Lack of Desire

[Mirdath]

Mirdath,
It’s obvious you don’t understand what PM means by “intimacy”. And your constant labeling of it as a complaint of “getting laid” just illustrates his point that you indeed do fit right into the “all women do X” statement that you complained about.

He did use the words ‘sexual intimacy’ to describe exactly what he was referring to, so I think my statements well warranted. But he could be talking about anything and his point would still be that he isn’t getting enough of it for what he puts in. Kachink, kachink… 5 more bonbons needed to produce output in sector PM… That’s not a relationship. It’s a sad and horrifying parody of one. It’s industrial robots putting on a slow, torturous, mechanical interpretation of a romantic play.

It’s no secret that Soap Operas are by far more popular with women than they are with men. And what they portray it definitely NOT true intimacy.

It may be a secret that they’re popular with pretty much anyone who’s alone at home or working at night, women AND men both. For my part, I detest them (I also don’t care for popcorn… footrubs are nice though).

 

[litllulu]

This assumption is just not true.
Speaking for good, practicing Catholic men, it’s not about sex. The way you stated this would immediately put us in a state of mortal sin since we would be objectifying our spouses.
We are speaking of intimacy. The Bonding together of two people. Affection, love and oneness…becoming one flesh…it’s not about sex…it’s about the desire to be intimate with your wife, to be close ot her.

It has nothing to do with feminism. It has everything to do with marriage.
Why is it that women never rant about this? It’s because they couldn’t care less about it. Intimacy for women is about sitting on the couch, watching a soppy movie with popcorn whilst getting your feet rubbed. (in my experience)
We slave away to give them their intimacy, their love, we do things for them out of love and yes we enjoy these things, we enjoy the time with them, it’s precious and valuable, but do you think the wifes can show us that they love us? With a very simple gesture of sexual intimacy inside the bonds of marriage, an outwardly show of affection and self-sharing is all we need.

Honestly, we are trying to be the best people we can be. We deny ourselves EVERYTHING for the sake of our marriage…how many other guys would just go and get a good sleazy porn DVD and get them selves off in this situation?
But us Practicing Catholic guys? No, we are on our knees praying for the Grace to not fall into temptation, to treat our wifes with the respect they deserve, to burry our frustration deep within us and get up and make them another cup of tea, or wash dishes, or get the massage oil, or letting her sleep in while you care for a baby at 4 am, or a myriad of things, instead of going into “those stores”

Do not assume that it’s about “I-can’t-get-laid-enough”. you are talking to Catholic Men here. We are trying our best to remain oure and sinless. Give us some credit for trying to find help and advice from the only, last place we know how…

PM

That was beautiful!

 

[Mirdath]

“In my experience” means, not only myself in my own little world, but, as I stated, many numbers of men echoing my exact same thoughts feeling and findings - on this board, on others, and from what I have spoken to.

I can understand your want to defend the woman’s point of view, but aren’t you just defending your own dislike of sex and blaming it on the guys who “can’t get enough”? The door swings both ways you know, I have to ask…

You… have… no… idea!

I have plenty of absolutely fantastic sex, initiate it often, and enjoy it every single time. Several times a week at LEAST, it’s hard to keep count when it’s that good.

My marriage is not bizarre, as you call it, it’s wonderful. And it’s not about trading favours at all…it’s part of the marriage vows. I am striving for a good, wholesome marriage. If something is lacking, we address it, no matter what it is.

I’m glad to be told I’m wrong – seriously, I am. I don’t think your way of addressing this particular issue is helping though.

Once again, you are assuming, from an non-catholic point of view that I “can’t get enough”. You also have to measure “enough” by certain standards, and again, it’s been echoed by several men. There certainly is a limit of frequency that sends off alarm bells. Once again, it’s not about my own sexual desires, that would be mortal sin, it’s about marriage, the vows and living the faith.

Wasn’t your first major thread here about trying to keep from getting yourself off since your wife wouldn’t provide often enough? There’s nothing in the vows that says ‘I agree to boink him so many times a week’, nor is sex essential to living your faith or even having a loving relationship. It is the disparity between your sex drives that’s apparently the problem.

And, if you feel the need to call me misogynistic, then feel free, I just call it like I (and many, many other guys) see it.

To continue the umpire joke, I call it like it is.

 

[PennitentMan]

"Mirdath:

Wasn’t your first major thread here about trying to keep from getting yourself off since your wife wouldn’t provide often enough

Yes it was. Again, I’m trying to be a good Catholic. Stricving to be chaste. Asking for help in my struggle to be the best Catholic/husband/father I can be.
You are coming at this from a secular point of view, no wonder you don’t understand.

nor is sex essential to living your faith or even having a loving relationship.

Let’s set the record straight. We are not talking about sex the way you and countless others view it.

That is why I called it sexual intimacy. Intimacy can take many forms, so I had to be a little bit specific.

and yes, sex is (name removed by moderator)ortant…sex was intended for marraige and nowhere else.
Of course it is necesarry.
It unites husband and wife in a manner that nothing else can.
It’s the ultimate expression of love.
It fuses two souls together.
It’s the closest expression of how Christ loves us that two people can perform.
If done right,within a marraige.

Now tell me that isn’t important in mararige.

You are speaking to Cahtolics here.

 

[searching06]

Holy cow - tiresias? satyriasis? misogyny? Thank goodness for Websters on line!

Part of me wants to say “ouch”, so I’ll jump in at different parts:

In your experience being the critical words. Don’t assume all women do X just because that’s the way your wife is.

I agree. My wife is the one who goes outof her way to make me feel special. I’m the one struggling and making it difficult on her. Thank God she loves me, though I find it hard to see why sometimes.

It’s been a while since I’ve seen the royal ‘we’. You think your wife doesn’t do or sacrifice anything out of love for you? Is your marriage really so bizarre that it’s all about you trading favors for occasional sex? How is it not objectifying your spouse to think of her and indeed all women as a sort of machine into which you dump chocolate and roses until there’s enough in the hopper for her to have sex with you?

I’m not assuming – I can see it very well with my own two eyes. I respect your struggle to remain faithful and chaste, but when one gets right down to it your complaint really is that you don’t get laid enough, and you’ve said as much in your post. I’m sorry your marriage hasn’t turned out to your liking, but your descent into misogyny is ignorant and offensive.

I think here I have one comment and then a question of faith and Catechism, I guess. Personally I struggle terribly with not falling into sin, for whatever reason, along these lines. Primarily sheer weakness and frustration with life on my part. And after many years, I am trying hard to see the light and seek God’s graces and help. But an honest question now, for men and women: is it wrong to be lustful for your spouse? Not just because you want sex, but because you love them, want to please them in that way, give yourself to them by pleasing them? Granted, this is a proper Catholic site, but I gather we are all adults seeking guidance - I sure am. How do I put this delicately? I love being that intimate with my wife. It makes me feel closer and more intimate and more giving, even more accepted, if she sometimes lets me please her as much as I want to, however I want to. But she sees it as simply wanting sex. Is there such a thing for loving Catholic couples as just plain, healthy, fun sex if you are not using each other only to that end? It seems as if we Catholics are not allowed that. I try to explain to her it makes me feel good to make her feel so good because I love her. I also wish she would reciprocate, but she does not relly, and I end up feeling “utilitarian” as she puts it. I would love a woman’s perspective on this, I really would. And my apologies if I offended anyone.

 

[PennitentMan]

I think here I have one comment and then a question of faith and Catechism, I guess. Personally I struggle terribly with not falling into sin, for whatever reason, along these lines. Primarily sheer weakness and frustration with life on my part. And after many years, I am trying hard to see the light and seek God’s graces and help. But an honest question now, for men and women: is it wrong to be lustful for your spouse? Not just because you want sex, but because you love them, want to please them in that way, give yourself to them by pleasing them? Granted, this is a proper Catholic site, but I gather we are all adults seeking guidance - I sure am. How do I put this delicately? I love being that intimate with my wife. It makes me feel closer and more intimate and more giving, even more accepted, if she sometimes lets me please her as much as I want to, however I want to. But she sees it as simply wanting sex. Is there such a thing for loving Catholic couples as just plain, healthy, fun sex if you are not using each other only to that end? It seems as if we Catholics are not allowed that. I try to explain to her it makes me feel good to make her feel so good because I love her. I also wish she would reciprocate, but she does not relly, and I end up feeling “utilitarian” as she puts it. I would love a woman’s perspective on this, I really would. And my apologies if I offended anyone.

Well, I’m a guy, but just to point out, what you are craving is not lust, it’s the desire and yearning to be intimate with your wife, as God intended it. That is a healthy and good thing, not to be confused with lust.

And brother, I’m in exactly the same scenario as you are, so I’d like to hear what the women say about this part of the question:

But she sees it as simply wanting sex. Is there such a thing for loving Catholic couples as just plain, healthy, fun sex if you are not using each other only to that end? It seems as if we Catholics are not allowed that. I try to explain to her it makes me feel good to make her feel so good because I love her. I also wish she would reciprocate, but she does not relly, and I end up feeling “utilitarian” as she puts it. I would love a woman’s perspective on this, I really would

Thank you for asking this!

PM

 

[searching06]

Mirdath, pleae forgive me, but as I am new to this site and I am trying to follow along, am I correct in guessing you are non-Catholic female? It will help me in understanding these fast-moving threads!!!

You… have… no… idea!

I have plenty of absolutely fantastic sex, initiate it often, and enjoy it every single time. Several times a week at LEAST, it’s hard to keep count when it’s that good.

I’m glad to be told I’m wrong – seriously, I am. I don’t think your way of addressing this particular issue is helping though.

Wasn’t your first major thread here about trying to keep from getting yourself off since your wife wouldn’t provide often enough? There’s nothing in the vows that says ‘I agree to boink him so many times a week’, nor is sex essential to living your faith or even having a loving relationship. It is the disparity between your sex drives that’s apparently the problem.

To continue the umpire joke, I call it like it is.

 

[Mirdath]

Yes it was. Again, I’m trying to be a good Catholic. Stricving to be chaste. Asking for help in my struggle to be the best Catholic/husband/father I can be.
You are coming at this from a secular point of view, no wonder you don’t understand.

Not only was I brought up Catholic, I kept a rather ascetic lifestyle for some time even after leaving the Church. I understand more than you know, not that it’s a tough question anyway.

Let’s set the record straight. We are not talking about sex the way you and countless others view it.

That is why I called it sexual intimacy. Intimacy can take many forms, so I had to be a little bit specific.

and yes, sex is (name removed by moderator)ortant…sex was intended for marraige and nowhere else.
Of course it is necesarry.
It unites husband and wife in a manner that nothing else can.
It’s the ultimate expression of love.
It fuses two souls together.
It’s the closest expression of how Christ loves us that two people can perform.
If done right,within a marraige.

Now tell me that isn’t important in mararige.

It’s important, but it isn’t necessarily essential. The purpose of marriage (or civil union, or common-law marriage, or what have you) isn’t sex: it’s a bond of romantic love between the participants. Romance and sex are not the same thing. Sex can be a part of romance, one of many expressions of that love. But love does not need sex to exist or express itself.

searching06:

But an honest question now, for men and women: is it wrong to be lustful for your spouse? Not just because you want sex, but because you love them, want to please them in that way, give yourself to them by pleasing them? Granted, this is a proper Catholic site, but I gather we are all adults seeking guidance - I sure am. How do I put this delicately? I love being that intimate with my wife. It makes me feel closer and more intimate and more giving, even more accepted, if she sometimes lets me please her as much as I want to, however I want to. But she sees it as simply wanting sex. Is there such a thing for loving Catholic couples as just plain, healthy, fun sex if you are not using each other only to that end? It seems as if we Catholics are not allowed that. I try to explain to her it makes me feel good to make her feel so good because I love her. I also wish she would reciprocate, but she does not relly, and I end up feeling “utilitarian” as she puts it. I would love a woman’s perspective on this, I really would. And my apologies if I offended anyone.

It doesn’t sound like you’re talking about lust at all. Admiration, love, yes, but remember that lust is concerned only with gratification of the self. Forgetting about yourself and trying to please your partner isn’t lust – and in my not-so-humble opinion it’s also how you have really great sex

edit: yes, I’m agnostic

 

[Em_in_FL]

But she sees it as simply wanting sex.
Is there such a thing for loving Catholic couples as just plain, healthy, fun sex if you are not using each other only to that end? It seems as if we Catholics are not allowed that.

Yes there IS such a thing… some of us do experience this. I know exactly what you are saying… not at all in a “lustful” way, but in a total “unitive” way…
We Catholics are SUPPOSSED to have that.
Which is why I think there are deeper conversations that you probably need to have with your wife.

I try to explain to her it makes me feel good to make her feel so good because I love her. I also wish she would reciprocate, but she does not relly, and I end up feeling “utilitarian” as she puts it. I would love a woman’s perspective on this, I really would. And my apologies if I offended anyone.

Hmmm… okay, I see what you’re saying.
Have you had a serious discussion with her on this subject? Not one in frustration, but a true communication of sharing your feelings. Have you sat down and read the Catechism together? What about Pope JPII’s Theology of the Body?

Maybe your wife lacks your theological understanding of the subject…

Discuss it… as you talk about it, the natural desire to be together grows.
It becomes a gift from God.
Maybe she really needs to hear you say those words.

“My desire to be with you is NOT utilitarian… I want to share in this sacrament of matrimony with you”

 

[PennitentMan]

Not only was I brought up Catholic, I kept a rather ascetic lifestyle for some time even after leaving the Church. I understand more than you know, not that it’s a tough question anyway.

Yeah, but you are a confessed agnostic, so you cannot see the beauty of marraige as the Catholic Church intended it since you are denying Catholocism…you are doubting the very existence of God.

It’s important, but it isn’t necessarily essential. The purpose of marriage (or civil union, or common-law marriage, or what have you) isn’t sex: it’s a bond of romantic love between the participants. Romance and sex are not the same thing. Sex can be a part of romance, one of many expressions of that love. But love does not need sex to exist or express itself.

Then why does Jesus say that is is important for spouses not to deny each other intimacy except for a short while and then for prayer…this is Jesus’ councelling…of course it is essential for a **Catholic **marraige.

yes, I’m agnostic

 

[Mirdath]

Yeah, but you are a confessed agnostic, so you cannot see the beauty of marraige as the Catholic Church intended it since you are denying Catholocism…you are doubting the very existence of God.

Do I have to be religious to see that love is beautiful?

Then why does Jesus say that is is important for spouses not to deny each other intimacy except for a short while and then for prayer…this is Jesus’ councelling…of course it is essential for a **Catholic **marraige.

Source? I don’t remember that particular teaching…

 

[searching06]

Theology of the Body, no; the Catechism, yes, though individually, looking for the answers to some of what started me on all of this - in what ways is it permissble for the man to reach orgasm; and since it is only intercourse, it put us on the path of infrequent sex/intimacy, and hence all of these threads!

Can you give me in a nutshell what the Theology and Catechism say, or what you have found and understand it to say? I hope that one day my wife would understand I need to feel her willingly loving me physcially in a giving way and that it is OK in the eyes of the church.

Yes there IS such a thing… some of us do experience this. I know exactly what you are saying… not at all in a “lustful” way, but in a total “unitive” way…
We Catholics are SUPPOSSED to have that.
Which is why I think there are deeper conversations that you probably need to have with your wife.

Hmmm… okay, I see what you’re saying.
Have you had a serious discussion with her on this subject? Not one in frustration, but a true communication of sharing your feelings. Have you sat down and read the Catechism together? What about Pope JPII’s Theology of the Body?

Maybe your wife lacks your theological understanding of the subject…

Discuss it… as you talk about it, the natural desire to be together grows.
It becomes a gift from God.
Maybe she really needs to hear you say those words.

“My desire to be with you is NOT utilitarian… I want to share in this sacrament of matrimony with you”

 

[kage_ar]

Source? I don’t remember that particular teaching…

That is actually the teaching of St. Paul - of course, we don’t take one single verse out of context, cause we are Catholic St. Paul also taught that he wished we could all be celibate as he was, but, it was better to marry than to burn.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Can you give me in a nutshell what the Theology and Catechism say, or what you have found and understand it to say? I hope that one day my wife would understand I need to feel her willingly loving me physcially in a giving way and that it is OK in the eyes of the church.

It talks about the BEAUTY and NECESSITY of conjugal acts between husband and wife.

READ IT… THEN… read it to HER!

 

[searching06]

Do I have to be religious to see that love is beautiful?

Source? I don’t remember that particular teaching…

Actually, I believe it is Paul, maybe Peter in one of their letters to the early churches.And there is much more to it. I’ll see if I can find it later.

 

[searching06]

Will do - thank you!

It talks about the BEAUTY and NECESSITY of conjugal acts between husband and wife.

READ IT… THEN… read it to HER!

 

[kage_ar]

The word “Intimacy” is used often in this, and similar posts.

One more time, I am going to HIGHLY suggest a book by a Catholic man, Matthew Kelly. The book is “The Seven Levels of Intimacy” - the first chapter is titled, “Sex is not Intimacy”.

This thread has encouraged me to buy a copy of this book for my Parish library!

 

[searching06]

“Intimacy” is politely being used for “sex”. And yes, there is a difference; while not the same or necessary at the same time, sex is critical to loving intimacy, which is also part of wwhat brought me searching for answers.

The word “Intimacy” is used often in this, and similar posts.

One more time, I am going to HIGHLY suggest a book by a Catholic man, Matthew Kelly. The book is “The Seven Levels of Intimacy” - the first chapter is titled, “Sex is not Intimacy”.

This thread has encouraged me to buy a copy of this book for my Parish library!

 

[PennitentMan]

Source? I don’t remember that particular teaching…

*1 Cor 7:5
Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control. *

Case in point.

 

[Mirdath]

*1 Cor 7:5
Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control. *

Case in point.

First off that’s not Jesus but Paul. Second, read verse 6: This I say by way of concession, however, not as a command.

Paul was quite explicitly anti-sex in all forms, conveniently enough expressed in that very chapter. His thoughts on the matter are less ‘sex is a gift from God to be cherished’ than ‘sex… well, if you absolutely have to do it get married, it’s at least better than going to hell’. Not exactly a healthy attitude towards marital love, and not one expressed by the Church nowadays. Consider that the Church has broken from his teaching that it is better for widows and widowers to remain so than remarry.