Hugo Chavez, fiery Venezuelan leader, dies at 58

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Veronica7 said:
Ah, oldcelt- I’m sorry for giving the impression I was talking about you specifically. I should have written that in general, everyone should not be rejoicing over Chavez’ death.

I am also not watching the news coverage. It’s business as usual.
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No problem…this board can be a confusing place.
 
oldcelt said:
You make a good point. I don’t expect people to sing the praises of the US for investing in this manner, but I do find it to be a bit hypocritical to accuse he US of bad intentions when the various governments and nations involved have gladly accepted, or directly requested, our assistance.
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And that is the problem in Venezuela today. After the Chavez seized the industry built by foreign investors it went into decline. While many look at an oil well as a goose laying golden eggs they fail to realize the amount of reinvestment that has to be made to keep it running efficiently. Chavez made that mistake when he diverted funds from the government owned oil industry to support his social programs. Now Venezuela is in serious trouble as no foreign investor is willing to risk spending money there just so the government can seize it and the government itself is in no position to make the investments the industry needs to remain profitable. Classic case of socialism - eventually you run out of other’s people money.
The Venezuelan oil industry can be pictured as a toothless tiger resting on its haunches before a huge slice of raw meat. The country sits on significant hydrocarbon resources that remain undeveloped due to severe management, technical and financial constraints driven by the application of a rigid statist ideology for what should be a commercial enterprise. To put this industry back on track a post-Chavez government will need to install a new petroleum industry management model.
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When Hugo Chavez came to power in Venezuela in December 1998, oil production was around 3.2 million b/d. Today, best estimates of Venezuelan oil production place it at around 2.6 million b/d, a significant drop of about 600,000 b/d. If the strategic plan inherited by the Chavez administration from the previous management of Petroleos de Venezuela had been followed, current Venezuelan oil production would be at some 5 million b/d. The gap of 2.5 million b/d between plan and reality represents a true financial disaster for Venezuela.
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Under ministerial control the oil company became politically driven and partly abandoned its core business. It became defined as a socialist enterprise, dedicating increasing amounts of time, effort and money to non-oil related activities. Eight affiliates were created to engage in food imports and distribution, housing construction, agriculture and meat production among other activities. The number of employees increased from about 39,300 in 2002 (See “La indoblegable sociedad venezolana”, by Eddie Ramirez, Caracas, Editorial CEC, April 2010) to a current 115,000, many of whom were engaged in non-oil related activities. Oil income started to be diverted to a parallel government fund, bypassing the Venezuelan Central Bank and legislative monitoring (there are 65 members of the opposition in the National Assembly), a move lacking in transparency and accountability.
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ensec.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=371:venezuela-chavez-and-pdvsas-oil-woes&catid=128:issue-content&Itemid=402
 
 
iamrefreshed said:
You do know those private companies paid billions to Venezuela for those oil rights, billions more to build the infrastructure and created tens of thousands of jobs filled by Venezuelans. Right? You know that?🤷
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‘created tens of thousands of jobs filled by Venezuelans.’ Umm… were these in any way, shape or form living wage jobs? You know that? 🤷
 
Veronica7 said:
‘created tens of thousands of jobs filled by Venezuelans.’ Umm… were these in any way, shape or form living wage jobs? You know that? 🤷
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Yes. Literally thousands of them - then Chavez ruined those jobs.
Since its creation in 1976 and up to 1998 Petroleos de Venezuela, PDVSA, the Venezuelan state owned oil company, was a reasonably well managed state corporation. A professional cadre of managers and technicians took care of the core business of the company and there was a rather clear separation of roles between the oil company and the state. In 2002 this model came to an end. Chavez named a Marxist economist as President of the company with little knowledge of the industry and much disdain for its managers who he had often referred to as ‘unpatriotic technocrats.’ His arrival led to a manager’s revolt which **caused the dismissal, by Chavez in 2002 and 2003 of some 22,000 managerial, technical and clerical staff which were some of the country’s best and the brightest. **This massive dismissal represented about 56% of total employees at the time and caused a collapse of the company’s production in a matter of weeks. In a speech given to the National Assembly Hugo Chavez said that his naming of the company president had been a move designed to elicit the protest of the managers, so that he could take over the control of the company.
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ensec.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=371:venezuela-chavez-and-pdvsas-oil-woes&catid=128:issue-content&Itemid=402
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Northumbrian said:
For those who are hoping that the people of Venezuala do not choose a leader similar to Hugo Chavez, this may be more likely to happen if people making comments showed a little bit more compassion. Many major news sites are full of comments from peope in the US gloating and mocking the man before he is even buried. That is certainly not the Christian thing to do, and may I say is notthe decent thing either. That sort of behaviour will have quite the opposite effect on the opinion certainly of Venezualans and South Americans and in fact much of the rest of the world.

While I am sure that these mockers and gloaters in no way reflect the majority of the American public, they are doing their fellow Americans a terrible disservice by sending these messages. In the age of global communication, we should realise just how much responsibility we each have to represent our country and people fairly.

I am dreading the very likely Fox News blunder which will unfairly depict the people of the US as the sort of country that will kick a chap when he is down or spit on his grave.

Then it only remains for other news outlets like RT to give a more sympathetic view and BOOM, more pro Chavez style leaders achieve power. And not just in Venezula.
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  1. You’ll be taken a bit more seriusly if leave out the jabs at news networks you dislike, especially when they haven’t done anything wrong in this case. Less that 100 posts and your agenda is already obvious from your left-leaning posts. Only liberals could turn a news topic about a terrible world leader who dies into a rant about American imperialism.
  2. How does one identify posts on the internet as “American?” Even if death, th “US is just another country” crowd finds a way to paint us as in the wrong. We had nothing to do with his death, and nothing to do with his successor.
  3. Any people that choose a terrible leader than ruins a country out of spite towards comments received on the internet deserves 40 years of wandering the desert of whatever they end up with. I can’t think of more non-sensical or petty things to even discuss. That’s the poitical equivalent of threatening to cut yourself if you don’t get your way. Anyone who thinks this way needs to grow up.
 
SamH said:
Yes. Literally thousands of them - then Chavez ruined those jobs.
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I wasn’t referring to numbers of jobs/employees, nor whether they were the ‘best and the brightest’ in their classes. I’m talking about whether they were paid a living wage.

And, if Chavez ‘ruined’ those jobs, how did Venezuelan unemployment go down from 14.5% in 1999 to 7.6% in 2009.

I don’t have a problem with Hugo Chavez nationalizing the oil company.

So he put in a Marxist who didn’t know the oil business to replace a Capitalist who did know the business and some of their profits or productivity went down.

It seems Chavez leaves a mixed- bag legacy. This is what I was talking about when I said “gray area.” Some issues in the country he improved, some he didn’t. Just like any leader. Under his watch, the murder rate went up a lot while other bad things went down.

Not sure why I hear so much impassioned defense of foreign companies basically taking over natural resources of a 3rd world country. Pretty sure there is a common denominator of greed.

This seems to really be about Communism vs. Capitalism. Our holy Catholic Church in the past 100 years or so has repeatedly warned of the dangers of both Communism and Capitalism. They are two ends of the bell curve, each with benefits and drawbacks. Problem is we live in a fallen world so nothing is perfect. In an ideal Catholic state we’d see something in the middle (more local economies, distributism) and less economic dependence on the military/industrial complex.
Just my 2cents. Peace.
 
Veronica7 said:
‘created tens of thousands of jobs filled by Venezuelans.’ Umm… were these in any way, shape or form living wage jobs? You know that? 🤷
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Your “America and it’s corporations are evil” schtick is old, tiresome and simply untrue.😃
 
CaptFun said:
I’m American. I love those people. I don’t know who you are talking about exactly.

President Kennedy? Sure he tried to oust Castro (and his Russian missiles he had pointed at us, scaring little 9 year old me every time we had an air raid drill in the early '60s) but he started the Peace Corps too.

Most of the trouble has been with Communist revolutionary governments stealing peoples’ liberties (property, right to speak, worship, have a free press, democracy) while imposing their will with guerilla wars.

As Empire builders go … America sure gives back a lot of territory it spilled blood over.
Villans should be made of sterner stuff.

The U.S. (again not all of US) is more guilty of polluting the world with immorality via the worst of Hollywood (which schizophrenically can also inspire and uplift with good movies) and a music industry that has of late made a shambles of “the arts”. In my opinion.

Poor Chavez probably watched Michael Moore’s movie “Sicko” and actually believed that Cuba had the best doctors. :nope: Ironically maybe he should have tried to get treated in America.

The US probably would have peacefully let him do that (for all his anti-Americanism and bluster) just like it let him fly into New York, call George Bush the devil, and fly peacefully home. Far from being Imperialists – Americans prefer to be giant muffins.

Kill a few thousand innocent civilians just going to work in NY like bin Laden, and America (conservative or liberal Presidents) will take you out. But will probably not take over your country. Ask Germany, Japan etc.

And rest easy there, most Americans particularly like Ireland (though while I was there I did hear a couple “ugly Americans” complaining loudly about things and giving*** us*** a bad name) – sorry if you experienced some of our “jerks” – we do have a lot of people.

I’ll bet if you came to America you could have a good time. See the Grand Canyon. Ride the Small World Ride at Disneyland. Enjoy a tour of Irish-American accomplishments
in the US (which could be a LONG tour).

As an American of Irish descent myself (and a stereotypical mellow Californian) let me wish you a: "Have a Nice Day 🙂 " < complete with an overdone American smiley face.

Not that I** need** to tell you what kind of day to have. 😉
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👍 Well put.

In most parishes I belonged to we had missionaries, Latin American apostolates, food drives, medicine drives, etc. In my present parish, we have a group that goes Guatamala every year to bring medicine.

My daughter’s high school had kids go to El Salvador every year.

My son’s high school had a group that went to Mexico every year. They help build a hospital. My son helped build a barn so that women could have a means of support.
 
iamrefreshed said:
Your “America and it’s corporations are evil” schtick is old, tiresome and simply untrue.😃
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I’m saying imperialism, whether corporate or governmental is wrong. I never said “America is wrong.”

My own husband works for a (smallish) corporation.

I said I didn’t have a problem with Chavez kicking American companies out of his country.

Blind patriotism, ‘my country right or wrong’ is indefensible.
 
Veronica7 said:
I wasn’t referring to numbers of jobs/employees, nor whether they were the ‘best and the brightest’ in their classes. I’m talking about whether they were paid a living wage.

And, if Chavez ‘ruined’ those jobs, how did Venezuelan unemployment go down from 14.5% in 1999 to 7.6% in 2009.

I don’t have a problem with Hugo Chavez nationalizing the oil company.

So he put in a Marxist who didn’t know the oil business to replace a Capitalist who did know the business and some of their profits or productivity went down.
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And now the country is a land of shortages. Today the greatest concern of the country is not oil but food shortages - unheard of until a few years ago. As for the helpful unemployment numbers, I seem to a recall a quote about the people doing the counting being the most important - not the people being counted.
 
pete_29 said:
Jealousy ?
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I was going to say, having been stationed in Europe, that most anti-Americanism is because
Europe was top dog for a long time 1500-1945, That they can’t stand the thought that
A country that they considered a bumpkin backwater is top dog now. 😉
 
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