Kujo313's Assertions About Catholic Marian Beliefs (Isis!?...Goddess!?)

[Nicene]

1: The LORD said to Moses,
2: "Say to the people of Israel, If a woman conceives, and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days; as at the time of her menstruation, she shall be unclean.
3: And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.
4: Then she shall continue for thirty-three days in the blood of her purifying; she shall not touch any hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying are completed.
5: But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her menstruation; and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying for sixty-six days.
6: "And when the days of her purifying are completed, whether for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring to the priest at the door of the tent of meeting a lamb a year old for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering,
7: and he shall offer it before the LORD, and make atonement for her; then she shall be clean from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who bears a child, either male or female.

and:

19: "When a woman has a discharge of blood which is her regular discharge from her body, she shall be in her impurity for seven days, and whoever touches her shall be unclean until the evening.
20: And everything upon which she lies during her impurity shall be unclean; everything also upon which she sits shall be unclean.
21: And whoever touches her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening.
22: And whoever touches anything upon which she sits shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening;
23: whether it is the bed or anything upon which she sits, when he touches it he shall be unclean until the evening.
24: And if any man lies with her, and her impurity is on him, he shall be unclean seven days; and every bed on which he lies shall be unclean.
25: "If a woman has a discharge of blood for many days, not at the time of her impurity, or if she has a discharge beyond the time of her impurity, all the days of the discharge she shall continue in uncleanness; as in the days of her impurity, she shall be unclean.
26: Every bed on which she lies, all the days of her discharge, shall be to her as the bed of her impurity; and everything on which she sits shall be unclean, as in the uncleanness of her impurity.
27: And whoever touches these things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening.
28: But if she is cleansed of her discharge, she shall count for herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean.
29: And on the eighth day she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, and bring them to the priest, to the door of the tent of meeting.
30: And the priest shall offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make atonement for her before the LORD for her unclean discharge.

Citing Luke 2:22:

22: And when the time came for their purification according to the law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord
23: (as it is written in the law of the Lord, “Every male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord”)
24: and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, “a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.”

Sinse Jesus touched his mother during this time, Jesus is unclean, and according to Leviticus (and you) this state of uncleanliness is a sin. Again you assert Jesus is a sinner.

According to Leviticus (and apparently you) it was a sin to have your period or any flow of blood as a woman. And if anyone touched you, or touched anything you touched they were a sinner as well, making Jesus a sinner according to your theology.

We find that unacceptable. Your theology is in gross error. Jesus came to correct those errors telling them what the bible meant because sola scriptura (their personal interpretation) hadn’t been working for them:

Jn 5:39: You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me;
40: yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Nicene]

Do you really believe He is approves of you making cheap jokes at his mother’s expense to prove your point?

You do far worse.

It’s one thing to quote “full of grace” but it’s another thing when Jesus didn’t make the time to see her or recognize her when He said “who’s my mother and who’s my brothers?”

He didn’t do ANY of that and He even compared her to just about anybody else.

And accuse Jesus of breaking the 4th commandment publicly.

Is Mary your mother?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Nicene]

Again, I have to reply with Luke 11: 27-28

27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

If you was there, RIGHT THERE, what would your reaction be?
"How DARE you speak thatway about your mother?"Luke 8:19-21

19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd.
20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.”
21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

Jesus didn’t say “Let my Mother in” or “Make way for your Mother.”
He didn’t do ANY of that and He even compared her to just about anybody else.

Again, what would YOUR response be?

Good job, you just called Jesus a sinner because he broke the 4th commandment “Thou shalt honor thy mother and thy Father”. The rest of the crowd is a bunch of sinners He is trying to save and, according to you, Jesus just lowered her and compared her to “about anybody else”, sinners who weren’t hearing the word of God and doing it.

As well Jesus says “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it ”

By this statement Jesus says his mother is more blessed than the woman imagines “More blessed than that” then continues with “blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it” According to you Mary did not hear the word of God and keep it and isn’t more blessed than that.

So either Christ is holding his mother up as an example, sinse she was the subject of the assertion by the woman, or Jesus is sinning by dissing his mother publicly as you assert.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Mickey]

Mickey:

All I know is that you copied and pasted a response from somewhere. It is obvious that these are not your words. Did you know that forum rules mandate that you provide references when you copy and paste from another source?

I found your source. The ever popular wikipedia. Here it is:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coming_of_age

 

[Nicene]

As Jesus said, we’re not to concentrate on Mary but the fact that we are Jesus’ brothers and mother IF we hear and obey God.

Actually the funny thing is that protestants concentrate on her more than catholics, particularly in a negative way. Evidence is that you keep bringing her up and harping on her. Further you say we put her above Jesus, well thanks for telling us what we think and believe. By the way is Jesus still that cheap symbol you make him out to be in the eucharist? Though it is only a symbol, protestants can’t consecrate our Lord.

Mary is blessed just as everybody else who hear and obeying God and doing His Will.

I don’t believe God asked you to carry the Son of God and man. Further you exalting yourself by insinuating such.

How about all the martyrs who gave up their lives for Jesus?

They were all catholic and venerated as such for their sacrifice. In fact you’ll find, according to ancient records, they were executed for being canibals.

But you have been repeatedly disrespectful to His mother. That is not acceptable to Him and it’s not acceptable to me.

We aren’t the ones asserting she was a sinner for having a flow of blood and causing Jesus to be a sinner for touching her during that time by nursing at his mothers breast. Who is being disrespectful?

Jewish law says to kill our enemies. But Jesus said to love them.
Sure, we’re to treat our mothers highly, but to treat anybody over Jesus? No way.

Thanks for telling us what we believe again. Can you tell us when you attained this ability to see in the hearts of men, I honestly thought only God could do that. Or are you placing yourself above God?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Mickey]

Were Only Adults Baptized?

Fundamentalists are reluctant to admit that the Bible nowhere says baptism is to be restricted to adults, but when pressed, they will. They just conclude that is what it should be taken as meaning, even if the text does not explicitly support such a view. Naturally enough, the people whose baptisms we read about in Scripture (and few are individually identified) are adults, because they were converted as adults. This makes sense, because Christianity was just beginning—there were no “cradle Christians,” people brought up from childhood in Christian homes.

Even in the books of the New Testament that were written later in the first century, during the time when children were raised in the first Christian homes, we never—not even once—find an example of a child raised in a Christian home who is baptized only upon making a “decision for Christ.” Rather, it is always assumed that the children of Christian homes are already Christians, that they have already been “baptized into Christ” (Rom. 6:3). If infant baptism were not the rule, then we should have references to the children of Christian parents joining the Church only after they had come to the age of reason, and there are no such records in the Bible.
(From Catholic Answers)

 

[Fiat]

kujo313:

They obviously didn’t see any put down of the Blessed Virgin, and if anyone had been looking for one they sure would have. You are reading something into the passage that even those present didn’t hear.

Ok, I “rethought” it.

We’re trying to get to Heaven. We ain’t going to get there by labelling ourselves.
Jesus is the only Way.

IF you are trying to get to Heaven, WHY look elsewhere? WHY look for another “way” if Jesus said that He’s the ONLY WAY?

Jewish law says to kill our enemies. But Jesus said to love them.
Sure, we’re to treat our mothers highly, but to treat anybody over Jesus? No way.

He was born from a virgin, a sign from the Old Testament. It does NOT say to honor the virgin. You can, if you want to. But if you don’t, you aren’t wrong.
YOU say it is, but Jesus didn’t say it. He just readjusted your focus.

Kujo:
We Catholics proclaim in boldness that Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY! However, you don’t seem to understand that way at all. Don’t you know that Mary, the Mother of Christ, brings the salvation of Christ?

You deny that Jesus would give anyone a share in His salvific mission, in spite of the fact that we are called to be fellow laborers with Christ.

When Jesus invites Mary into the salvific plan, He does not limit Himself. Instead, He is pleased to work through the members of His Body. We faithful are all part of HIs Body, and thus constitute through this mystical union the means of salvation for our neighbor who is lost in sin.

Fiat

 

[Mickey]

Fiat:

When Jesus invites Mary into the salvific plan, He does not limit Himself. Instead, He is pleased to work through the members of His Body. We faithful are all part of HIs Body, and thus constitute through this mystical union the means of salvation for our neighbor who is lost in sin.

Beautifully stated. Bravo! That’s a keeper.
img70.imageshack.us/img70/1387/3barcross4kp.gif

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

History of the Red Letter Edition.

Did the men who wrote the Word of God feel it necessary to put Jesus’ words in red? This was not God’s design but a man from a century ago. Let’s not elevate the idea of a man to sacred proportions.

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

I believe that there is an “age of accountability”.

Mickey:

Can you show this to us in the Bible?

kujo313:

Ahh! Trick question! You don’t believe in “Sola Scriptula”.

But you do. And you couldn’t provide a chapter and verse that tells us there is an “age of accountability” for baptism.

 

[kujo313]

Mickey:

I didn’t think so.

The Roman Catholic Church baptizes infants and then proceeds to catechize the child in preparation for Holy Communion and then confirmation. This is a discipline. The Eastern Catholic Church and the Orthodox administers the sacraments of baptism, holy communion, and chrismation to infants at the same time. But notice that infants are baptized without regard to age.

“catechize the child”. is that the same as “discipling them”? I tend, though, to disagree with doing all that to infants. They do not know what they are doing. It should be learned and understood.

All I know is that you copied and pasted a response from somewhere. It is obvious that these are not your words. Did you know that forum rules mandate that you provide references when you copy and paste from another source?

I didn’t know. Where can i read about it?

 

[kujo313]

Eden:

But you do. And you couldn’t provide a chapter and verse that tells us there is an “age of accountability” for baptism.

Luke 2:41-50
I’ll accept that as a good age. But it still depends on the maturity of the child.

 

[kujo313]

Eden:

Did the men who wrote the Word of God feel it necessary to put Jesus’ words in red? This was not God’s design but a man from a century ago. Let’s not elevate the idea of a man to sacred proportions.

True, we should not elevate mankind to that level. But the men DID feel it necessary to quote Jesus.

 

[kujo313]

Fiat:

Kujo:
We Catholics proclaim in boldness that Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY! However, you don’t seem to understand that way at all. Don’t you know that Mary, the Mother of Christ, brings the salvation of Christ?

You deny that Jesus would give anyone a share in His salvific mission, in spite of the fact that we are called to be fellow laborers with Christ.

When Jesus invites Mary into the salvific plan, He does not limit Himself. Instead, He is pleased to work through the members of His Body. We faithful are all part of HIs Body, and thus constitute through this mystical union the means of salvation for our neighbor who is lost in sin.

Fiat

You made my point right there. We ALL are part of it. All of us need to point people to Christ. Not one of us are higher than another, but Christ is higher than all.

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

True, we should not elevate mankind to that level. But the men DID feel it necessary to quote Jesus.

In red?

 

[Orionthehunter]

I’m hurt that Kujo won’t respond to any of my points in post #58 about the merit of loving that what Jesus loves (His mother) as a sign of our love of Jesus. I love my mother-in-law (as difficult as it is most of the time) because I love my wife. My love for my MIL does not detract from my love of my wife. In fact, it gives me greater insight into my wife.

I’m at a loss why Mary engenders such bigoted, ignorant responses and presumptions from our separated brethren.

P.S. How did we get off on infant baptisms? Isn’t that another subject?

From Kujo: You made my point right there. We ALL are part of it. All of us need to point people to Christ. Not one of us are higher than another, but Christ is higher than all.

Any Catholic who asserts that Mary is greater than or equal to Christ is asserting a teaching contrary to the Teachings of the Church. Kujo, can you only hold us responsible for what we actually Teach and not what some non-Catholic believes we believe.

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

Luke 2:41-50
I’ll accept that as a good age. But it still depends on the maturity of the child.

Luke 2:41-50 has nothing to do with the age at which a child is eligible for baptism in Christianity.

 

[Eden]

Orionthehunter:

I’m at a loss why Mary engenders such bigoted, ignorant responses and presumptions from our separated brethren.

I believe some separated brethren have issues with women that play out in their feelings towards His mother.

I’m not accusing Kujo313 of having issues with his own mother, I would just suspect that some Protestants who obsess over this issue may have hostile feelings for reasons outside of the faith.

 

[kujo313]

you say we put her above Jesus.

Not only “above” but “next to”. I bet there are more paintings of an infant Jesus than an older Jesus in your religion. Your pope wants to declare Mary as co-Mediator with Christ. Not just her pointing the way to Jesus, but to be BESIDE Him as another “way” to God.
It’s not harping on Mary, it’s warning all who follow her and her example before following Jesus and His examples.

By the way is Jesus still that cheap symbol you make him out to be in the eucharist?

No. Jesus is in EVERYTHING. Through Him, all things were made. He’s not just in bread and “wine”.

Though it is only a symbol, protestants can’t consecrate our Lord.

Your religion’s rules?

I don’t believe God asked you to carry the Son of God and man. Further you exalting yourself by insinuating such.

The Holy Spirit lives in all believers. We carry the Gospel where ever we go. We can do more because Jesus went to our Father.
All believers are exalted.

They were all catholic and venerated as such for their sacrifice. In fact you’ll find, according to ancient records, they were executed for being canibals.
What records? Where can I read it? “Executed?” Was caniballism against the law? We’re supposed to obey the law. (Caniballism is against the law in the United States)

We aren’t the ones asserting she was a sinner for having a flow of blood and causing Jesus to be a sinner for touching her during that time by nursing at his mothers breast. Who is being disrespectful?

Jesus being perfect is part of the miracle of the virgin birth. The virgin birth was a sign for people looking for signs leading to the Messiah. Jesus was perfect on earth from the moment of conception to the cross.
Jesus was not just a “sign”. He was, and still is, our Messiah! All messianic prophesies are about Him.
I’m not being disrespectful, I’m just centered on Jesus and focused on Him. Nowhere does He tell me to take a closer look at the signs. He simply tells us in His Word that we can go directly to the Father. We don’t have to go through anybody or anything to get to Him.

Thanks for telling us what we believe again. Can you tell us when you attained this ability to see in the hearts of men, I honestly thought only God could do that. Or are you placing yourself above God?
I only see the fruits. I ain’t speaking for all protestants or their faiths or beliefs, but Jesus taught us to pray directly to God. He never said our prayers are to include the word “mother”.

Peace and God Bless to you, too!

 

[montanaman]

**I believe some separated brethren have issues with women that play out in their feelings towards His mother. **

I’m not accusing Kujo313 of having issues with his own mother, I would just suspect that some Protestants who obsess over this issue may have hostile feelings for reasons outside of the faith.

Now, come on. That’s a cheap shot. I’m all for the utter destruction of the poison of Protestantism, but let’s try to refrain from pop-psychology speculation about their motives. Let’s just keep using the Bible, logic and reason to do so. It’s worked perfectly so far.

No, their “sola Christus” mentality that excludes Mary from any equation comes not from Freudian problems; rather, it’s a hyper-individualistic approach to God. From this, (or because of this), their whole theology is built on rejection and rebellion. They’ve reduced everything to a couple of slogans, and when they encounter something true like Christ’s mother’s relationship to the Church, they react irrationally. Any threat to their hastily-constructed and contradictory self-referential religion causes them to have a very bad reaction.