Kujo313's Assertions About Catholic Marian Beliefs (Isis!?...Goddess!?)

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pirate87:
As the Bible says, “Eli, Eli, la’ma sabach-tha’ni?” THAT IS, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME?”
As said in the Bible, He was calling for God, not Elijah. Do you think that Jesus would call Elijah his God?
The point is the people around him thought he was calling Elijah - which means either they prayed to/for the dead or he had done so in the past (remember he did appear with Jesus at the Transfiguration).

Besides which, how do you account for the story of Lazarus and the rich man? Remember even from hell he can pray - and not to God directly, but to Abraham. And for his family as well as himself. Mind you he doesn’t get the answer he wants, but I guess if you’re in hell you don’t.
 
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pirate87:
As the Bible says, “Eli, Eli, la’ma sabach-tha’ni?” THAT IS, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME?”
As said in the Bible, He was calling for God, not Elijah. Do you think that Jesus would call Elijah his God?
And the blind shall not see, and the deaf shall not hear 😦

May God bless you and grant you untold graces.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
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Nicene:
And another, Jesus himself tells the apostles to pray and he isn’t crusified yet:

**Lk 22:45: And when he rose from prayer, he came to the disciples and found them sleeping for sorrow,
46: and he said to them, “Why do you sleep? Rise and pray that you may not enter into temptation.” **

Again is Jesus telling them to pray in vain? God won’t hear them? Jesus seems to think they can, why don’t those protestants who object think they can’t?

These are littered all over the OT and NT, Psalms in particular.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
hmmm…let’s see…if God [the Son] told you to pray, don’t you think that then it would be ok? I don’t think I would question Him.
 
Kujo, you know knothing about building. Jesus was the HEADstone, at the top. The rock that the Church is BUILT ON (the bedrock) is at the foundation - that’s Peter. Christ is our head, in the position of honour, but Peter is a necessary source of our strength and stability as well.

Matt 21:42
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘ The stone which the builders rejectedHas become the chief cornerstone.This was the LORD’s doing,And it is marvelous in our eyes’?
Mark 12:10; Luke 20:17; Acts 4:11 (<== Peter is quoted as saying that JESUS is the cornerstone!)
Have you not even read this Scripture: ‘ The stone which the builders rejectedHas become the chief cornerstone.

Don’t forget that Peter said more than once in his letters that Jesus is the cornerstone.

Romans 15:20
And so I have made it my aim to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build on another man’s foundation,

1Cor 3:11
For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

But what does Paul know? He wasn’t the Pope!
Why are you treating those closest to Jesus who he loved like brothers like they’re just so much chopped liver when HE so clearly didn’t?
I’m just following Jesus like they did.
You’re taking the position that because they didn’t specifically write down that they talked to Mary or believed in praying to the dead that they didn’t do it.
Walk carefully! We’re talking about Salvation. We’re talking about being with God. Jesus stressed that over and over. IF Mary was to be treated higher, Jesus would’ve stressed it. The disciples would’ve stressed it.
Rev 21:14
Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
All twelve! Not just one before the others. Twelve foundations laid on the Cornerstone, Jesus.
As I said before, the Kingdom of Heaven is not a communist collective.
Exodus 20:5; 34:14. Deu 4:24; 5:9; 6:15
I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God.
They didn’t all receive equal powers or equal treatment or equal status.
Matthew 20
No matter when the laborers was hired, they all got paid the same.
Rev 3:21
To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
 
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LilyM:
The point is the people around him thought he was calling Elijah - which means either they prayed to/for the dead or he had done so in the past (remember he did appear with Jesus at the Transfiguration).

Besides which, how do you account for the story of Lazarus and the rich man? Remember even from hell he can pray - and not to God directly, but to Abraham. And for his family as well as himself. Mind you he doesn’t get the answer he wants, but I guess if you’re in hell you don’t.
These are eternal spiritual beings, not humans on earth.
 
Nicene said:
And the blind shall not see, and the deaf shall not hear 😦

May God bless you and grant you untold graces.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

What??? :confused: :confused:
 
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pirate87:
As the Bible says, “Eli, Eli, la’ma sabach-tha’ni?” THAT IS, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME?”
As said in the Bible, He was calling for God, not Elijah. Do you think that Jesus would call Elijah his God?
Do you know why Jesus says what he does? Do you know what He is quoting, or even when He says “Into thy hands I commit my Spirit”?

Did God really forsake Christ? Did Jesus really believe that? He lost his faith?

You’ll have to look beyond the words and meditate.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
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pirate87:
hmmm…let’s see…if God [the Son] told you to pray, don’t you think that then it would be ok? I don’t think I would question Him.
You apparently do. So no one could pray unless Jesus told them to? Again, that negates all of the OT. Fascinating. 😦

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
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Nicene:
You apparently do. So no one could pray unless Jesus told them to? Again, that negates all of the OT. Fascinating. 😦

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
the sacrifices!
 
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pirate87:
the sacrifices!
Not sure what you are saying here but what does the NT tell us about those sacrifices?

As well, if no one could talk to God, and God turned a blind eye and didn’t hear them, that means none of the OT is inspired but men just made it up.

God wasn’t hearing or talking to them. God did not acutally walk and talk with Abraham, Noah, Adam, Moses, Eliah or any of the prophets etc.

How does one claim to know Jesus and not know what He died for? I am not trying to be insensitive or rude, but step back from the arguement for arguements sake and think. The hardest thing to do is humble oneself and say; I may be wrong.

You are in my prayers and may Jesus bless you.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
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kujo313:
Kujo, you know knothing about building. Jesus was the HEADstone, at the top. The rock that the Church is BUILT ON (the bedrock) is at the foundation - that’s Peter. Christ is our head, in the position of honour, but Peter is a necessary source of our strength and stability as well.

Matt 21:42
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘ The stone which the builders rejectedHas become the chief cornerstone.This was the LORD’s doing,And it is marvelous in our eyes’?
Mark 12:10; Luke 20:17; Acts 4:11 (<== Peter is quoted as saying that JESUS is the cornerstone!)
Have you not even read this Scripture: ‘ The stone which the builders rejectedHas become the chief cornerstone.

Don’t forget that Peter said more than once in his letters that Jesus is the cornerstone.

Romans 15:20
And so I have made it my aim to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build on another man’s foundation,

1Cor 3:11
For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

But what does Paul know? He wasn’t the Pope!
Why are you treating those closest to Jesus who he loved like brothers like they’re just so much chopped liver when HE so clearly didn’t?
I’m just following Jesus like they did.
You’re taking the position that because they didn’t specifically write down that they talked to Mary or believed in praying to the dead that they didn’t do it.
Walk carefully! We’re talking about Salvation. We’re talking about being with God. Jesus stressed that over and over. IF Mary was to be treated higher, Jesus would’ve stressed it. The disciples would’ve stressed it.
Rev 21:14
Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
All twelve! Not just one before the others. Twelve foundations laid on the Cornerstone, Jesus.
As I said before, the Kingdom of Heaven is not a communist collective.
Exodus 20:5; 34:14. Deu 4:24; 5:9; 6:15
I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God.
They didn’t all receive equal powers or equal treatment or equal status.
Matthew 20
No matter when the laborers was hired, they all got paid the same.
Rev 3:21
To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
That would have to be one awfully crowded throne if everyone is sitting in exactly the same spot 😃

So tell me exactly what you think Jesus meant when he said TO PETER ‘YOU (singular) are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church?’ and to Peter (no one else) said ‘feed my lambs, feed my sheep’ and ‘I will give YOU (singular) the Keys of the Kingdom’. It seems pretty clear that he was giving Peter special status.
 
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Nicene:
Do you know why Jesus says what he does? Do you know what He is quoting, or even when He says “Into thy hands I commit my Spirit”?

Did God really forsake Christ? Did Jesus really believe that? He lost his faith?

You’ll have to look beyond the words and meditate.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
Or go to the Early Fathers…much more credible and authoritative than any new denomination interpretation.
  1. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land to the ninth hour.
  2. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
  3. Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calls for Elias.
  4. And straightway one of them ran, and took a spurge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
  5. The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
  6. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

    PSEUDO-CHRYS. Creation could not bear the outrage offered to the Creator; whence the sun withdrew his beams, that he might not look upon the crime of these impious men. ORIGEN; Some take occasion from this text to cavil against the truth of the Gospel. For indeed from the beginning eclipses of the sun have happened in their proper seasons; but such an eclipse as would be brought about by the ordinary course of the seasons could only be at such time as the sun and moon come together, when the moon passing beneath intercepts the sun’s rays. But at the time of Christ’s passion it is clear that this was not the case, because it was the paschal feast, which it was customary to celebrate when the moon was full. Some believers, desiring to produce some answer to this objection, have said, that this eclipse in accordance with the other prodigies was an exception to the established laws of nature. DIONYS. When we were together at Heliopolis, we both observed such an interference of the moon with the sun quite unexpectedly, for it was not the season of their conjunction; and then from the ninth hour until evening, beyond the power of nature, continuing in a direct line between us and the sun. And this obscuration we saw begin from the east, and so pass to the extreme of the sun’s orb, and again return back the same way, being thus the very reverse of an ordinary eclipse.** CHRYS**. This darkness lasted three hours, whereas an eclipse is transient, and not enduring, as they know who have studied the matter.
    \
con’t
 
ORIGEN; Against this the children of this world urge, How is it that of the Greeks and Barbarians, who have made observations of these things, not one has recorded so remarkable a phenomenon as this? Phlegon indeed has recorded such an event as happening in the time of Tiberius Caesar, but he has not mentioned that it was at the full moon. I think therefore that, like the other miracles which took place at the Passion, the rending of the veil, and the earthquake, this also was confined to Jerusalem. Or, if any one chooses, it may be extended to the whole of Judea; as in the book of Kings, Abdias said to Elias, As the Lord your God lives, there is no nation or kingdom where my Lord has not sent to seek you, meaning that he had been sought in the countries round about Judea. Accordingly we might suppose many and dense clouds to have been brought together over Jerusalem and Judea, enough to produce thick darkness from the sixth to the ninth hour. For we understand that there were two creatures created on the sixth day the beasts before the sixth hour, man on the sixth; and therefore it was fitting that He who died for the salvation of man should be crucified at the sixth hour, and for this cause that darkness should be over the whole earth from the sixth to the ninth hour. And as by Moses stretching out his hands towards heaven darkness was brought upon the Egyptians who held the servants of God in bondage, so likewise when at the sixth hour Christ stretched out his hands on the cross to heaven, darkness came over all the people who had cried out, Crucify him, and they were deprived of all light as a sign of the darkness that should come, and that should envelop the whole people of the Jews. Further, under Moses there was darkness over the land of Egypt three days, but all the children of Israel had light; so under Christ there was darkness over all Judea for three hours, because for their sins they were deprived of the light of God the Father, the splendor of Christ, and the illumination of the Holy Spirit. But over the rest of the earth there is light, which every where illumines the Church of God in Christ. And if to the ninth hour there was darkness over Judea, it is manifest that light returned to them again after that; so, when the fullness of, the Gentiles shall have entered in, then all Israel shall be saved.
CHRYS. Or otherwise; The wonder was in this, that the darkness was over the whole earth, which had never come to pass before, save only in Egypt what time the Passover was celebrated; for the things done then were a type of these. And consider the time when this is done; at mid-day, while over the whole world it was day, that all the dwellers on the earth might perceive it. This is the sign He promised to them that asked Him, An evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign, and there shall no sign be given it save the sign of Jonas the Prophet, alluding to His cross and resurrection. And it was a much greater marvel that this should come to pass when He was fastened to the cross, than when hen He was walking at large on the earth. Surely here was enough to convert them, not by the greatness of the miracle alone, but because it was done not till after all these instances of their frenzy, when their passion was past, when they had uttered all that they would, and were satiated with taunts and gibes. But how did they not all marvel and conclude Him to be God? Because the human race was at that time plunged in exceeding sluggishness and vice, and this wonder was but one, and quickly past away, and none cared to search out its cause, or perhaps they attributed it to eclipse, or some other physical consequence. And on this account He shortly afterwards lifts up His voice to show that He yet lives, and Himself wrought this miracle; And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, &c.
 
JEROME; He employed the beginning of the twenty-first Psalm. That clause in the middle of the verse, Look upon me, is superfluous; for the Hebrew has only ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani,’ that is, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? It is impiety therefore to think that this Psalm was spoken in the character of David or Esther or Mardocheus, when passages taken out of it by the Evangelist are understood of the Savior; as, They parted my garments among them, and, They pierced my hands.
CHRYS. He uttered this word of prophecy, that He might bear witness to the very last hour to the Old Testament, and that they might see that He honors the Father, and is not against God. And therefore too, He used the Hebrew tongue, that what He said might be intelligible to them.
ORIGEN; But it must be asked, What means this, that Christ is forsaken of God? Some, unable to explain how Christ could be forsaken of God, say that this was spoken out of humility. But you will be able clearly to comprehend His meaning if you make a comparison of the glory which He had with the Father with the shame which He despised when He endured the cross.
HILARY; From these words heretical spirits contend either that God the Word was entirely absorbed into the soul at the time it discharged the function of a soul in quickening the body; or that Christ could not have been born man, because the Divine Word dwelt in Him after the manner of a prophetical spirit. As though Jesus Christ was a man of ordinary soul and body, having His beginning then when He began to be man, and thus now deserted upon the withdrawal of the protection of God’s word cries out, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Or at least that the nature of the Word being transmuted into soul, Christ, who had depended in all things upon His Father’s support, now deserted and left to death, mourns over this desertion, and pleads with Him departing. But amidst these impious and feeble opinions, the faith of the Church imbued with Apostolic teaching does not sever Christ that He should be considered as Son of God and not as Son of Man. The complaint of His being deserted is the weakness of the dying man; the promise of Paradise is the kingdom of the living God. You have Him complaining that He is left to death, and thus He is Man; you have Him as He is dying declaring that He reigns in Paradise; and thus He is God. Wonder not then at the humility of these words, when you know the form of a servant, and see the offense of the cross. GLOSS. God is said to have forsaken Him in death because He exposed Him to the power of His persecutors; He withdrew His protection, but did not break the union.
ORIGEN; When He saw darkness over the whole land of Judea He said this, Father, why have you forsaken me? meaning, Why have you given Me over exhausted to such sufferings? that the people who were honored by Thee may receive the things that they have dared against Me, and should be deprived of the light of Your countenance. Also, you have forsaken Me for the salvation of the Gentiles. But what good have they of the Gentiles who have believed done, that I should deliver them from the evil one by shedding My precious blood on the ground for them? Or will they, for whom I suffer these things, ever do aught worthy of them? Or foreseeing the sins of those for whom He suffered, He said, Why have you forsaken me? that I should become as one that gathers stubble in the harvest, and gleanings in the vintage. But you must not imagine that the Savior said this after the manner of men by reason of the misery which encompassed Him on the cross; for if you take it so you will not hear His loud voice and mighty words which point to something great hidden.
 
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pirate87:
the sacrifices!
There is a huge - mega - “you can’t miss it” Sacrifice in the New Testament.

Did you think sacrifice happened only in the Old Testament?

Look again.
 
RABAN. Or, The Savior said this as bearing about with Him our feelings, who when placed in dangers think ourselves forsaken by God. Human nature was forsaken by God because of its sins, and the Son of God becoming our Advocate laments the misery of those whose guilt He took upon Him; therein showing how they who sin ought to mourn, when He who never sinned did thus mourn.

JEROME; It follows, Some of them that stood by, &c. some, not all; whom I suppose to have been Roman soldiers, ignorant of Hebrew, but from the words Eli, Eli, thought that He called upon Elias. But if we prefer to suppose them Jews, they do it after their usual manner, that they may accuse the Lord of weakness in thus invoking Elias.
PSEUDO-CHRYS. Thus the Source of living water is made to drink vinegar, the Giver of honey is fed with gall; Forgiveness is scourged, Acquittance is condemned, Majesty is mocked, Virtue ridiculed, the Bestower of showers is repaid with spitting.
HILARY; Vinegar is wine, which has turned sour either from neglect, or the fault of the vessel. Wine is the honor of immortality, or virtue. When this then had been turned sour in Adam, He took and drunk it at the hands of the Gentiles. It is offered to Him on a reed and a spurge; that is, He took from the bodies of the Gentiles immortality spoiled and corrupted, and transfused in Himself into a mixture of immortality that in us which was spoiled.
REMIG. Or otherwise; The Jews as degenerating from the wine of the Patriarchs and Prophets were vinegar; they had deceitful hearts, like to the winding holes and hollows in sponge. By the reed, Sacred Scripture is denoted, which was fulfilled in this action; for as we call that which the tongue utters, the Hebrew tongue, or the Greek tongue, for example; so the writing, or letters which the seed produces, we may call a reed.
ORIGEN; And perhaps all who know the ecclesiastical doctrine, but live amiss, have given them to drink wine mingled with gall; but they who attribute to Christ untrue opinions, these filling a sponge with vinegar, put it upon the reed of Scripture, and put it to His mouth.
RABAN. The soldiers misunderstanding the sound of the Lord’s words foolishly looked for the coming of Elias. But God, whom the Savior thus invoked in the Hebrew tongue, He had ever inseparably with Him.
AUG. When now nought of suffering remains to be endured, death still lingers, knowing that it has nothing there. The ancient foe suspected somewhat unusual. This man, first and only, he found having no sin, free from guilt, owing nothing to the laws of his jurisdiction. But leagued with Jewish madness, Death comes again to the assault, and desperately invades the Life-giver. And Jesus, when be had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. Wherefore should we be offended that Christ came from the bosom of the Father to take upon Him our bondage, that He might confer on us His freedom; to take upon Him our death, that we might be set free by His death; by despising death He exalted us mortals into Gods, counted them of earth worthy of things in heaven? For seeing the Divine power shines forth so brilliant in the contemplation of its works, it is an argument of boundless love, that it suffers for its subjects, dies for its bondsmen. This then was the first cause of the Lord’s Passion, that He would have it known how great God’s love to man, Who desired rather to be loved than feared. The second was that He might abolish with yet more justice the sentence of death which He had with justice passed. For as the first man had by guilt incurred death through God’s sentence, and handed down the same to his posterity, the second Man, who knew no sin, came from heaven that death might be condemned, which, when commissioned to seize the guilty, had presumed to touch the Author of sinlessness. And it is no wonder if for us He laid down what He had taken of us, His life, namely, when He has done other so great things for us, and bestowed so much on us. PSEUDO-
 
and finally…

**
AUG**. Far be from the faithful any suspicion that Christ experienced our death in such sort that life (as far as it can) ceased to live. Had this been so, how could aught have been said to live during that three days, if the Fountain of Life itself was dried up? Therefore Christ’s Godhead experienced death through its partaking of humanity or of human feeling, which it had voluntarily taken on it; but it lost not the properties of its nature by which it gives life to all things. For when we die, without doubt the loss of life by the body is not the destruction of the soul, but the soul quitting the body loses not its own properties, but only lets go w hat it had quickened, and as far as in it lays produces the death of somewhat else, but itself defies death. To speak now of the Savior’s soul; it might depart without being itself destroyed from His body for this three days’ space, even by the common laws of death, and without taking into account the indwelling Godhead, and His singular righteousness. For I believe that the Son of God died not in punishment of unrighteousness which He had not at all, but according to the law of that nature which He took upon Him for the redemption of the human race.
DAMASC. Although He died as man, and His holy soul was separated from His unstained body, yet His God-head remained inseparate from either body or soul. Yet was not the one Person divided into two; for as both body and soul had from the beginning an existence in the Person of the Word, so also had they in death. For neither soul nor body had ever a Person of their own, besides the Person of the Word. JEROME; It was a mark of Divine power in Him thus to dismiss the Spirit as Himself had said, No man can take my life from me, but I lay it down and take it again. For by the ghost in this place we understand the soul; so called either because it is that which makes the body quick or spiritual, or because the substance of the soul itself is spirit, according to that which is written, you take away their breath, and they die.
CHRYS. Also for this reason He cried out with a loud voice to show that this is done by His own power. For by crying out with a loud voice when dying, He showed incontestably that He was the true God; because a man in dying can scarcely utter even a feeble sound.
AUG. Luke mentions the words which He thus cries out, Father, into your hands I commend my Spirit.
HILARY; Or, He gave up the ghost with a loud voice, in grief that He was not carrying the sins of all men.
 
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pirate87:
If every detail was written down in the Bible, I do believe that it would be much larger than it is… :bible1:
You make a convincing case for Sacred Tradition in that statement… 🙂
 
That would have to be one awfully crowded throne if everyone is sitting in exactly the same spot 😃

I guess that would mean that those who overcome will reign with Christ.

“You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church”

Don’t know about you, but I would NOT give my keys to somebody I knew would betray me three times.

Note how Jesus didn’t say “You are Peter and on you I will build my Church”.
There was the Peter who pointed to Jesus and said “You are the Christ! The Son of the Living God!”
Then there was the Peter who denied Jesus.

Peter: “I don’t know the man!”
Jesus: “You are the guy!”

No way. Instead:

Peter: “You are the Christ! The Son of the Living God!”
Jesus: I will build my Church on that"

Jesus, the Sure Foundation.
Peter, denied Jesus three times despite following Him for over 3 years.
 
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