How do we come to know things?

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First of all, sensory (name removed by moderator)ut does not reveal substance or essence. Those are ideas added by the mind to what is sensed.

For example, an image is just a two dimensional map of colors. You may think that a picture definitely shows a dog, but it does not. Your mind or brain interprets the image to say that it shows a dog.

So our sensory (name removed by moderator)uts give us feelings unto which we ascribe substances and essences. There is no guarantee that such substances or essences exist objectively in the location we feel.
There is not only no guarantee that substances or essences exist objectively in the location we feel, they in fact do not insofar as they exist in time. Our perceptions of substances or essences are relative. Picture a baseball game with a batter in the batter’s box. Two persons are observing the game but from significantly differing distances. The batter hits a pitched ball. The observer closest to the batter will not only hear the bat meet the ball sooner than the farther observer, he will see its occurance sooner as well. In this example, the amount of time for visual perception to occur is miniscule, but it is nevertheless real.
 
There is not only no guarantee that substances or essences exist objectively in the location we feel, they in fact do not insofar as they exist in time. Our perceptions of substances or essences are relative. Picture a baseball game with a batter in the batter’s box. Two persons are observing the game but from significantly differing distances. The batter hits a pitched ball. The observer closest to the batter will not only hear the bat meet the ball sooner than the farther observer, he will see its occurance sooner as well. In this example, the amount of time for visual perception to occur is miniscule, but it is nevertheless real.
Blase became an old man waiting for this :D,

Linus2nd
 
In that case, let us address the strictly logical problem here.

First of all, let us define “free.” A person is “free” if he is capable of seeking out a good that attracts him, or he is able to refuse it, at his own discretion.

Clearly, in order for him to seek out that good, he goes from potency (merely desiring it) to act (possessing and enjoying it). He does not, however, go from absolute potency (whatever that means) to act: he is already partly in act, because he exists, he has an intellect and a will capable of desiring, and so on.

In Thomistic terminology, we call the kind of act that exists even before the will has actually done anything “first act;” we call the actual operation of the will (moving from desire to enjoyment) “second act.”

Are we on board up to here?
As we are discussing the ability of some beings to reduce themselves from potency to act, and not freedom, your characterization of “free” will do. We can go ahead. Besides, you don’t use it below.

Notice that everything that is reduced from potency to act, is partly in act already. But what do you want to obtain from that? Why do you think it is relevant to our discussion?
OK, now for the statement in question, which I will present in its entirely, and translate literally:

[D]e potentia autem non potest aliquid reduci in actum, nisi per aliquod ens in actu, sicut calidum in actu, ut ignis, facit lignum, quod est calidum in potentia, esse actu calidum, et per hoc movet et alterat ipsum.

However, a thing cannot be reduced from potency to act, except by some being that is in act; for example, something hot in act, the way that fire makes wood—which is hot in potency—hot in act, and in this way changes and alters it (I, q.2, a.3, corpus).

We could formulate this principle in the following fashion:

If a being has been reduced from potency to act, then it must be reduced by another being that is, itself, in act.

The direction of this hypothetical statement is important. It is clear logical fallacy to affirm the inverse (which I will put in red to show that it is invalid):

If a being is in act, then it must reduce another being from potency to act.

This is a logical fallacy called “affirming the consequent.” In fact, this last statement is neatly false. There are plenty of reasons why something in act might not actually produce its proper effect. For example, to use the example that Aquinas uses, the fire is hot and therefore has the capacity to change and alter wood. But the action of the fire might be impeded: if the wood happens to be on the other side of a brick wall for example, or if the wood is extremely wet.
Absolutely! But I wonder what led you to propose logical fallacies that nobody has used in this thread, just to reject them.
Returning to our wills: all of the will’s actuality ultimately comes from God. We can go up the chain of causes with perfect security, because if a being has been reduced from potency to act, then it was put into act by something that is itself in act. (And actually, this would be an example of the First Way.)**

You use triumphalist expressions like “We can go up the chain of causes with perfect security” when you are doing marketing, not in philosophy; never in philosophy, Imelahn. Besides, I don’t see what was the importance of your saying “…He does not, however, go from absolute potency (whatever that means) to act: he is already partly in act, because he exists, he has an intellect and a will capable of desiring, and so on” above.

You can’t go up the chain of causes with perfect security starting from the free acts of a rational being because this point is what is under discussion right now, and you haven’t offered any argument at all.
lmelahn;13015704:
We cannot, however, run down
that chain of causes using this principle. God is clearly in act, but it does not follow that He will necessarily create something. A rational creature is clearly in act (“first act”), but it does not follow necessarily that it will produce a particular action (“second act”). In both these cases, the action is “optional” because the agent is free.

In other words, there is no contradiction whatsoever between the principle and our freedom.

So, I need to explain the conflict to you.
 
Imelahn:

I have asked you to think not on a free act that might be, but on one which is going on. That should be the right starting point. Then you have decided to imagine several divisions in your actual being in order to make it easier for you to conceive that one of your parts is moved by another, and this by another, and so on, resembling a cascade. But once you reach the fountain in yourself, you decide to reject yourself as the true fountain in favor of your “act-potency-act” axiom, which leads you to conclude on The First Mover. And as this “efficient cause-effect” chain destroys the idea of you as a free agent, you decide to pronounce some words that -in your imagination- will preserve your idea of freedom: God would be producing your actus essendi, and from this act, other acts would be produced “according to your nature”, that is to say, freely. But your nature is in question. Besides, in order to preserve your certainty, you need to forget immediately that the acts in the chain are simultaneous and, therefore, it would be only in your imagination that there is a singularity in the chain (“you”) where a new quality (freedom) arises. Yes!, in your imagination only! because the whole chain, being simultaneous, is produced by God. If there is freedom, it is God’s freedom, not yours.

Let me know if I wasn’t clear enough. At least, I expect you to see that I am not talking about possible free acts, but of on-going acts.
 
Now let’s tackle the more metaphysical problem.

Keep in mind that for Aquinas, essence and actus essendi are not just a mental construct; they are real principles of a substance. But they are principles, not things: entia quibus (beings “by which” a things exists), not entia quae (beings “that” exist).

Note that this new relation—in your parlance—comes to light because Aquinas need a way to explain the existence of the angels: beings without matter, which are, nonetheless, only limited beings.
Undoubtedly St. Thomas thought like you say. It is quite normal. Still those concepts are mental constructs which were the result of an elaborated and uncommon thought process. Those are typical high order relations which we cannot even imagine. Invented to explain the existence of beings of which we have never have had any experience, how could we be able to associate to them any accessible reality?
I can understand that. What is happening is that we are coming to the limits of what our language is capable of expressing, so we have to make very careful use of analogy to avoid illegitimate extrapolations.
If there was any logic in your thoughts when you wrote your post, it certainly was beyond the limits of what your language was capable of expressing. So, you will surely understand that such logic could not go beyond the limits of your mind and remained untold.
The principles of actus essendi and essence are a kind of act and potency, but they are not exactly like the other kinds of acts and potency that we experience more directly. We are dealing, not with the transformation of pre-existing beings, but with creation itself.

I was very careful to say that when God endows a creature with its actus essendi, in the very same act He co-creates the creature’s essence. There is no such thing as actus essendi without essence (at least, not in a creature), and there is no such thing as an essence that is not actuated by an actus essendi.

You see, the only act and potency that we are used to dealing with are pre-existing potencies that are transformed. Creation is not a transformation, and so we have to make the necessary adjustment when we think of actus essendi and essence as act and potency.

The essence does delimit and define the actus essendi, but it is not pre-existing in any way. Indeed, it is the actus essendi that makes it exist at all.
This is very interesting for the phenomenology of relations: When you say that we have to make necessary adjustments to think of “actus essendi and essence as act and potency” the expression “necessary adjustments” makes sense to me. To me it is about a kind of movement that we initiate but don’t complete. How would you characterize that necessary adjustment (and I am not referring to the result but to the process)?
 
That is correct, but I also mentioned that “essence” and “substance” can change slightly in meaning according to the context. Also, keep in mind that Aristotle did not know the real distinction between actus essendi and essence; at least, he did not have a fully developed notion of it. (There are hints that he was on the right track in Metaphysics VI, but it is very schematic.)
I can see, it is a very slight change! It is almost nothing, right!:):)🙂
In part the mixing of terms arises because Aquinas modified, or built on, Aristotle’s theory a bit. So, I propose the following terminology to avoid confusion:
  • essentia ut potentia essendi (essence as potency for being): the original potency that God co-creates together with the actus essendi
  • essentia in actu (essence in act): the essence considered as the principle of the powers and operations of a substance. This is identical with the “substance” that is the potency actualized by the accidents. (The “subiectum” that you like so much :).)
  • The supposit, or the concrete individual, taken as a whole, including all of its compositions and principles.
The last two are also sometimes called “substance,” and it is usually clear from the context what we are referring to. If I am comparing the “substance” to one of its properties or characteristics, then I mean the “essence in act.” If I am saying, “trees are substances and so are stones,” then I mean “supposits,” or individual things taken as concrete wholes.

Also there aren’t two different essences, here, just a single essence considered in two different ways: (1) in its capacity as a potency that receives the act of being, and (2) in its capacity as active principle of operation and passive principle of inherence (essentia in actu).
All these are really interesting high order relations. I think I will dedicate some months in the future to study the motives behind them. If we ask ourselves “What did Aristotle need to explain?”, and compare the answer with the answer to the question “What did St. Thomas need to explain?”, we will have part of the answer. Basically, they had the same reality before them but they were breathing quite different discourses. Can you realize the importance of the systems of relations that inform your mind through language?
 
As we are discussing the ability of some beings to reduce themselves from potency to act, and not freedom, your characterization of “free” will do. We can go ahead. Besides, you don’t use it below.

Notice that everything that is reduced from potency to act, is partly in act already. But what do you want to obtain from that? Why do you think it is relevant to our discussion?
Because it explains how the same power can reduce itself from potency to act.
You use triumphalist expressions like “We can go up the chain of causes with perfect security”
That is not intended to be triumphalistic; I just think it is a safe deduction. You don’t think that we can safely deduce that the given actions (whether free or not is being examined) have a cause?

The inverse, however, is not a safe deduction, and indeed can be demonstrated false by various counterexamples. That is all I meant.
 
Imelahn:

I have asked you to think not on a free act that might be, but on one which is going on. That should be the right starting point. Then you have decided to imagine several divisions in your actual being in order to make it easier for you to conceive that one of your parts is moved by another, and this by another, and so on, resembling a cascade. But once you reach the fountain in yourself, you decide to reject yourself as the true fountain in favor of your “act-potency-act” axiom, which leads you to conclude on The First Mover. And as this “efficient cause-effect” chain destroys the idea of you as a free agent, you decide to pronounce some words that -in your imagination- will preserve your idea of freedom: God would be producing your actus essendi, and from this act, other acts would be produced “according to your nature”, that is to say, freely. But your nature is in question. Besides, in order to preserve your certainty, you need to forget immediately that the acts in the chain are simultaneous and, therefore, it would be only in your imagination that there is a singularity in the chain (“you”) where a new quality (freedom) arises. Yes!, in your imagination only! because the whole chain, being simultaneous, is produced by God. If there is freedom, it is God’s freedom, not yours.

Let me know if I wasn’t clear enough. At least, I expect you to see that I am not talking about possible free acts, but of on-going acts.
I was talking about real, current, acts of the will as well. Nor have I forgotten that the chain is simultaneous. We are in agreement about that much.

There was one statement in particular that I think needs justification:
And as this “efficient cause-effect” chain destroys the idea of you as a free agent,
Why is that? Why can’t an efficient cause produce something (i.e., have an effect) that is, itself, free?
 
Undoubtedly St. Thomas thought like you say. It is quite normal. Still those concepts are mental constructs which were the result of an elaborated and uncommon thought process. Those are typical high order relations which we cannot even imagine. Invented to explain the existence of beings of which we have never have had any experience, how could we be able to associate to them any accessible reality?
I am only describing how Aquinas came up with the idea. In fact, the esse/essentia distinction is also necessary in order to explain the diversity of species of beings, so we could justify it based on principles that are ultimately derived from experience.
<…> This is very interesting for the phenomenology of relations: When you say that we have to make necessary adjustments to think of “actus essendi and essence as act and potency” the expression “necessary adjustments” makes sense to me. To me it is about a kind of movement that we initiate but don’t complete. How would you characterize that necessary adjustment (and I am not referring to the result but to the process)?
The idea is as follows: what is the easiest kind of act-and-potency to understand? The actions, or operation, produced by a supposit. (Like when I get up and walk around, or what have you.) That forms the paradigm on which other act-and-potency paradigms—applied to other kinds of composition—are based.

Hence, we have accident-substance, where accident functions as the “act”*and substance as the “potency.” (Accidents are the perfection and fulfillment of substance.) But you can see that although “accident,” like operation, perfects the potency it is composed with, that there is a difference: namely, accidents are immanent to the supposit, whereas operation is transitive.

So I will permit myself to get a little technical here. We are using a logical technique here called analogy of proportionality. It is the classic analogy, the kind you find in the Millers Analogy Test or on the SAT to test your understanding of vocabulary: As operation perfects the supposit, in a similar way, accident perfects substance. Or, if you like: operation : supposit :: accident : substance.

But by the very fact that we are using analogy, there must be a difference between the two compositions: otherwise, there would be no analogy.

The aspect that is the same, we call the res significata, the thing (understood in the most generic sense possible) that is signified. The aspect that is different, we call the modus significandi (literally “manner of signifying”), the way in which it is signified.

In this case, the res significata is the notion of perfection: both compositions imply a perfection, or fulfillment, of one of the components.

The modus significandi, however, is different. In one case, the perfection is transitive (it has an effect on other beings, or at least on other parts of the same being); in the other case, it is strictly immanent.

Whenever we make an analogy, there is always the same process: affirmation of the res significata found in the previous pair of terms, and denial of the modus significandi found in that previous pair.

I can do a similar thing thing with prime matter and substantial form: the substantial form still perfects the matter, as in the other cases; and like the accident-substance composition, this one is entirely immanent (res significata). However, there are a number of differences: the potential component—the prime matter—is not subsistent; it has no independence without the form; indeed the prime matter is co-created together with the form; the form does not merely perfect the matter, but defines what kind of being that creature is.

Finally, I can do a similar thing with actus essendi and essentia. As with the others, I can affirm (res significata) that the act of being perfects the essence; that (like prime matter with respect to form), the essence is co-created together with the act of being; and that the composition is completely immanent. However, unlike the other act-and-potency pairs (denial of modus significandi), the role of the act of being is to be the source of being for the entire supposit. The essence is a potency, but in no way does it pre-exist before the act of being; rather, the essence’s role is to limit and define the act of being (hence making the creature the kind of being that it is).

So that is the process: you start with the easiest kind of act and potency to understand, and work your way up to the most difficult one, by affirming the appropriate res significanda and denying the modus significandi, as appropriate.
 
I can see, it is a very slight change! It is almost nothing, right!:):)🙂
That is because what is signified is essentially the same thing in each case: the concrete individual. Sometimes we need to consider it as that in which the accidents inhere, or as the principle of operation, or as the potential principal that is brought into being by the actus essendi. At other times, we need to consider the concrete individual as a unified whole: actus essendi, essentia ut potentia essendi, accidents, and everything.
All these are really interesting high order relations. I think I will dedicate some months in the future to study the motives behind them. If we ask ourselves “What did Aristotle need to explain?”, and compare the answer with the answer to the question “What did St. Thomas need to explain?”, we will have part of the answer. Basically, they had the same reality before them but they were breathing quite different discourses. Can you realize the importance of the systems of relations that inform your mind through language?
I am not necessarily in disagreement with this, as a description of how philosophers come up with their theories. We seem to differ as to whether a philosophy can explain things as they really or or not. I rather think it can, although it is difficult. (If I understood you correctly, you would say that the best we can do is a close approximation.)
 
Most people probably believe the culture in which they are raised is the best possible culture, and you were raised in a scientific culture. But perhaps that’s coincidence.

The West didn’t decide slavery was bad until the Industrial Revolution did away with the need for slaves. Perhaps that’s also a coincidence.

Women only started to get treated equally when they were required to keep factories going while the men went off to war. Perhaps that’s another coincidence.

You’ll see where I’m going with this. It’s very difficult to see other moralities and ways of life objectively.
I agree with you, insofar as there are certain fortuitous circumstances that permitted us to emancipate the slaves and see more clearly the need for equality under the law (e.g., with women’s rights and so on).

But I guess I am a little surprised: don’t you think that abolishing slavery was a good thing? That—regardless of how we got there—it was a step forward for mankind?
The OED defines evident as clearly seen or understood; obvious. Our disagreement is over what is clearly understood or obvious. Paul decided that “since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made”. Compare the OED’s “clearly seen or understood” with the NIV’s “clearly seen, being understood”. Paul thinks that not just the observation but also what it demonstrates is evident. But that’s not at all evident to a Buddhist. Or, if you walk for 40 days through the wilderness of the Grand Canyon, it may become evident that all things, the rocks included, are sacred. I think what is clearly understood depends not just of observation but on perspective.
Well, in the more technical, epistemological sense that I am using, God’s “invisibile qualities,” by definition, cannot be evident. Something “evident” needs to be visible (in the broad sense, not necessarily visible through the eyes) directly, It is evident that Mount Etna (I live in Italy) spews forth lava. Where the lava comes from is not evident. You can’t go down to see the opening (and come back alive).

So yes, I am perfectly comfortable in saying that our scientific methods of investigating natural phenomena are superior to what the ancients had available. I much prefer to say that the lava comes from naturally occurring molten rock deep within the earth, than to suppose (without verification) that it is Hephaestus’ forge. I consider that an advancement.
True. But I continue to suspect that the Aristotle + Thomas combo is inordinately complicated only because there are so many holes. 🙂
Well, think about this: how may courses does it take to learn quantum mechanics? Is that because the science is full of holes?
It doesn’t seem that complicated - God can be transcendent without being an abstraction. The problem with trying to make God fit with logic is surely not simply that it makes God less accessible, it restricts who we think God can be, which works against transcendence.
Note that I never said that God is an abstraction, just that He is not like men. He is a good deal better than even the best men. In fact, there couldn’t be anyone more “concrete” than God.
The danger is that if you start from the supposition of man as rational animal, divided from all other species, then the divide becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. We obviously have more going on between our ears but I think there is evidence of a continuum with other social species. For instance, independent.co.uk/news/science/primate-instincts-6148420.html
I don’t begin with the presupposition that man is a rational animal. I begin with the observation that man is capable of running many laps, intellectually speaking, around even the most intelligent non-human primate.

(Although the article you quoted was interesting, it does not show that non-human primates are capable of telling right from wrong, just that they can remember what hurts or helps them.)
 
I was talking about real, current, acts of the will as well. Nor have I forgotten that the chain is simultaneous. We are in agreement about that much.

There was one statement in particular that I think needs justification:

Why is that? Why can’t an efficient cause produce something (i.e., have an effect) that is, itself, free?
Because that efficient cause determines the “cascade”.
 
The question is if, in view of your first axiom, the will is a cause at all. It seems to me that you and Imelahn accept that your first axiom must be limited in its application to rational beings, but both of you resist to say it openly.

Please tell me, just to understand what you mean with “acting according to the nature of free will”.
I don’t have much time at the moment, but if you analyze what you are saying Juan concerning will acts than you are essentially saying that the will itself cannot produce will acts. In the matter of choice which is substantially an act of the will though formally an act of the intellect, if the will itself needs to reduced from potentiality to actuality in the way I think your thinking, than the will is not going to be able to produce the will act of choice as it would be strictly in potency. To produce a will act such as choice which is a kind of being, the will must be in act or second act, i.e., in motion or in operation. The will’s initial motion is done by God. Once it is in act or operation, it can produce beings or will acts as other second causes can cause being. The will though is a contingent cause. It is not necessary that when it is in operation that it is predetermined to a certain effect or a certain choice. You can decide to eat a slice of pizza or not. You might prefer to eat something else. The cause of a will act such as choice is the will is it not?
 
Because that efficient cause determines the “cascade”.
So, do you think that efficient cause is synonymous with determinism? In other words, given an efficient cause, the effect follows (logically, not temporally) necessarily?
 
So, do you think that efficient cause is synonymous with determinism? In other words, given an efficient cause, the effect follows (logically, not temporally) necessarily?
I for one doubt it. Experiments in quantum mechanics have demonstrated there are “random” outcomes that are not explained by classical mechanics (i.e., cause and effect).
 
I don’t have much time at the moment, but if you analyze what you are saying Juan concerning will acts than you are essentially saying that the will itself cannot produce will acts. In the matter of choice which is substantially an act of the will though formally an act of the intellect, if the will itself needs to reduced from potentiality to actuality in the way I think your thinking, than the will is not going to be able to produce the will act of choice as it would be strictly in potency. To produce a will act such as choice which is a kind of being, the will must be in act or second act, i.e., in motion or in operation. The will’s initial motion is done by God. Once it is in act or operation, it can produce beings or will acts as other second causes can cause being. The will though is a contingent cause. It is not necessary that when it is in operation that it is predetermined to a certain effect or a certain choice. You can decide to eat a slice of pizza or not. You might prefer to eat something else. The cause of a will act such as choice is the will is it not?
Take your time Richca, there is no need to answer in a hurry. If you read my comments carefully is precisely the opposite to what you have understood: we are the source of our free acts; we are first movers in relation to our free acts. I am discussing the unrestricted application of the “act-potency-act” axiom to rational beings.
 
So, do you think that efficient cause is synonymous with determinism? In other words, given an efficient cause, the effect follows (logically, not temporally) necessarily?
No, I don’t think efficient causality implies determinism. I am sure you know that determinism is something else. However, given an acting efficient cause, it’s effect is determined by it.

I do think that your “act-potency-act” axiom applied to the actions of rational beings is inconsistent with your belief in our freedom. As I have said, the First Mover would determine the whole “cascade”.
 
I for one doubt it. Experiments in quantum mechanics have demonstrated there are “random” outcomes that are not explained by classical mechanics (i.e., cause and effect).
In general, the result of an experiment does not demonstrate a hypothesis; but it shows its plausibility.

I don’t know about those experiments in particular. Please, tell us more, so that we can see what was shown with them.
 
No, I don’t think efficient causality implies determinism. I am sure you know that determinism is something else. However, given an acting efficient cause, it’s effect is determined by it.

I do think that your “act-potency-act” axiom applied to the actions of rational beings is inconsistent with your belief in our freedom. As I have said, the First Mover would determine the whole “cascade”.
It is written “Do not say: “It was God’s doing that I fell away,”
for what he hates he does not do.
Do not say: “He himself has led me astray,”
for he has no need of the wicked.” (Sirach 15: 11-12).

The First Mover is not the cause of sin. Consequently, the whole “cascade” is not determined by the First Mover. However, without the First Mover, human beings could neither do good or evil, they would be powerless to do anything at all. God operates in us according to the nature He created us with as well as according to the plan of His providence.
 
I can conceive myself cooperating with another person like me to obtain a result that both of us desire. We can sum our energy so that we can act faster or more vigorously together. But if I take an stick to push with it another body, the stick will not add any energy to mine. This last case is analogous to an action in which I would allegedly be cooperating with God. If all my energy has its origin in God, I am
adding nothing really.
 
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