’s almost as if the Church is telling gay people they have no vocation whatsoever, other than simply being celibate. No one wants to spend their life alone, but gay Catholics really have no choice. What I hope for the Catholic Church, even if homosexuality is never accepted as perfectly normal, is that gay Catholics can at least be made to feel welcome – that there’s a place for them.

I was fortunate enough to find a Church that accepted me, and I’m honored to live my vocation as a deacon now… Something that would never have been possible had I remained a Catholic. I know plenty of gay people who were so hurt by their religion that they have no faith at all; so I suppose in that regard, I was fortunate not to have that happen to me, despite feeling discouraged for quite some time.

 

[ARSpade]

As a gay Catholic, I knew I was “called to celibacy”, however in practical terms, that meant the Church was calling me to be alone and miserable for the rest of my life…No one wants to spend their life alone, but gay Catholics really have no choice.

That doesn’t make any sense, unless you think you need sexual relations to feel validated in life or to feel any kind of closeness to people.

And, really, it probably wouldn’t be that healthy to be that fixated on sex.

 

[gnosisofthomas]

That doesn’t make any sense, unless you think you need sexual relations to feel validated in life or to feel any kind of closeness to people.

And, really, it probably wouldn’t be that healthy to be that fixated on sex.

Well, maybe relationships for Catholics are different, and marriage is all about sex… But for me, sex isn’t the reason I love my boyfriend and hope to get married someday.

Then again, maybe you’re just making the assumption that gay people are fixated on sex, and that that’s the only possible reason we’d ever want to be with someone of the same gender.

 

[HCTC]

_Abyssinia; 13290495:

Vatican Disputes White House Guest List for Papal Visit

Invitations to transgender activists, first openly gay U.S. Episcopal bishop and activist nun to White House event prompt pushback

wsj.com/articles/vatican-…sit-1442533549

---

This story in the WSJ never had a named source and has been refuted by Rev. Thomas Rosica, a priest who works with the Vatican’s press office:

Vatican adviser Father Thomas Rosica said on “Fox News Sunday” that the unnamed source that spoke to the Wall Street Journal, identified as a high-level Vatican official, should “come forward and give their name.”

“If some Vatican officials unnamed have expressed concern, that’s their issue and they should come forward and give their name,” according to a transcript of Rosica’s interview with host Chris Wallace.

Vatican denies LGBT White House invite dispute

washingtonexaminer.com/vatican-denies-lgbt-white-house-invite-dispute/article/2572490

 

[HCTC]

This was a duplicate post. My apologies.

 

[808Catholic]

A little bit of both. As a teenager, I didn’t feel it was too difficult to be a gay Catholic. I knew the Catholic Church’s stance on homosexuality, and while I’ve never agreed with the teaching, the Church generally felt pretty comfortable. When Benedict XVI became pope, the Church seemed to change dramatically – I began to notice an almost hateful attitude toward gay people; the attitude of the bishops and the pope himself, many of whom said outright hurtful things, seemed to trickle down to the laity.

I used to attend daily Mass, and often I would stay after to pray the Rosary or the Divine Office. The last time I stepped foot in a Catholic Church was for a weekday service. I was praying my Rosary after Mass, and these two older men were standing in Nave loudly condemning same-sex marriage, which we were voting to legalize in my state at the time. They kept going on about this nation turning into Sodom and Gomorrah, and how disgusting gay people were. I couldn’t even pray my Rosary in peace, so I stopped in the middle of it and left. That was the last straw – I never went back.

As a gay Catholic, I knew I was “called to celibacy”, however in practical terms, that meant the Church was calling me to be alone and miserable for the rest of my life. Holy Orders would never be an option, marriage certainly out of the question. I’d even spent time looking into joining a monastic order, which also proved difficult unless I pretended to be heterosexual. It’s almost as if the Church is telling gay people they have no vocation whatsoever, other than simply being celibate. No one wants to spend their life alone, but gay Catholics really have no choice. What I hope for the Catholic Church, even if homosexuality is never accepted as perfectly normal, is that gay Catholics can at least be made to feel welcome – that there’s a place for them.

I was fortunate enough to find a Church that accepted me, and I’m honored to live my vocation as a deacon now… Something that would never have been possible had I remained a Catholic. I know plenty of gay people who were so hurt by their religion that they have no faith at all; so I suppose in that regard, I was fortunate not to have that happen to me, despite feeling discouraged for quite some time.

God Bless you for your faithfulness though your path hasn’t been made any easier by Catholics who were not acting as Christians. Sigh. This is the fact of our Church; we are sinners - who seem to prefer pointing out sins of others rather than work on our own in humility. Guilt as charge!

With regards to leading a chaste life: I attend a Catholic men’s program where about 60% of the participants are not currently married. Some are single (never married), some are divorced, and some are widowers. The topic of chastity does come up every now and then and it seem they, like you struggle, with it. My point being, homosexuals are not the only people struggling with chastity in the Catholic Church. Then we have clergy and religious members who’ve sworn a vow of chastity and some people who are in heterosexual relationships but not married (yet.) Even for married people like myself, the conjugal act is not the core of our marriage or relationship. There is a big difference between intimacy and the sex act! From the theological point of view, it’s certainly accurate to say Christians are “intimate” with God but it would be blasphemous to hint the other!

I pray that you continue to find peace and are guided by the Holy Spirit. Trust in God!