Info on SDA

[Protestant101]

Well it is the same going around…and what is the point…if people are so entrenched with their convictions then it is bound to go no where.

Well’ with me, I don’t tend to get invloved in too many of the threads anymore. But the ones I do get involved with, like this, as much as they might be “repeats” I am finding that I either learn something new from you guys; or I learn something new from my own studies in relation to what I am studying here. I personally enjoy the discussions or following them. its a good learning tool for us all and doesn’t have to get personal.

I will say Greggy53, that I have offered some ideas, not in the form of definitive proof for I have no time lots of days for that; but simply ideas, none of which you have liked at all. But that dislike you are making public does not mean I “won’t answer.” It means you don’t like what I said.

This thread is supposed to be about “Info On SDA.” Have you got any? Or, do you need some? You have a standing invite to my church with me any Sabbath. I am not mad at anything you say, and I would love to pray with you and worship with you anytime…LOL, I would almost hate for you to come to one of our Churches, and experience being welcomed with loving arms. You would be so embarrassed at some of the things you have said, along with Kathleen G

 

[me_again]

hello me again. i have read many of E.G. Whites books. you are right. she was a prolific author. i am actually having a very good discussion with an adventist via private e-mail. and am also in dialouge with people from one of their newsletters i am receiving in my e-mail. currently, im discussing the manhattan proclamation with them, and discussing their views on revelation 12:14. and revelation and daniel in general. actually been a very good discussion. they are having one of their pastors answer me. should be interesting to see where this goes. there is a strong anti Catholic basis for their views. but the conversations im having with them are friendly enough. peace

The entire SDA doctrine is built upon a false prophecy about the return of Jesus in 1844. From that false prophecy sprang forth the SeventhDay Adventist Church. Subsequent false prophecies were built around the 1844 date to try and justify why Jesus didn’t come in that year e.g. Ellen G. White claimed that Jesus actually entered the Holy of Holies in heaven in the year 1844 – which is something that isn’t visible to mortal humans, but was allegedly made known to Ellen White by the Holy Spirit. It is the SDA doctrine of the “Sanctuary Cleansing.”

The false prediction that Jesus would come in 1844 is rubbish, along with all the other subsequent interpretations that were invented by Ellen White to justify the calculations of William Miller for 1844. Ellen White attempted to justify the calculations of William Miller by inventing the doctrine of the Sanctuary Cleaning for the year 1844. From this false prophecy of 1844 sprang forth the SeventhDay Adventist Church. It’s very foundation is built upon a false prophecy. If the very foundation is built upon a false prophecy, then what of the rest of it?

I speak in love.

 

[KathleenGee]

Protestant101, I live in one of the most bigoted SDA areas in the country…actually the region has had a history of bigotry against Catholics and minorities going back to over 100 years ago.

My friend entered your church all on the construct we didn’t use the Bible. She knew no history. She and her husband came across the country to get me to join and I wouldn’t. Her mother went to visit and the minister knew who she was and began insulting the Catholic Church right at their worship. She got up and as she was walking out, he began insulting her again.

Bigotry and ignorance.

And seeing your on going closed mindedness. You do not even realize how much Sacred Scripture permeates the entire church. The Church is the Word of God incarnated among the believers. The Messianic Jews have the same ongoing contentiousness against the Church as other protestants, as well as the same problems of people not agreeing on doctrine.

You don’t realize that your own sense of condemnation and superiority comes through. I could easily visit an SDA congregation. But if I was treated the way my friend’s mother was treated, I would give them a peace of my mind. I don’t think you have any intent at this time to take a time out from your indoctrination to pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you to the truth about the Church.

 

[greggy53]

I don’t think so. Since when does your church have the only source of loving outreach?

Loving outreach does not include branding those that worship God on Sunday as having the mark of the beast. It does not vilify the leaders of other Christian Churches and refer to them as the whore of Babylon. Loving outreach does not entail accusing fellow Christians of rewriting history and “suppressing” the true history of Sabbath Christians. I and others have given a lot of evidence in the form of links that verify these official SDA teachings. I have asked you and other SDA to provide evidence that this is not the case and you have never responded with any.

 

[greggy53]

A list of Papal successions proves absolutely nothing about “the first Church.”

Do you have evidence that another, different Church existed?, if so I’d like to hear it.

 

[KathleenGee]

Protestant101, I will come back with the Catholic doctrine of Jesus Christ. It will be somewhat long because I will also show how the Catholic understanding of Jesus Christ is connected to the life of the Church.

I will not bother much with history as you don’t relate to it.

 

[Protestant101]

Protestant101, I live in one of the most bigoted SDA areas in the country…actually the region has had a history of bigotry against Catholics and minorities going back to over 100 years ago.

My friend entered your church all on the construct we didn’t use the Bible. She knew no history. She and her husband came across the country to get me to join and I wouldn’t. Her mother went to visit and the minister knew who she was and began insulting the Catholic Church right at their worship. She got up and as she was walking out, he began insulting her again.

Bigotry and ignorance.

And seeing your on going closed mindedness. You do not even realize how much Sacred Scripture permeates the entire church. The Church is the Word of God incarnated among the believers. The Messianic Jews have the same ongoing contentiousness against the Church as other protestants, as well as the same problems of people not agreeing on doctrine.

You don’t realize that your own sense of condemnation and superiority comes through. I could easily visit an SDA congregation. But if I was treated the way my friend’s mother was treated, I would give them a peace of my mind. I don’t think you have any intent at this time to take a time out from your indoctrination to pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you to the truth about the Church.

There are cases in both of our respective denominations where bad experiences will happen/have happened. That does not mean that either of our Churches are to be portrayed in this light. It just means that some people don’t know how to be like Jesus, because they do not know Him, as it is our privilege to know Him. Adventists who adhere to the official teaching of the Church do not see Catholics the way you portray it. Jesus often confronted people with doctrines they did not like or agree with, yet He remained a caring loving Person throughout. I have seen both Catholics and Protestants, including Adventists do this.

 

[KathleenGee]

In regards to post 111, if you look at the Bible without church, no matter the historical sources, you will not accept any of them. If you look at the Bible literally and not in depth, you won’t be able to accept as well as recognize papal succession.

So that is why for me going back and forth doesn’t bear a fruit of understanding…more like an upmanship…

What I would like to know…see if this will get us to another plane…is what is the concept of Christ to the SDA’s…I reviewed my CC on Christ and it is very extensive in how the Church defines Him. It would take me time to put all out on a thread.

But it would be interesting and may be avoid ‘fruit loops’, my lingo…if we discussed Who Christ is, His mission, His nature…SDA and Catholic.

 

[Protestant101]

But it would be interesting and may be avoid ‘fruit loops’, my lingo…if we discussed Who Christ is, His mission, His nature…SDA and Catholic.

Well; “fruit loops” can be quite tasty, but you shouldn’t call them a meal. That would be a snack…Sometimes, people just “snack” on religion and the Bible; when it should be a main meal of the day.

Your proposal sounds good. I would be willing to discuss our respective concepts of Jesus. I am quite busy for 2 or 3 days after this short post; but I will look forward to this as a continuation of our discussion. I would like to leave you with one verse which I have come to really like - it says a lot about Jesus; and I would be interested to hear your understanding thereof:

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Jesus is our Sacrifice; and He is our Lord. Seventh-day Adventists believe this and reflect this fact in many of their doctrines and practices, as I am sure Catholics do.

When I come back; I will be happy to post more info on that for you. May God continue to bless us all as we fellowship online.

 

[Javl]

I have not been able to be around for a few days to respond to comments on my comments. But, it seems that, after reading the ensuing posts that greggy53 and Kathleen Gee have done quite well. Therefore there is no need for me to repeat or re-hash what has already been covered by them.

Thank you Kathleen and greggy.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[me_again]

The entire SDA doctrine is built upon a false prophecy about the return of Jesus in 1844. From that false prophecy sprang forth the SeventhDay Adventist Church. Subsequent false prophecies were built around the 1844 date to try and justify why Jesus didn’t come in that year e.g. Ellen G. White claimed that Jesus actually entered the Holy of Holies in heaven in the year 1844 – which is something that isn’t visible to mortal humans, but was allegedly made known to Ellen White by the Holy Spirit. It is the SDA doctrine of the “Sanctuary Cleansing.”

The false prediction that Jesus would come in 1844 is rubbish, along with all the other subsequent interpretations that were invented by Ellen White to justify the calculations of William Miller for 1844. Ellen White attempted to justify the calculations of William Miller by inventing the doctrine of the Sanctuary Cleaning for the year 1844. From this false prophecy of 1844 sprang forth the SeventhDay Adventist Church. It’s very foundation is built upon a false prophecy. If the very foundation is built upon a false prophecy, then what of the rest of it?

I speak in love.

Most of the SDAs that I’ve met are truly Christian e.g. they believe in Jesus with all their hearts, even if they believe in some false doctrines, such as the Sanctuary Cleansing of 1844 and soulsleep. To read more about these doctrines, go to Google and type in “Sanctuary Doctrine, 1844” and then type in “soulsleep.”

Fortunately, the requirements to enter heaven are pretty simple (thank goodness). If we had to be doctrinally sound in ALL of our belief systems, then none of us would make it into heaven. Thus, the requirements to enter His kingdom remain simple.

When we come across a Christian who believes in a false doctrine, such as the SDA “heavenly sanctuary” theory or their “soulsleep” theory – how do we treat them? We are required to treat them with charity, kindness and long-suffering. However, that doesn’t mean that you have to accept the false doctrines! It’s a fine line.

 

[Javl]

Most of the SDAs that I’ve met are truly Christian e.g. they believe in Jesus with all their hearts, even if they believe in some false doctrines, such as the Sanctuary Cleansing of 1844 and soulsleep. To read more about these doctrines, go to Google and type in “Sanctuary Doctrine, 1844” and then type in “soulsleep.”

Fortunately, the requirements to enter heaven are pretty simple (thank goodness). If we had to be doctrinally sound in ALL of our belief systems, then none of us would make it into heaven. Thus, the requirements to enter His kingdom remain simple.

When we come across a Christian who believes in a false doctrine, such as the SDA “heavenly sanctuary” theory or their “soulsleep” theory – how do we treat them? We are required to treat them with charity, kindness and long-suffering. However, that doesn’t mean that you have to accept the false doctrines! It’s a fine line.

I totaly agree with you. But, when they cross that line by telling you that your belief is not only in error but refuse to listen to you or your explanation, what then?

PAXDOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[KathleenGee]

The SDA’s believe like the Catholics do in the Holy Trinity?

May be let’s start with what we share in common belief.

I am going to be out as well. I might come in for a little bit…but what I have studied in Christology is quite a bit and it is also making time to condense our beliefs.

But I think if we can just focus on our understanding of Jesus and the beliefs that we share in common, this will be very good…considering the extenuating circumstances.

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Andrewv.
As has been pointed out earlier, it is not the lineage that makes any difference where salvation is concerned. The RCC cannot historically point to their popes as being connected through an unbroken line, since they also claim in this forum that even though the first Christians were in fact Jews, that they somehow were still “Catholic.” This is an historical fallacy. But, the line is not the issue. The teachings of Jesus are the issue. He changed nothing that had “gone out of (His) lips.”

Sorry Ron, but the CC is the only Church that can prove an unbroken line of succession. It is not some unproveable claim. Because there was only one Church for the first thousand years or so and that Church is known as the Catholic Church, anyone who was Christian was Catholic, regardless of when the term became common place. They belonged to one Church, whether Jew or Gentile.

The Catholics say that the Christians were “persecuted because they were Christians.” They were, in fact, persecuted because they observed and taught the same religious calendar as did the Jews. The Jews had often rebelled against Roman pagan rule. Their drive for freedom from Roman political rule is a large measure of why Jesus was crucified. The Jews were looking for a political deliverer, not a Messiah who would save them from their sins. They did not realize that had they accepted Jesus as Messiah, he, knowing that they loved Him, would have done as He did when He delivered Israel from Egyptian bondage.

I’m not sure what using the same calendar has to do with anything. Please explain.

Because the Jews did not trust God, or His Son, they not only accepted a murderer as a free man so that the Romans could crucify Jesus, they demanded that the Christian Jews rebell against Roman rule. Though the Christian Jews did not rebell against the Romans, the non-Christian Jews did. The Roman pagans knew little of either branch of Judaism. So, because of the outward appearance of nearly complete religious similarity between Christian Jews and non-Christian Jews, the Romans persecuted both.The non-Christian Jews rebelled at around 132 AD, until about 135 AD.

The Christians began, at that time to separate themselves, doctrinally where religious days and ways were concerned, from non-Christian Jews. Then, they began looking to ways to incorporate the surrounding pagan religions and people into their own brand of Christianity. The non-Christian Jews kept on observing the God-given religious days and ways as God gave them at Mount Sinai, to Moses. Then the Christians began to have religious councils so they could formalize what they were, in some cases, already observing.

Essentially, the above is how we got where we are today. The point here is that the non-Christian Jews need to learn of their own Messiah. We need to go back to the religious calendar that the Messiah gave at Mount Sinai. That is, the Jews need Jesus. We need the religious calendar of the Jews. God said of Himself that He is a jealous God, and does not change.

Do you have any sources for this information? It sounds to me like a very bias viewpoint.

 

[me_again]

I totaly agree with you. But, when they cross that line by telling you that your belief is not only in error but refuse to listen to you or your explanation, what then?

PAXDOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

That’s a very tough dichotomy. Many SDAs love Jesus. They conversely believe in false [ludicrous] false doctrines, such as the Sanctuary Cleansing Doctrine of 1844 and soulsleep. Believing in a false doctrine may not keep someone out of heaven, but it may keep others out of heaven – and that’s what is disconcerting. As an example:

“Soulsleep” is a main pillar of SDA theology and to be baptized, a candidate must accept this doctrine. Denying baptism to someone who believes in Jesus, simply because they don’t believe in the doctrine of soulsleep, seems strange.

Most SDAs believe in their theology with all their heart. They believe in their denominations interpretation of scripture. Okay, we agree that some of the pillars of their theology are in gross error, BUT I’m not sure how to handle it, except to show kindness to them, even though they are wrong.

Most denominations have people within them that strongly believe in certain theological viewpoints. However, Adventist theology has some aberrant beliefs that have historically never been accepted by Catholicism or Protestantism e.g. the Sanctuary Cleansing doctrine of 1844 and the soulsleep doctrine.

Prior to the publication of a book called The Kingdom of the Cults, Adventism was considered to be a cult. However, after the publication of that book, Adventism sort of became more mainstream or more accepted by other unknowing beguiled Protestants.

Just to reiterate: I love individual Adventists, but I hate the false SDA doctrines, such as the Sanctuary Cleansing of 1844 and soulsleep.

 

[Javl]

That’s a very tough dichotomy. Many SDAs love Jesus. They conversely believe in false [ludicrous] false doctrines, such as the Sanctuary Cleansing Doctrine of 1844 and soulsleep. Believing in a false doctrine may not keep someone out of heaven, but it may keep others out of heaven – and that’s what is disconcerting. As an example:

“Soulsleep” is a main pillar of SDA theology and to be baptized, a candidate must accept this doctrine. Denying baptism to someone who believes in Jesus, simply because they don’t believe in the doctrine of soulsleep, seems strange.

Most SDAs believe in their theology with all their heart. They believe in their denominations interpretation of scripture. Okay, we agree that some of the pillars of their theology are in gross error, BUT I’m not sure how to handle it, except to show kindness to them, even though they are wrong.

Most denominations have people within them that strongly believe in certain theological viewpoints. However, Adventist theology has some aberrant beliefs that have historically never been accepted by Catholicism or Protestantism e.g. the Sanctuary Cleansing doctrine of 1844 and the soulsleep doctrine.

Prior to the publication of a book called The Kingdom of the Cults, Adventism was considered to be a cult. However, after the publication of that book, Adventism sort of became more mainstream or more accepted by other unknowing beguiled Protestants.

Just to reiterate: I love individual Adventists, but I hate the false SDA doctrines, such as the Sanctuary Cleansing of 1844 and soulsleep.

Yes. I also accept individual SDAs as lovers of Jesus, but I refuse to recognize the SDA Church as legitimate but as very heretical. And yes, it is NOT a cult, but it most assuredly borders on becoming one. Its teachings on the sanctuary and soulsleep are not the only erroneous ones, but their insistence on sabatarianism and the origin of Christ as the archangel Michael, plus other erroneous teachings, are very heretical even though the scriptures ( Bible ) say otherwise.

Let us pray that the SDAs wake up to the Truth.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

PAX DOMINI

 

[me_again]

Yes. I also accept individual SDAs as lovers of Jesus, but I refuse to recognize the SDA Church as legitimate but as very heretical. And yes, it is NOT a cult, but it most assuredly borders on becoming one. Its teachings on the sanctuary and soulsleep are not the only erroneous ones, but their insistence on sabatarianism and the origin of Christ as the archangel Michael, plus other erroneous teachings, are very heretical even though the scriptures ( Bible ) say otherwise.

Let us pray that the SDAs wake up to the Truth.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

PAX DOMINI

You’re right, the following SDA doctrinal pillars are false**:*** The 1844 Sanctuary Cleansing doctrine e.g. the correct notion that the Lord Jesus Christ entered heaven after His resurrection 2000 years ago, coupled with the false doctrine that He did not enter the heavenly “holy of holies” until the year 1844, whereupon He purportedly began judging the lives of the living and the dead in 1844 – and he has purportedly been doing so from 1844 until now → all according to the teachings of Ellen G. White, who is now deceased.
.

• The Soulsleep doctrine e.g. the notion that**:**
  .

1. All humans temporarily cease-to-exist upon the mortal death of the body until resurrection day e.g. the SDA theology teaches that when the mortal body dies, the man, woman or child no longer has consciousness until their mortal bodies are resurrected.
   .
2. SDA doctrine teaches that when the mortal body of Jesus died on the cross, He ceased to exist until He was resurrected three days later. This theology is patently a false doctrine because the Lord and Creator of the universe cannot “cease to exist” and cannot “cease to have consciousness.”
   .

• Ellen White taught that just prior to the Second Coming of Jesus that anyone who worships God on the Jewish Saturday sabbath will be persecuted; and those who choose to attend church on Sunday in lieu of the Jewish Saturday sabbath have, by default, received the mark of the beast by**:**
  .
  
  (2) as demonstrated by their attending church on Sunday e.g. (the right hand) . .
  .
  (In the enclosed link, SDAs interpret “frontlets” as “mental assent” or a person’s mental choice to attend church on Saturday or Sunday; and they interpret the “right hand” as what a person actually does or, more specifically, whether a person attends church on Saturday with them or on Sunday with Protestant or Catholic churches).
  These wily interpretations of scriptures are demonic in origin and are heretical false doctrines that some Adventists have inadvertently fallen prey to. The devil created these false doctrines to create division.

The sabbath issue garners the most attention, but one must dig deeper then that to unearth the origin of this false doctrine, such as examining the Sanctuary Cleansing doctrine of 1844 because from this false doctrine springs forth the entire Adventist denomination. The pillars of the Adventist denomination are built upon sand.

The Adventist theologians vigorously fight for the Sanctuary Cleansing doctrine of 1844 because if it is discredited, then the entire foundation of the denomination is proven to be built upon heresy. Pastors’ salaries, denomination salaries, incoming SDA tithes and millions of dollars are now jeopardized. Peoples lives and livelihoods are now connected with maintaining these false doctrines. Once money becomes involved, the devil now has a stronghold.

Just to reiterate**:** I love the SDAs who love Jesus, but I hate the demonically inspired false doctrines of the SDA church.

 

[Javl]

You’re right, the following SDA doctrinal pillars are false**:*** The 1844 Sanctuary Cleansing doctrine e.g. the correct notion that the Lord Jesus Christ entered heaven after His resurrection 2000 years ago, coupled with the false doctrine that He did not enter the heavenly “holy of holies” until the year 1844, whereupon He purportedly began judging the lives of the living and the dead in 1844 – and he has purportedly been doing so from 1844 until now → all according to the teachings of Ellen G. White, who is now deceased.
.

• The Soulsleep doctrine e.g. the notion that**:**
  .

1. All humans temporarily cease-to-exist upon the mortal death of the body until resurrection day e.g. the SDA theology teaches that when the mortal body dies, the man, woman or child no longer has consciousness until their mortal bodies are resurrected.
   .
2. SDA doctrine teaches that when the mortal body of Jesus died on the cross, He ceased to exist until He was resurrected three days later. This theology is patently a false doctrine because the Lord and Creator of the universe cannot “cease to exist” and cannot “cease to have consciousness.”
   .

• Ellen White taught that just prior to the Second Coming of Jesus that anyone who worships God on the Jewish Saturday sabbath will be persecuted; and those who choose to attend church on Sunday in lieu of the Jewish Saturday sabbath have, by default, received the mark of the beast by**:**
  .
  (1) a mental assent e.g. “frontlets.”
  .
  (2) as demonstrated by their attending church on Sunday e.g. (the right hand).
  .
  (In the enclosed link, SDAs interpret “frontlets” as “mental assent” or a person’s mental choice to attend church on Saturday or Sunday; and they interpret the “right hand” as what a person actually does or, more specifically, whether a person attends church on Saturday with them or on Sunday with Protestant or Catholic churches).
  These wily interpretations of scriptures are demonic in origin and are heretical false doctrines that some Adventists have inadvertently fallen prey to. The devil created these false doctrines to create division.

The sabbath issue garners the most attention, but one must dig deeper then that to unearth the origin of this false doctrine, such as examining the Sanctuary Cleansing doctrine of 1844 because from this false doctrine springs forth the entire Adventist denomination. The pillars of the Adventist denomination are built upon sand.

The Adventist theologians vigorously fight for the Sanctuary Cleansing doctrine of 1844 because if it is discredited, then the entire foundation of the denomination is proven to be built upon heresy. Pastors’ salaries, denomination salaries, incoming SDA tithes and millions of dollars are now jeopardized. Peoples lives and livelihoods are now connected with maintaining these false doctrines. Once money becomes involved, the devil now has a stronghold.

Just to reiterate**:** I love the SDAs who love Jesus, but I hate the demonically inspired false doctrines of the SDA church.

Your statements have all the truth in them. Remember that Satan appears many times as an angel of light. He has an almost perfect knowledge of the scriptures and twists and uses them to his advantage to destroy Jesus Christ’s true Church and to try to defeat even God Himself. As long as we keep this in mind and pray, Satan can never disuade us to abandon Jesus’ Church, or even defeat us. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Protestant101]

These wily interpretations of scriptures are demonic in origin and are heretical false doctrines that some Adventists have inadvertently fallen prey to. The devil created these false doctrines to create division.

Thankyou for your opinions, kind Sir. May I ask you to clarify please? I was told by people on this forum that Adventists are not “heretics,” rather, they are “separated brethren.” Can you explain please?

 

[wanner47]

Thankyou for your opinions, kind Sir. May I ask you to clarify please? I was told by people on this forum that Adventists are not “heretics,” rather, they are “separated brethren.” Can you explain please?

Notice he said that the DOCTRINES were heretical, not the people that held those doctrines. One can hold a heretical doctrine without being a heretic.