Indianapolis archbishop revokes Jesuit prep school's Catholic identity

[meltzerboy2]

I would think it is, at least in part, related to enrollment and staying in business, because, as you know being a teacher, education is a business. The feeling might be that if word gets around that they have been removed from the Catholic directory, parents might not wish to send their children to the school and pay big bucks to a place that is not giving their children a traditional Catholic education.

 

[Thorolfr]

parents might not wish to send their children to the school and pay big bucks to a place that is not giving their children a traditional Catholic education.

What I can’t understand is why non-Catholics and even non-Christians like Jews, Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs would want to send their kids to a Catholic school to get a Catholic education. As someone posted above:

Approximately 50% of Brebeuf Jesuit’s students are non-Catholic and ascribe to a variety of traditions, including multiple denominations of Protestantism, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Sikhism, and many more.

And that means that the Catholic kids will be mixing at school with a lot of non-Catholic kids and perhaps getting all sorts of non-Catholic ideas from them.

 

[meltzerboy2]

Some non-Catholic parents believe that a Catholic school means a solid, no-nonsense education, more discipline, smaller class size, which means more individual attention given to students, and may even like the religious instruction provided they are not strict followers of their own religion. I have the impression, however, that at least some if not many Catholic parents are not so thrilled with the idea that Catholic schools have a significant enrollment of non-Catholic students and even a small percentage of non-Catholic teachers. They would probably prefer a more traditional Catholic school with almost exclusively Catholic students and Catholic faculty. Otherwise, apart from the religious instruction, why not send their children to a nonsectarian private school or a public school?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Why do schools feel the need to keep their Catholic status? Is there some benefit beyond the directory? I feel like I’m missing something.

Well, for one thing, it may be important to them to be known as Catholic schools for purposes of brand identity, marketing, etc.
For another thing, they may feel it’s important to obey the rules currently enforced by the magisterium, even if they personally have doubts about them.
For a third thing, they may genuinely be concerned about exemplifying Catholic doctrine to the world.

I personally like to keep my own “Catholic status” and so do you. Why shouldn’t the school feel the same?

Edited to add, I found an article explaining some additional reasons why the Catholic high school that chose to terminate its gay married teacher wanted to “keep Catholic identity”. According to the article, losing “Catholic identity” for this school would mean that diocesan priests couldn’t work there, they couldn’t offer the sacraments there, and they would lose their 501(c )(3) nonprofit status. Apparently Brebeuf Jesuit doesn’t have these issues.

Cathedral High fires gay teacher to stay in Indianapolis Archdiocese

 

[Tis_Bearself]

In some of the places I’ve lived, the area is not chockablock with “nonsectarian private schools” of good quality. They tend to be nominally Catholic, nominally Christian, nominally Friends, or nominally something else. Usually they are nominally whatever the majority religion or historic majority religion is for the area.

 

[meltzerboy2]

I forget sometimes that not every area is similar to NYC.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

And that means that the Catholic kids will be mixing at school with a lot of non-Catholic kids and perhaps getting all sorts of non-Catholic ideas from them.

It also means the non-Catholic kids will be learning about Catholicism and Catholics.
I don’t see that as being a bad thing. It could even be viewed as a form of quiet evangelism.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

In the case of teachers crossing that line themselves (yes it happens), then that can be dealt with. But who really knew or wanted to know their teacher outside of school hours growing up? It was not our business and we didn’t want it to be either.

At my Catholic high school, the number of students who spent time with their teachers outside of school hours for one thing or another was pretty huge. My freshman year teacher threw us a party to celebrate her winning a city-wide “Foxy Teacher” contest. (It was a nice party, nothing untoward went on.) Other teachers would do hobby stuff with students, have them over to their house on weekends, take them to plays or conferences, etc. In some cases the teachers did “cross the line” but not all.

So, while you may not have wanted to spend time with your students outside the classroom, that wasn’t the case for every teacher. Also, there were a lot of kids who just wanted to talk to a teacher and have the teacher be a mentor or a guide or a sort of additional parent, and in the course of doing that they would usually learn at least the basics of what was going on in teacher’s life, like were they married, were they dating, etc. They were interested in how the teacher was handling their life because they were looking for role models for their own.

I personally was not into being all buddy-buddy with teachers, unlike some of the kids who had a bad parental situation at home or other motivations to become teachers’ friends, but even I ended up spending a good bit of time outside school with one teacher who encouraged my interest in music and electronics. He may have had ulterior motives, but nothing came of them .

 

[commenter]

The media will zero in on same sex issue. But keep in mind countless other institutions have been dropped for for other reasons, of non Catholicity.

With Brebauf, I have seen some articles about weakness of Catholic identity going back to the 1980s. In my own diocese, we looked into various options for our kids. Some were notorious for various abuses, liturgical, doctrinal, or other. But even on the “good” ones there was hardly anything solid. Many traditional Catholics sent their kids to public school, or home schooled.

A few years ago a group of parents established a new Classical high school, with daily Mass, Latin, Philosophy, no Common Core.

I volunteer there. We got permission of the bishop, but we were opposed by the liberal diocesan education department. We are part of the Chesterton Schools Network.

 

[meltzerboy2]

I take it you were raised in a small- or medium-sized town setting rather than an urban center? All of my teachers couldn’t wait to go home to their families or wherever after a day’s work, and we students had the same desire.

 

[13pollitos]

So, while you may not have wanted to spend time with your students outside the classroom, that wasn’t the case for every teacher

This is not really what i said. I said my students don’t know me outside of school activities. There are plenty of “after school” activities, but nothing outside of school.

I would never, as a mom allow my kids to have interaction with their teachers outside of school activities either. It is for the safety of both teacher and the students.

It’s not a good idea to place yourself in a situation that could be viewed as this

He may have had ulterior motives

I never taught High School (or middle school). If I did, i especially would avoid interaction with students outside of school activities. Look at news reports on any given day about middle and high school teachers with students.

Even if some cases are untrue allegations (not convince many are), no one recovers from that. You will never have another job.

 

[meltzerboy2]

This is particularly the case in today’s climate. I wouldn’t think of spending time with any of my college students, especially women, after hours. Even during the work day, I have to be conscious of what I say both in class and outside of class, and even then I run the risk of my intentions being misinterpreted. We really live in a very different world today.

 

[13pollitos]

I grew up in a small town and we has no desire to interact with each other outside of school hours either. Students didn’t want even more adults telling us what to do and teachers had their own lives to live. And some teachers work second jobs. We don’t make a huge salary.

As a teacher, many of the districts I have worked for had rules against us having non school function contact with our students. To the degree that even if my kids were friends with students I had taught a few years before, those students could not visit my home. My kids could go to theirs or they could meet in public (movies, games, etc) with the other students family to supervise. We even had protocol for running into them at the park, zoo, ball games, etc (keep it short and sweet).

Not all districts did, but it was something that was good for all involved. It al least cuts down on situations that are unethical or could be construed as unethical.

 

[13pollitos]

Serious question here, would safe environment even allow for teachers to have interaction outside of school with students these days? If so, that needs to be looked at and changed.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I take it you were raised in a small- or medium-sized town setting rather than an urban center? All of my teachers couldn’t wait to go home to their families or wherever after a day’s work, and we students had the same desire.

I was raised in the suburbs of a major Midwestern city. The city I grew up in (it was a burb but also its own city) was the most densely populated area between Chicago and NYC, so I’ve read.

The Midwest is a friendly place. I’m sure there were some teachers at my Catholic schools who couldn’t wait to get away from us, but there were also many teachers, especially at my high school, who seemed to genuinely enjoy us. Sure, they set boundaries (except for the one or two who like I said “crossed the line”) but this attitude you describe is something I saw more from my in-laws, who were both public school teachers and lived a couple hours away in a decaying industrial area with students who were hostile and violent and affected by race issues. None of this applied to my area, which had a bunch of Catholic schools, most of which are still open and some of which are nationally known for producing famous alumni (not mine, mostly the boys’ schools).

I have to ask, do you have much experience with Catholic schools?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Serious question here, would safe environment even allow for teachers to have interaction outside of school with students these days? If so, that needs to be looked at and changed.

This, I do not know. I am pretty sure some of the stuff that went on “backintheday” would be disallowed nowadays when as I understand it, you need to have two adults present to even be in a car with a minor.

 

[13pollitos]

I would hope so!

 

[13pollitos]

I attended catholic school in the southeast in the 1980’s and ‘90’s. Went to public school for grades 3 and 4. The rest were all at various Catholic schools. We moved relatively often so it wasn’t just one town, one school. Some of the schools were mostly religious sisters (grade schools) and priests (high school) but even those had a fair amount of lay teachers.

The students would not want to be around the teachers. Many of the teachers worked a second job and the others had family obligations. As an adult who has worked in several school systems (husband military so we are mobile), I know wonder of it was as much they attempted to avoid a situation that would even slightly appear to be inappropriate. Didn’t really matter anyway because as students we also had our own lives and families. It was uncomfortable to “be seen” by our teachers outside of school and it would have been uncomfortable if the teachers had wanted that interaction with us.

Nearly every school I taught or subbed for was a public school. Many had very strict guidelines about student interactions. It protected all of us. Teachers were unlikely to have false allegations. Students were unlikely to be put into abuse situations. Parents were unlikely to have teacher drop into their homes unexpectedly under the guise of visiting. It was good for all involved.

I find it very worrisome that Catholic schools have not encouraged smarter behavior between their teachers and students. With all that is happening now, I really hope this is remedied.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

My experiences in school were in the 80s. I am sure there have been many “safe environment” changes since.

 

[Trader]

Thank you. Marriage is not private, ever. Both civil law and canon law require witnesses and that the date of the wedding be recorded. This is for the protection of children born during the marriage and for the protection of other persons who might unknowingly attempt to marry someone who is already married to someone else.

Of course, with “same sex marriage” no children will be produced. This is the reason why it cannot meet the definition of marriage in any culture until just a few years ago.