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magdelaine
Guest
Uhhh, wasn’t this in reference to atheists (those that don’t believe in God?)
Kujo313's Assertions About Catholic Marian Beliefs (Isis!?...Goddess!?)
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MrS
Guest
read all the Psalm… it goes on to distinguish TWO groups of people… the “bad guys” if you will who have all sinned…
and MY people…
Paul was quoting from this phrase, not to give you a verse to use to “prove” that Mary was a sinner. The Jews knew the OT, and thus knew what Paul was refering to.
Thank you for disproving your point.
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MrS
Guest
not rude… just trying to save you from making more mistakes with erroneous theology. By taking a break (from posting) you have a chance to read all of Psalm 14… Your “break” was apparently not long enough.
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Nicene
Guest
Yes it is, from v1 of Psalm 14. If pirate is honest he/she will admit that.Uhhh, wasn’t this in reference to atheists (those that don’t believe in God?)
However most protestants read Paul incorrectly:
For there is no distinction; 23: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
It does not read Everyone sinned “without exception” it says without distinction, meaning both to Jews and Gentiles. If Paul meant without exception as some protestants are taught it also encompasses Jesus, and every new born baby that has ever been born. Babies can’t commit sin (though I know a few parents who consider a dirty diaper to be one
) Jesus, and definately babies hardly fall short of the glory of God.Under the auspices of all have sinned without exception that must include the above examples. The only way to get around that is to say that Jesus wasn’t really a human being, babies have the capacity to commit sin.
If those protestants who do believe this (not all do) are honest, sinse the phrase means as they have been told “without exception” then Christ has to be a sinner as well as babies, regardless of what scripture says about Christ not having sinned. It cannot be both ways, unless Christ isn’t 100% human.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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pirate87
Guest
I would have quoted everything, but it would fit…
I Timothy 2:1-2 talks about how prayers should be made on the behalf of all men (ie. you should pray for all men), not that all men can talk directly to God the Father and not be mediated through God the Son.
I Timothy 2:3 talks about this prayer being acceptable by God, not that anyone is worthy enough to speak directly to God the Father without being mediated through God the Son.
I Timothy 2:5 doesn’t say that Jesus is the SOLE mediator, it says that he is the ONLY mediator.
I Corinthians 3:9 talks about Christian being God’s fellow workers in leading others to Christ. If this verse was held in the context of the surrounding passage, it is easily seen that this is what it was talking about. It doesn’t say that we are God’s fellow workers to be able to skip Jesus’ mediation and talk directly to God.
Mark 16:20 again is talking about how they were told to go tell everyone the miracle of the risen Savior, and how the Lord was going to affirm all that they were saying by signs. This has nothing to do with mediated or unmediated prayer: “And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”
Romans 8:28 “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.” This verse has nothing to do with God working WITH us, it simply says that all this work together for God’s purpose, not that God works together with us.
2 Corinthians 6:1 again relates to the same thing I was talking about before.
Hebrews 12:1 has nothing to do with this topic.
1 Peter 2:5 proves my point: “you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 1:4-6 “4. John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
5. and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood-- 6. and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father–to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.”
This is to become “priests” after we are resurrected into heaven after we have received our glorified bodies.
James 5:14-16 “14. Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
15. and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
16. Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.”
This passage is talking about people praying for other people, this does not mean that they do not still have to be mediated through Jesus.
Proverbs 15:8, 29: Yes, Jesus does hear our prayers!
1 Timothy 2:5-6 “5. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6. who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.”
These two verses have nothing to do with our mediating to talk to God. He does not offer us his place of mediation. It still says ONE mediator as it did before.
I hope this clears it up!
In Christ,
pirate87
I Timothy 2:1-2 talks about how prayers should be made on the behalf of all men (ie. you should pray for all men), not that all men can talk directly to God the Father and not be mediated through God the Son.
I Timothy 2:3 talks about this prayer being acceptable by God, not that anyone is worthy enough to speak directly to God the Father without being mediated through God the Son.
I Timothy 2:5 doesn’t say that Jesus is the SOLE mediator, it says that he is the ONLY mediator.
I Corinthians 3:9 talks about Christian being God’s fellow workers in leading others to Christ. If this verse was held in the context of the surrounding passage, it is easily seen that this is what it was talking about. It doesn’t say that we are God’s fellow workers to be able to skip Jesus’ mediation and talk directly to God.
Mark 16:20 again is talking about how they were told to go tell everyone the miracle of the risen Savior, and how the Lord was going to affirm all that they were saying by signs. This has nothing to do with mediated or unmediated prayer: “And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”
Romans 8:28 “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.” This verse has nothing to do with God working WITH us, it simply says that all this work together for God’s purpose, not that God works together with us.
2 Corinthians 6:1 again relates to the same thing I was talking about before.
Hebrews 12:1 has nothing to do with this topic.
1 Peter 2:5 proves my point: “you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 1:4-6 “4. John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
5. and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood-- 6. and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father–to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.”
This is to become “priests” after we are resurrected into heaven after we have received our glorified bodies.
James 5:14-16 “14. Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
15. and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
16. Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.”
This passage is talking about people praying for other people, this does not mean that they do not still have to be mediated through Jesus.
Proverbs 15:8, 29: Yes, Jesus does hear our prayers!
1 Timothy 2:5-6 “5. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6. who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.”
These two verses have nothing to do with our mediating to talk to God. He does not offer us his place of mediation. It still says ONE mediator as it did before.
I hope this clears it up!
In Christ,
pirate87
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MrS
Guest
Thanks, I am/was too tired to give the detail that I knew you would… picking up my slack again:thumbsup:Yes it is, from v1 of Psalm 14. If pirate is honest he/she will admit that.
However most protestants read Paul incorrectly:
For there is no distinction; 23: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
It does not read Everyone sinned “without exception” it says without distinction, meaning both to Jews and Gentiles. If Paul meant without exception as some protestants are taught it also encompasses Jesus, and every new born baby that has ever been born. Babies can’t commit sin (though I know a few parents who consider a dirty diaper to be one
Under the auspices of all have sinned without exception that must include the above examples. The only way to get around that is to say that Jesus wasn’t really a human being, babies have the capacity to commit sin.
If those protestants who do believe this (not all do) are honest, sinse the phrase means as they have been told “without exception” then Christ has to be a sinner as well as babies, regardless of what scripture says about Christ not having sinned. It cannot be both ways, unless Christ isn’t 100% human.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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MrS
Guest
what site do you think the pirate is pirating from?
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Nicene
Guest
Then quit praying for people if you are honest.
What is more interesting, all those pople who made those prayers in the OT did so in vain because God didn’t hear them for 4000 years.
Go figure.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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LilyM
Guest
I know … when Moses turned the wrath of God away from the Israelites after they worshipped the golden calf it was because Jesus travelled back hundreds of years in a time machine to be there to mediate for him when he did it because NO-ONE else can possibly mediate in any fashion
:whacky:
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Nicene
Guest
Here is something I would like our protestant brothers to answer. Even the pharisees knew that those in heaven could hear you because what do they say when Jesus quotes Psalm 22 from the cross?
**Mt 27:46: And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, la’ma sabach-tha’ni?” that is, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
47: And some of the bystanders hearing it said, “This man is calling Eli’jah.”
**
Where is Elijah?
In addition, Jesus himself teaches the Lords Prayer on the Sermon on the Mount, which is the beginning of his ministry, which begins Our Father, who art in heaven.. This is almost 3 years before his death on the cross. Did Jesus teach people to pray in vain?
If one doesn’t know what Jesus is actually mediating, (the role of the high priest and the sacrifice) how can one believe in him?
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
**Mt 27:46: And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, la’ma sabach-tha’ni?” that is, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
47: And some of the bystanders hearing it said, “This man is calling Eli’jah.”
**
Where is Elijah?
In addition, Jesus himself teaches the Lords Prayer on the Sermon on the Mount, which is the beginning of his ministry, which begins Our Father, who art in heaven.. This is almost 3 years before his death on the cross. Did Jesus teach people to pray in vain?
If one doesn’t know what Jesus is actually mediating, (the role of the high priest and the sacrifice) how can one believe in him?
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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MrS
Guest
why mediate… weren’t those liberals giving us the first liturgy-in-the-round experience:nerd::whacky:I know … when Moses turned the wrath of God away from the Israelites after they worshipped the golden calf it was because Jesus travelled back hundreds of years in a time machine to be there to mediate for him when he did it because NO-ONE else can possibly mediate in any fashion
:whacky:
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stella95
Guest
Why wouldn’t people in heaven be able to hear us? I mean they might not want to hear us, I’m sure they have better things to do, but why wouldn’t they be able to hear us?
I thought that was what made the saints special. They were such good people that they still prayed for those in trouble on earth.
I thought that was what made the saints special. They were such good people that they still prayed for those in trouble on earth.
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pirate87
Guest
Excuse me? who are you to judge me? I actually wrote that (besides the verses) myself!
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MrS
Guest
when the stewards are commended for their increase in talents, and they are “…welcomed into the Kingdom…” they are told they have more to do… can’t be for each other, they are already in heaven… can’t be for the damned… they are hopeless…
Must be for us:clapping:
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pirate87
Guest
No, because they were praying after sacrifices! Don’t you see? We don’t have to do a sacrifice everytime we want to pray anymore because Jesus was our eternal sacrifice. God heard them, if they made a sacrifice.
I don’t know what you mean: “Then quit praying for people if you are honest.” I am praying for them through Jesus Christ the mediator to God the Father.
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pirate87
Guest
Now that’s just stupid…don’t act like a 5 year old. Just read what I wrote in response to this quote.I know … when Moses turned the wrath of God away from the Israelites after they worshipped the golden calf it was because Jesus travelled back hundreds of years in a time machine to be there to mediate for him when he did it because NO-ONE else can possibly mediate in any fashion
By the way…Jesus wouldn’t have to use a time machine. Jesus is not bound by time as we are.
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LilyM
Guest
I don’t know of any indication in the Bible that Moses ever sacrificed anything when he talked to God. It just happened.
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pirate87
Guest
As the Bible says, “Eli, Eli, la’ma sabach-tha’ni?” THAT IS, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME?”
As said in the Bible, He was calling for God, not Elijah. Do you think that Jesus would call Elijah his God?
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pirate87
Guest
If every detail was written down in the Bible, I do believe that it would be much larger than it is… :bible1:
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Nicene
Guest
And another, Jesus himself tells the apostles to pray and he isn’t crusified yet:
**Lk 22:45: And when he rose from prayer, he came to the disciples and found them sleeping for sorrow,
46: and he said to them, “Why do you sleep? Rise and pray that you may not enter into temptation.” **
Again is Jesus telling them to pray in vain? God won’t hear them? Jesus seems to think they can, why don’t those protestants who object think they can’t?
These are littered all over the OT and NT, Psalms in particular.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
**Lk 22:45: And when he rose from prayer, he came to the disciples and found them sleeping for sorrow,
46: and he said to them, “Why do you sleep? Rise and pray that you may not enter into temptation.” **
Again is Jesus telling them to pray in vain? God won’t hear them? Jesus seems to think they can, why don’t those protestants who object think they can’t?
These are littered all over the OT and NT, Psalms in particular.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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