Greatest Threat to the Church

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Timothy said:
“You are Peter, and on this rock, I will build by church. And the gates of Hell will not overcome it.”
The Catholic Church
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Rev.3:8-9I know thy works, signifies that the Lord sees all their interiors and exteriors at once. Behold, I have set before thee an open door, signifies that heaven has been opened to those who are in truths derived out of good from the Lord. And no one is able to shut it, signifies that hell does not prevail against them. Because thou hast a little power, signifies because they know that of themselves they are powerless. And hast observed My Word, signifies because they are living in accordance with the precepts of the Lord in His Word. And hast not denied My Name, signifies that they are in the worship of the Lord.
  1. And I will make (dabo) those of the synagogue of Satan, signifies those who are in doctrine are in untruths. Declaring themselves to be Jews, and are not, but do lie, signifies who say that the Church is with them, and yet it is not. Behold I will make them to come and worship at thy feet, signifies that many who are in doctrine are in untruths are going to receive the truths of the New Church. And to know that I have chosen thee, signifies that they are going to see that they are loved and received into heaven by the Lord.
On this rock shall I build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Matt. 16:18.

The Lord said those words after Peter had made the statement that Christ was the Son of the living God (Matt.16:16).

This is the truth which is meant by rock.For a rock throughout the Word means the Lord in respect to Divine truth. Peter means, truth from good.

Harry
 
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Shoshana:
My argument here is not about Gruner nor his ministry but on your questionable ‘discernement’ of words and judgment.

And maybe now, we can continue on reading what is the greatest threat to the Catholic Church…

Blessings,
Shoshana
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Not to mention: argumentum ad hominem, appeal to authority (self-proclaimed), appeal to tradition (age), begging the question, etc., etc.
A lot of logical fallacies for one short statement!

I believe “cafeteria Catholics” are a product of liberalism/modernism. As for dissenters, the Church has always had them, but perhaps we need to ask who are the REAL dissenters today? The teachings of the Church have not changed, although some would have us think so. Those who seek to water-down or change the “deposit of the Faith” are the real dissenters.

I am loyal to the Magisterium and the Pope. I just think the Bishops and the Pope have not provided the strong leadership that is needed to end the abuses and confusion.
 
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Bushwhacker:
Not to mention: argumentum ad hominem, appeal to authority (self-proclaimed), appeal to tradition (age), begging the question, etc., etc.
A lot of logical fallacies for one short statement!

I believe “cafeteria Catholics” are a product of liberalism/modernism. As for dissenters, the Church has always had them, but perhaps we need to ask who are the REAL dissenters today? The teachings of the Church have not changed, although some would have us think so. Those who seek to water-down or change the “deposit of the Faith” are the real dissenters.

I am loyal to the Magisterium and the Pope. I just think the Bishops and the Pope have not provided the strong leadership that is needed to end the abuses and confusion.
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You may believe as you wish, but could you tone down your arrogance please? It would be much appreciated.
Pax,
Marie
 
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Marie:
You may believe as you wish, but could you tone down your arrogance please? It would be much appreciated.
Pax,
Marie
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More ad hominem? You make an unfounded assumption. I will be happy to discuss issues, but am not interested in engaging in personal attacks. I fail to see how pointing out logical fallacies can be construed as “arrogance.” The post by Soshanna was correct in its assesment.
 
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Marie:
You may believe as you wish, but could you tone down your arrogance please? It would be much appreciated.
Pax,
Marie
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I am wondering if perhaps you have not assumed that I am a ‘follower’ of Fr. Gruner. None of my posts state that. However, I HAVE read and studied his website and materials. I will say this, Fr. Gruner and his followers are VERY good at defending him, and they present very good evidence from canon law in support of Fr. Gruner’s position. They do not engage in ad hominem attacks, which seems to be the modus operandi of his opposition. They need to present EVIDENCE, not ad hominem attacks. Fr. Gruner could be the worst person in history, suspended or not suspended, and that has nothing to do, in and of itself, with whether his position on Fatima is true or not.

Whether you see him as a dissenter (or a ‘whiner,’ as you call him), or as a saint, is all beside the point of whether his position on Fatima is true or not. The opinions of various Bishops, Arch-Bishops, or even the Pope, are just that: OPINIONS. Until the Chruch issues a “definitive” statement about Fatima that must be believed by all Catholics, it all remains in the realm of speculation and opinion. And Fr. Gruner is entitled to his opinions, same as you, until the Church defines them (ex-cathedra) as heresy or harmful to the Faith.

What WOULD be arrogance on my part, would be to assume that because you might disagree with me, YOU are arrogant! Since I don’t know you, I have nothing to base that assumption on.
 
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Bushwhacker:
Not to mention: argumentum ad hominem, appeal to authority (self-proclaimed), appeal to tradition (age), begging the question, etc., etc.
A lot of logical fallacies for one short statement!

I believe “cafeteria Catholics” are a product of liberalism/modernism. As for dissenters, the Church has always had them, but perhaps we need to ask who are the REAL dissenters today? The teachings of the Church have not changed, although some would have us think so. Those who seek to water-down or change the “deposit of the Faith” are the real dissenters.

I am loyal to the Magisterium and the Pope. I just think the Bishops and the Pope have not provided the strong leadership that is needed to end the abuses and confusion.
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Clarification:
The above earlier post by me, shown in the quote above, was intended as an AGREEMENT with the assessment made by Shoshana of the earlier post by Marie that she quoted from. I was not saying Shoshana’s post was full of logical fallacies! Hope this clears up what I was trying to express. I apologize if I was not clear enough and anyone misinterpreted what I was trying to say.
 
Bushwhacker said:
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Clarification:
The above earlier post by me, shown in the quote above, was intended as an AGREEMENT with the assessment made by Shoshana of the earlier post by Marie that she quoted from. I was not saying Shoshana’s post was full of logical fallacies! Hope this clears up what I was trying to express. I apologize if I was not clear enough and anyone misinterpreted what I was trying to say.
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No problem Busgwhacker,
This is getting rather amusing and confusing. Shoshana evidently does not know how to use quotes and has a bit of everything thrown in so that one cannot tell who said what at this point. 😃
Now we are all replying to a mix master of thoughts it appears. Oh! Well, such is life on the boards. Threads get so long they begin to get tangled up. She/he quotes a reply I suppose to some other posters reply etc. Without the quotes and reference points confusion reigns. I think I am as confused as you are on it. 😃
 
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Marie:
No problem Busgwhacker,
This is getting rather amusing and confusing. Shoshana evidently does not know how to use quotes and has a bit of everything thrown in so that one cannot tell who said what at this point. 😃
Now we are all replying to a mix master of thoughts it appears. Oh! Well, such is life on the boards. Threads get so long they begin to get tangled up. She/he quotes a reply I suppose to some other posters reply etc. Without the quotes and reference points confusion reigns. I think I am as confused as you are on it. 😃
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Dear me! HELP !!!

Shoshana was quoting an earlier post by you about Fr. Gruner, and she made an assessment of your comments, and I agreed with her assessment, plus pointed out some additional logical fallacies. Certainly none of my posts were meant as a personal attack on anyone. Hope this clears that up.

I would guess from your earlier post about Fr. Gruner, that you view him as a threat to the Church, and that is why you made your comments in this thread. Most likely, we would disagree about Fatima and Fr. Gruner, but as far as I am concerned, we are still brothers and sisters in Christ in spite of any disagreement about Fatima or Fr. Gruner.

God bless,
 
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Bushwhacker:
Dear me! HELP !!!

Shoshana was quoting an earlier post by you about Fr. Gruner, and she made an assessment of your comments, and I agreed with her assessment, plus pointed out some additional logical fallacies. Certainly none of my posts were meant as a personal attack on anyone. Hope this clears that up.

I would guess from your earlier post about Fr. Gruner, that you view him as a threat to the Church, and that is why you made your comments in this thread. Most likely, we would disagree about Fatima and Fr. Gruner, but as far as I am concerned, we are still brothers and sisters in Christ in spite of any disagreement about Fatima or Fr. Gruner.

God bless,
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Actually I really do find it amusing. I was not telling you to tone down your arguments to my post…I did not have a clue about the shoshanna post as I had not even read it.I was refering to the tone I read into your earlier reply to someone else I thought. If it was a reply to me, that is even funnier. 😃 I do have a warped sense of humor. ROFLOL! So, don’t worry about it.

Gave me a giggle! Hope you can get a smile or two out of it also.

Pax,
Marie
 
The attack on life leads the charge for all other ills. Let’s face it, we have allowed the murder of 40+ million innocents for the past 30 years. So many others have said it so much better than I but if we can’t as a society value unborn life, what value will the family have? What value will the union of one man and one woman have if life is removed from the equation? What value will the lives of infirmed or disabled have if life is reduced to its utilitarian value alone? Look at the other choices we were given in this poll. In your own minds create the linkage from the life issue to each of the others. Does not secularism and materialism proceed from the same root, the denial of God as Creator and the participation we enjoy as men and women in the state of matrimony in life’s creation? Obviously, those voting for secularism as the principle threat could be even closer to the truth and since every effect has a cause, perhaps the true cause in this sense is the denial of God. We all must do more, prayer and fasting though maybe not in sack cloth and ashes might be a start…God forgive us!
 
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Marie:
Actually I really do find it amusing. I was not telling you to tone down your arguments to my post…I did not have a clue about the shoshanna post as I had not even read it.I was refering to the tone I read into your earlier reply to someone else I thought. If it was a reply to me, that is even funnier. 😃 I do have a warped sense of humor. ROFLOL! So, don’t worry about it.

Gave me a giggle! Hope you can get a smile or two out of it also.

Pax,
Marie
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Yes, it is definitely a hoot! Then again, I live on a mountaintop with 25 parrots, and am a hermit, so my only companions are birds. I probably communicate better with birds than people! <grin!>

God bless,
 
Just remember the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church, all threats are just that, the Church will never fall, but many church members probably will.
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I’m not trying to complain personally about the people who say this…but, many people do say this when this topic is brought up. What bothers me is how it sounds, I know that Our Lord Jesus will preserve our Church, but it is a shame to see everyone (myself included) just assume things and “brush” the problems off at times. We need to pray all the time (preferably every day) for our church. The threat is definetly the enemy within and any sould lost is one too many. It goes along the same lines as “Leave no man behind!”. I am just hoping that people are not brushing it all of and saying "oh, Jesus will take care of it, we shouldn’t worry about the problems…but really, it is our Church given to us by Jesus and we need to keep it as true as possible. Jesus coming back reminds me of the common problem of a friend leaving a pet fish under your care only to find out when he comes back that it died because you neglected to feed it. In other words, we should all do our part to pray and to help take care of our Church.
 
flick,
I think you can rest assured that those of us who use the phrase are well aware that prayer and sacrifice are a key ingredient of the “Church will never fail, and the gates of hell shall not prevail.”

Those who do not pray don’t care if it fails anyway. In fact they prefer that it would and are not likely to use the phrase. Those who rail against the Bark of Peter should be warned they are in error and those who continue to stand around ringing their hands in utter woa and by so doing, spread disention, dispair and confusion, need to hear that also. So if you don’t mind, I will continue to use the phrase. I have the calluses on my knees to prove my claim. 😉 I am confident enough to continue using it and shall continue to. I am not about to start being of long face, and afraid to proclaim the truth just to suit the crowd who work to pull down my, nor others confidence in Holy Mother Church. I am not about to stop being positive either. 😃
 
I believe the modern movements are going to threaten the Church greatly in the next few years. In my generation, we’re losing faithful to atheism because the existence of a God is not physically possible. To them, miracles are too hard to believe in.
 
Although we call the “isms” different names …nothing seems to be really new. I refer to Revelations chapter 2 and 3. I think alot of what we see in this age and time can be found even back then. For example…the lukewarm and rich and affluent of Laodicea certainly seem to still be present today. And yet the ONE TRUE Church is still present and will be until the end of time I strongly feel that we are called to support true Church teachings and live our lives as good active Catholics like the Church at Philadelphia(REV 3:7-13)

Truth is eternal and does not change.

I believe we should be CAtholic Americans not American Catholics. (or CAtholic Australians or Catholic Europeans etc.)
We are called to influence our culture for the moral end not to let our culture pull us off our path.
May the Peace of Christ be with you.
Diana
 
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Tanais:
What do you think is the greatest threat to our Church in the modern world? I was just curious because I just read an editorial from a priest who says its Secularism. I just wanted to hear other opinions.
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I think the greatest threat is something that isn’t listed, but it’s something you can find in almost any church- Catholic or Protestant- and that is LEGALISM.

We have nothing to fear as far as secularism goes. Really what secularism is, is the separation of church and state taken to its logcial conclusion. The reason we don’t need to fear this is that when religion and gov’t are separated no group is favored or persecuted over the others. Many in America are scared to death of it- 10 Commandments taken down from public buildings, etc- but really… would you prefer that it be ok that a religion reign supreme in the country only to find that Islam or Hinduism or Satanism is now the official state religion? How much longer can America really expect to be a “Christian” nation? I’d feel much more secure knowing my rights as a believer are protected and there isn’t a chance that another state religion will be forced on me.

On the other hand… legalism is deadly. I’ve seen it suck the life out of churches and out of individuals. Let’s stay as far away from it as we can get!!
 
On the other hand… legalism is deadly. I’ve seen it suck the life out of churches and out of individuals. Let’s stay as far away from it as we can get!!
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And may you define “legalism” please…
 
I said “Other”, simply because I would have added “Satan” to the list, and I firmly believe that he’ll use whatever combination of these elements (and any others) he believes will help him destroy the Church.

Peace,
Michael
 
Hello,

It is impossible for there to be any threat to the Church. Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church.

Greg
 
“Other” = The hierarchy. They are not good stewards of the church. The instituion has got people caught up in the politics of promotion and status. The leaders do not have the appropriate focus. The institution has gotten so big, so caught up in the bueracracy of rules, that the basic Christian message has been drowned out in too many cases, in too many places.
 
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