Info on SDA

[KathleenGee]

Ron, see the nuance now in your name…

Again, Jesus we receive is not just symbolic but real.

Receiving the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist is indeed that of Our Lord Jesus Christ, nothing symbolic, but a great act of love on God’s part that we can commune with Him. All else is symbolism in comparison to the reality of Jesus Christ present among us.

The Eucharist has always been the centrality and summit of the Christian faith for 1,500 years. It requires faith with certitude.

 

[Protestant101]

How can you if you condemn Catholicism?

How can I what?

 

[KathleenGee]

Why do you keep Catholic books ?? I have a small library of them, my intent and use of them in faith.

 

[greggy53]

I saw, in the last few days where a well educated SDA described their statement of beliefs. Then he said something I think many Catholics may have missed. He said that te SDA Church teaches that there will be those who have never kept the seventh-day Sabbath before they are taken to Heaven to be with Jesus.

I didn’t miss it, I just don’t buy it. I have read that what they really mean when they that say there will be Catholics in Heaven is that there will be Catholics in Heaven who have come out from the Church and joined the SDA.
We Catholics have a similar belief. We believe there will be many Protestants in Heaven, but they won’t be Protestant by the time they get there. They may die Protestant, but if they make it to Purgatory they will quickly convert.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

RontheJew, remember our Mass centers on the unbloody sacrifice of Jesus, broken for us.

Go to Hebrew Catholic…go to Hebrewcatholic…

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

What’s the point of an unbloody sacrifice?

 

[KathleenGee]

As Christ said, ‘Do this in memory of me’…

The Eucharist had been the general practice throughout the Christian world by the time St. Justin the Martyr was asked to explain what happens…the bishops appointed their successors and deacons and in time the presbyters, the priests.

You have to go back to the origins of Christianity to see how the Word of God was incarnated with the given people…and that incarnated of faith had a form. It varied somewhat from culture to culture, but basically the general format was the same…that form being the local ecclesia.

The Eucharist was always the central point as well as the high point for the early Christians who faced persecutions and death for coming. For awhile, it was called ‘The Secret’.

Richard, if you are trying to prove your stand using Scripture to explain the great divide between you and Catholicism, it is Bible quotes against Bible quotes…you can’t debate Scripture without the Ecclesia. You have to study ecclesia in context of its times and what people were dealing with. You have to go to the founding of the original faith of Christians. Heresy was always the problem.

I have pondered on these same bible quotes on Hebrews throughout my entire life at Mass…these very readings are drawn and reflected upon. If I thought the Church was contradicting them, I would have walked out a long time ago. All priests draw on their priesthood through Jesus Christ in the sacrament of Holy Orders.

You should do some reading on the Eucharist itself, read the lives of people who have benefitted by the Eucharist and see how it fulfills the Word of God. Otherwise, without the incarnation of the Word of God Made Flesh…concrete, non-arbitrary…then the result if what we have here…stonewalled divisions.

Christ called us to be one with Him and one another. We all have the vocation of holiness, He calls us to the faith of His apostles, and to a universal faith that reveals Christ lived and died and resurrected for all.

People here and elsewhere have had profound religious experiences. Many times people come out of these experiences as having found the right way. But this experience happens to all kinds of people, in all kinds of faiths and beliefs systems.

What this is telling me is that we have to tolerate each other and believe all these different ways are also saying to us the same message…this is what the Lord wants, for us to be tolerant of one another and serve one another.

Christ will not judge us for going to Mass on Sunday…this has been going on for almost 2,000 years. He doesn’t need us. But He did say where were we when He was suffering, naked, hungry, suffering injustices…that is where I try to keep my focus.

I come on to the SDA’s…just like the fellow who started this post. A friend was joining and he saw alot of bad things being said about Catholics. I have shared what I experienced. But what concerns me is the SDA’s ongoing campaign against Catholicism, just as I see with the JW’s, and undercurrents among Mormonism.

What I am trying to say is we have to make an act of faith, and stand up a head taller, and turn the other way when things get acrimonious in inter-faith dialogue. How much does it accomplish anyway? I don’t know. But for people to come together to clear up and atleast speak to each other is good. But convincing people here on CAF, I haven’t seen much of any.

 

[greggy53]

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

What’s the point of an unbloody sacrifice?

In the book of Revelations the lamb stands as one “slain” before the throne of God. Jesus presents himself before the father perpetually through all time as the perfect sacrifice on our behalf .Remember the altar in Revelations? What is an altar? what is it’s specific purpose?..Sacrifice. There is indeed an altar in Heaven and the mystical sacrifice in heaven is brought to us on earth whenever a Mass is said. If you would look closely at what happens in every Mass you would see the scriptures come to life.

 

[KathleenGee]

And in Revelations, it refers to the Daily Sacrifice…I have passed through threads where Richard has already been shown these …

I am now closing with SDA posting.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

As Christ said, ‘Do this in memory of me’…

The Eucharist had been the general practice throughout the Christian world by the time St. Justin the Martyr was asked to explain what happens…the bishops appointed their successors and deacons and in time the presbyters, the priests.

You have to go back to the origins of Christianity to see how the Word of God was incarnated with the given people…and that incarnated of faith had a form. It varied somewhat from culture to culture, but basically the general format was the same…that form being the local ecclesia.

The Eucharist was always the central point as well as the high point for the early Christians who faced persecutions and death for coming. For awhile, it was called ‘The Secret’.

Richard, if you are trying to prove your stand using Scripture to explain the great divide between you and Catholicism, it is Bible quotes against Bible quotes…you can’t debate Scripture without the Ecclesia. You have to study ecclesia in context of its times and what people were dealing with. You have to go to the founding of the original faith of Christians. Heresy was always the problem.

I have pondered on these same bible quotes on Hebrews throughout my entire life at Mass…these very readings are drawn and reflected upon. If I thought the Church was contradicting them, I would have walked out a long time ago. All priests draw on their priesthood through Jesus Christ in the sacrament of Holy Orders.

You should do some reading on the Eucharist itself, read the lives of people who have benefitted by the Eucharist and see how it fulfills the Word of God. Otherwise, without the incarnation of the Word of God Made Flesh…concrete, non-arbitrary…then the result if what we have here…stonewalled divisions.

Christ called us to be one with Him and one another. We all have the vocation of holiness, He calls us to the faith of His apostles, and to a universal faith that reveals Christ lived and died and resurrected for all.

People here and elsewhere have had profound religious experiences. Many times people come out of these experiences as having found the right way. But this experience happens to all kinds of people, in all kinds of faiths and beliefs systems.

What this is telling me is that we have to tolerate each other and believe all these different ways are also saying to us the same message…this is what the Lord wants, for us to be tolerant of one another and serve one another.

Christ will not judge us for going to Mass on Sunday…this has been going on for almost 2,000 years. He doesn’t need us. But He did say where were we when He was suffering, naked, hungry, suffering injustices…that is where I try to keep my focus.

I come on to the SDA’s…just like the fellow who started this post. A friend was joining and he saw alot of bad things being said about Catholics. I have shared what I experienced. But what concerns me is the SDA’s ongoing campaign against Catholicism, just as I see with the JW’s, and undercurrents among Mormonism.

What I am trying to say is we have to make an act of faith, and stand up a head taller, and turn the other way when things get acrimonious in inter-faith dialogue. How much does it accomplish anyway? I don’t know. But for people to come together to clear up and atleast speak to each other is good. But convincing people here on CAF, I haven’t seen much of any.

It’s a simple question Kathleen. Really no need for all this diversion. You said

---

:
Originally Posted by KathleenGee
RontheJew, remember our Mass centers on the unbloody sacrifice of Jesus, broken for us.

To which I answered

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

What’s the point of an unbloody sacrifice?

I would like an answer to this question specifically, But I certainly understand if you won’t or can’t.

 

[greggy53]

It’s a simple question Kathleen. Really no need for all this diversion. You said

To which I answered

I would like an answer to this question specifically, But I certainly understand if you won’t or can’t.

In the book of Revelations the lamb stands as one “slain” before the throne of God. Jesus presents himself before the father perpetually through all time as the perfect sacrifice on our behalf .Remember the altar in Revelations? What is an altar? what is it’s specific purpose?..Sacrifice. There is indeed an altar in Heaven and the mystical sacrifice in heaven is brought to us on earth whenever a Mass is said. If you would look closely at what happens in every Mass you would see the scriptures come to life.

Who are we to know the mind of God? why he has done what he does, and what he will do. It’s in the scriptures in Revelation.

 

[CatholicLover]

I’m really glad to hear that about the way you are being treated .…The problem with the other thing about how the “Church sits in prophesy” is that we, the people you see and meet at Mass ARE the Church. So on the one hand you tell us how accepting and kind we are, and then turn around and say the opposite in the “prophesy” about the same people.
We are not separate from our beliefs. If you claim the Church is evil then you claim that we are evil too. That’s the problem that some SDA’s and other Protestants don’t understand. When you reject our Pope, and our Bishops and priests you reject us.

Your point is well taken and were the shoe on the other foot I might feel the same way. I’ve been an Adventist since birth, I’ve attended Adventist schools from grade school through university. I can assure you that whenever the subject came up whether in bible studies, sabbath school or bible classes, the pastor or teacher or worship leader always made a point of separating the actions of the Papacy from the members of the Catholic Church. You may say it’s splitting hairs (and probably will) but my point is, that’s how we view it.

What I’d be interested in is the Catholic view of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation. Could you point me to any resources that might help me out?

 

[CatholicLover]

Catholiclover,

Wouldn’t you say that our behavior and vision of non-Catholics as being more Christlike…I don’t see the spirit of anti-Christ at the Mass or working through the papacy…same spirit, same faith …

I wonder if you have heard any teachings that contradict your spirit,…I mean your inner faith when you go to Mass.

I will say and always do that the Catholics I have had the priviledge to meet and become friends with are wonderful Christians but so are the Adventists and members of other protestant denominations. I don’t fault the Adventist Church for not recognizing my marriage although it hurts me that they won’t. In the Adventist Churches eyes we are “unequally yoked” (2 Corinthians 6:14) being from two different denominations. The same would hold true if my wife were Baptist or Methodist; it’s not just because she’s Catholic. My view of that verse is that Paul is referring to non-Christians (obviously) and it should not apply to other Christian denominations.

 

[greggy53]

Your point is well taken and were the shoe on the other foot I might feel the same way. I’ve been an Adventist since birth, I’ve attended Adventist schools from grade school through university. I can assure you that whenever the subject came up whether in bible studies, sabbath school or bible classes, the pastor or teacher or worship leader always made a point of separating the actions of the Papacy from the members of the Catholic Church. You may say it’s splitting hairs (and probably will) but my point is, that’s how we view it.

What I’d be interested in is the Catholic view of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation. Could you point me to any resources that might help me out?

I’m sure you can find lots of Catholic material on it here at Catholic.com.

 

[CatholicLover]

I didn’t miss it, I just don’t buy it. I have read that what they really mean when they that say there will be Catholics in Heaven is that there will be Catholics in Heaven who have come out from the Church and joined the SDA.
We Catholics have a similar belief. We believe there will be many Protestants in Heaven, but they won’t be Protestant by the time they get there. They may die Protestant, but if they make it to Purgatory they will quickly convert.

We mean what we say. We’re not referring to people who convert to Adventism, if that were the case they would no longer be worshipping on Sunday. Further, we don’t believe in Purgatory so in our view there will be no converting after death.

 

[KathleenGee]

Richard,
What I have been trying to tell you, ever since I first used the universal catechism and why we worship on Sunday…and then your response in deleting my posts on this matter, and I was sharing professionally as a catechist…

Is attitude, and the denial to study church history. You can’t take Scripture out of context of its people…you can quote the Old Testament and the Word of God with the Jewish people, but you on the other hand use the Word of God without the Christians in the New Testament and their history…you don’t have any history beyond the very beginning years of Christianity. Christianity resumes only 1800 years later with the SDA’s…

I already know the passage Greggy gave you from Revelations…the liturgy is saturated with the Word of God including its environment, the place where the Mass takes place…study the altar, its placement, study the tabernacle, study the use of candle light, the baptismal font, the fact that we renew our baptism every time we enter a church and bless ourselves with holy water.

We study Scripture from the context of its whole and how the Word of God through the apostles was laid down at its beginning. Christ did not make mistakes. People do. But Christ did establish His church, and He is broken daily for us at the Daily Sacrifice.

If people could put aside their fears and prejudice and begin to study the Mass from an objective and historical point of view as well as the foundation of the sacraments, we would not have the divisions we have.

Christianity was basically united in faith but the fracture came with the Reformation, 1,500 years later.

My mother’s side were former Baptists…they still claimed to be Christians but did not attend church. My mother was a convert. One of them came to visit us one day at our Catholic home, and a relative said that history alone proves the Catholic church, she a person with only a high school education.

A neighbor was invited to my cousin who was baptized as a Catholic as a teen through my father. During the consecration of the Mass, the attendees heard the bells. A few days later, the neighbor made a crack about how come nobody was answering the telephone during the Mass, and my grandmother with an 8th grade education and no church attendance, became very angry.

If SDA’s here condemn the Mass, they are also rejecting the Gospel of John and the various references in the Epistles. Most of all, SDA’s are denying themselves Jesus Christ. The fact that we receive His body, blood, soul and divinity, what most appropriate day to worship God than on Resurrection Sunday, your loss.

The Church in time because both Gentile and Jewish Christians moved the worship to Sunday, it then became binding…and subsequently, was bound in heaven.

Catholicism is binding. Our beliefs and practices are binding. We are bound to the greater reality of Jesus Christ.

Can you understand why I personally am hurt and offended by the remarks of SDA’s towards the sacredness of Christ in my faith and in my church and its history and people, to deny and condemn us to hell? And your beliefs only 100 years old or so…where then was Christ???

In fact, Who is Christ? How do you define Him?

The bottom line is Christology, not the non Christian Jewish sabbath.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard,
What I have been trying to tell you, ever since I first used the universal catechism and why we worship on Sunday…and then your response in deleting my posts on this matter, and I was sharing professionally as a catechist…

Kathleen, you have accused me of deleting your posts before. Let me say that I don’t even know how to delete someone elses posts. And I don’t think that I would even have that power. I didn’t know you were a professional catechist. What is that and do you make money at it?

Is attitude, and the denial to study church history.

How do you know that I don’t study church history?

You can’t take Scripture out of context of its people…you can quote the Old Testament and the Word of God with the Jewish people, but you on the other hand use the Word of God without the Christians in the New Testament and their history…you don’t have any history beyond the very beginning years of Christianity. Christianity resumes only 1800 years later with the SDA’s…

I’m sure you have read my posts on Jer.31 and Heb. 8&10 So, let me ask you as a professional catechist.

Jeremiah31
31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

What is this talking about and who is the house of Israel in v.31

I already know the passage Greggy gave you from Revelations

Perhaps you could tell me what passage he is referring to.

If SDA’s here condemn the Mass, they are also rejecting the Gospel of John and the various references in the Epistles.

I don’t thik that I have seen anyone condemn the mass, but I don’t think it follows that if they did they would be rejecting the gospel of John or any other gospel or epistle.

Most of all, SDA’s are denying themselves Jesus Christ. The fact that we receive His body, blood, soul and divinity,

I vigorously disagree with this. Who are you to say that we deny Christ, because we don’t believe in your mass?

what most appropriate day to worship God than on Resurrection Sunday,your loss.

Gen2
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

On the day that He has blessed and sanctified. Sadly your loss.

The Church in time because both Gentile and Jewish Christians moved the worship to Sunday, it then became binding…and subsequently, was bound in heaven.

The CC does not have the authority to change a law made by God.

Catholicism is binding. Our beliefs and practices are binding.

Does this mean you are in bondadge?

We are bound to the greater reality of Jesus Christ.

If this were true you would keep His commandments.
Jn.14
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Can you understand why I personally am hurt and offended by the remarks of SDA’s towards the sacredness of Christ in my faith and in my church and its history and people, to deny and condemn us to hell? And your beliefs only 100 years old or so…where then was Christ???

I don’t believe that I have seen anyone make any remarks concerning the sacredness of Christ in your faith or in your church and I certainly have not seen anyone condemn you to hell. I think you are a little paranoid Kathleen.

In fact, Who is Christ? How do you define Him?

Jesus is the Son of the Living God Who did the Fathers will in dieing a shameful death that we might live.

The bottom line is Christology, not the non Christian Jewish sabbath.

Mark 2
27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

You mean this Sabbath?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Who are we to know the mind of God? why he has done what he does, and what he will do. It’s in the scriptures in Revelation.

Rev.5
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast **redeemed us to God by thy blood **out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Notice That even in the symbolic language of Revelation, John here depicts Jesus as a Lamb slain. Which means He is probably showing the wounds He recieved as a result of His sacrifice. Either the wounds a lamb recieved in the sacrificial rite or the wounds Jesus recieved on the cross. Why is He depicted this way? Because He "redeemed us to God by thy blood"

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Heb.10
8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

So again I ask. What’s the point of your bloodless sacrifice?

 

[Rexpi]

Hi Ron,

I wanted to ask you about the ceremonial sabbaths that the Jews used to observe, I know they were celebrated through the year but I dont have much information in regards of how many a year, what dates, reason or symbol of the same, do you still practicing that one? Is just out of curiosity mate
Oh also, I met this guy at the airport where I used to work before and he was a Messianic Jew, from South Africa, really nice guy and we used to talk during our breaks usually about God and other topics as well. He believed on the planets getting a lined and a planet called X that would destroy the earth somehow and he also believe that 2012 was a special year for the Mayas calendar thing… are you aware of this ideas? Or it was simply a personal thing?

 

[greggy53]

Rev.5
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast **redeemed us to God by thy blood **out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Notice That even in the symbolic language of Revelation, John here depicts Jesus as a Lamb slain. Which means He is probably showing the wounds He recieved as a result of His sacrifice. Either the wounds a lamb recieved in the sacrificial rite or the wounds Jesus recieved on the cross. Why is He depicted this way? Because He "redeemed us to God by thy blood"

“Probably showing his wounds” And why would he have to do that? Everyone in Heaven knows what he did? St John didn’t depict him this way, the holy spirit was showing St John how it was is and always will be in Heaven. Jesus stands before the throne of God as slain before the foundation of the world. As he always was and and will be time without end. Amen.

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Yes Jesus as both God and man was crucified on the cross once. But as we plainly see in Revelations he stands before his father with his sacrifice and the saints who offer up our prayers continually.

So again I ask. What’s the point of your bloodless sacrifice?

And I reply again. Why then is there an alter in Heaven before the throne of God as seen in chapter 8? What is the sole purpose of an altar? and why if there is no sacrifice in heaven would one be there?
Rev 8:[1] And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven, as it were for half an hour. [2] And I saw seven angels standing in the presence of God; and there were given to them seven trumpets. [3] And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. [4] And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. [5] And the angel took the censer, and filled it with the fire of the altar, and cast it on the earth, and there were thunders and voices and lightnings, and a great earthquake.

We Catholics see and experience this mystical bloodless sacrifice at Mass as the priest offers up our prayers with incense. The body and blood of our Lord is given to us that we may eat and drink his flesh as he commanded. One body, one blood, one Church, one bride united with the bridegroom.
Have you ever been to a Mass? Go and see. This is how the early Christians worshipped as well.
Justin Martyr a 1st century Christian wrote a detailed description of it.

 

[Javl]

“The tradition of the Apostles has been made manifest throughout the world, and can be found in every Church by those who wish to know the truth.” – Irenaeus, writing about A.D. 189, on how the unity of the Church was based on the Apostolic Tradition everywhere handed down (paradosis).

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem