New report from ireland

[kildare]

It saddens me, but all these reports of abuse and inaction or complicity on the part of the hierarchy are causing many in Ireland to lose their faith - a faith which sustained them for nearly 16 centuries or 100 generations.

Can the pope please do something in administrative terms to help the faithful in Ireland?

This is not a case of hostile external forces as in Europe or temptations to sin as in the US, but a case of disenchanted "conservative and spiritual " believers who are offended by the lack of basic morality on the part of many clergy and bishops in the hierarchy. Importantly many many Irish people are being caused to lose their faiths by the action or inaction of these clergy.

But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Mathew 18:6

 

[Mustard]

Thank you for sharing your personal experience. I will keep you in my prayers. Would you mind clearing up a few things for me. Is this drastic proposal in response to the lack of prosecution for priests who abuse children. Have they had to answer to authorities for breaking laws? What has been going on in your country in regards to the legalities. Do the people who are proposing this legislation have a precident for doing it. Wow what a situation.

Actually, there has been no shortage of prosections of priests in Ireland over this. It seems like every week there is another paedophile priest going before the courts and doing hard time for their crimes, and quite rightly too. I have no problem with this; but I’ve got a real problem with this legislation. I can’t interpret it as anything other than an anti-Catholic assault. It serves no purpose other than to harrass honest priests and I cannot see any way in which it will help bring paedophiles to justice. Nor is it necessary to have priests acting as snitches; the police seem to be doing a perfectly good job unearthing these men without clerical CIs.

To understand the motivation behind it, it would be necessary for me to take you on a sociological trawl back through the history of the Irish state, and I don’t suppose you have the time or inclination for that, so I’ll just say that this is a natural outcome of liberalism. I have, up till this point, always attempted not to jump on the bandwagon of liberal bashing, mainly because I didn’t much like many of those on the conservative side. But I now see that the difference is that whereas consevatism may draw dishonest people into its ranks with a view to advancing themselves, liberalism is rotton FROM the core; it is an inherently sick philosophy which cannot be redeemed, and I’m through making excuses for it.

 

[ringil]

I can’t imagive that such a reprehensable law would be enacted. I am really surprised that something like this would even be proposed.

Ave Crux- Thanks for chiming in Father. We can count on our priests and we are blessed to have them.

 

[kimmielittle]

To the Irish Legislators:

A partial repost of mine from a similar thread ]

---

And braking the seal will do something to protect children?

Can you reference as evidence, just how many Priests have heard confessions about child abuse and how braking the seal would help?

Before you can have a “fix” for a problem - there needs to be identification “Of” a problem.

IMO this “fix” throws confession as the problem - BUT no evidence of such has emerged.

If confession is sealed now - how does one prove confession is the culprit? ]

What HAS emerged is NOT the problem of confession… but the problems in administration.

Again, prove the seal of confession is the culprit. You can’t …because the seal is intact.

Appeals to sympathy are fallacies in logic - when they miss the culprit.

The culprit is / was bad administration practices of some.

AGAIN, Attack the problem…not some made-up culprit.

I hope this helps.

 

[BlueSapphire]

As a fellow Irishwoman, I wholeheartedly agree with you - above all else my faith as a Catholic trumps my Country every time!

 

[Corki]

That would be practically very difficult or even impossible for many priests. Many priests have only a limited number of other priests whom they get a chance to confess to, and they generally know each others’ voices.

I have been thinking about this. If such a law were to pass, it would be important for the Bishop to take steps to protect the Seal. For most Catholics, the only additional safeguard needed would be to mandate Confession behind the screen. For priest-penitents, they would need to be more creative. Encourage priests to confess to someone other than their regular spiritual director. Invite priests from other dioceses or countries to hear priest confessions more regularly when they visit.

The danger of a law like this is that it may discourage people who really need the Sacrament from going to Confession. That danger is even more critical for priests.

 

[kimmielittle]

I have been thinking about this. If such a law were to pass, it would be important for the Bishop to take steps to protect the Seal. For most Catholics, the only additional safeguard needed would be to mandate Confession behind the screen. For priest-penitents, they would need to be more creative. Encourage priests to confess to someone other than their regular spiritual director. Invite priests from other dioceses or countries to hear priest confessions more regularly when they visit.

The danger of a law like this is that it may discourage people who really need the Sacrament from going to Confession. That danger is even more critical for priests.

Hiyas

Did you post your confession scenario here? If not, please do…I think it’s great!

 

[Farsight001]

Do confessions only behind the screen and give the confessor one of those voice masking gadgets. Problem solved.

The law becomes more asinine and pointless the more I think about it.

 

[BlueSapphire]

Like many in Ireland, I drifted away from the faith over the years. It tends to happen in secular countries, and Ireland today is the poster child for the culture (such as it is) of secular liberalism. Even away from the Church, the echoing emptyness of secularism was beginning to sicken me as I grew older. I’ve watched silently as the Church came under increasing attack over the child abuse scandal. In truth, there was no way to defend the charges - they were true, after all, and even though I knew that many of those liberals on the anti-Catholic bandwagon didn’t really give a damn about the children they claimed to be outraged over (to them, it was just a stick to beat religion with), still the Church had brought it on itself. If the bishops had come down like a ton of lead on the first child abuser they became aware of, they would have killed this scandal (and the pain of many innocents) dead in its tracks. But they didn’t, instead chosing to cover up and keep silent, disheartening many good Catholics as the story came out in dribs and drabs, and giving the rest an excuse to leave.

Up until now, the secularists (in fairness) have stayed within just boundaries. They haven’t made it an anti-Catholic thing per se, they have confined themselves to representing the interests of the victims and they have adhered to a moral ground (albeit a secular one) which the bishops have abandoned. But now they’ve crossed a line. This is a straight assault on a minority (for committed Catholics today are a minority in Ireland, despite the nominally massive majority). They’ve edged out of the territory of tolerance and have entered the ground of harrassment. After that comes oppression, and finally outright persecution. We are, of course, a very long way from that and it’s not by any means certain the government will continue down this road, but for me it’s a heads-up. I’m returning to my faith, poor as it is, and hope others will do likewise.

The Church in Ireland has fallen a very long way, much of it its own doing, but enough is enough. I hope when this is over, what comes out the other side will be a beacon that will shame every secularist in this country.

That a lovely and sincere post - thank you!

 

[Corki]

Hiyas

Did you post your confession scenario here? If not, please do…I think it’s great!

LOL Thanks for the compliment. For those of you who aren’t following the other thread as as well, I posted this as an example of how this law is just posturing and won’t really do anything to actually protect children.

Future Confession scenario:

Preist (walking into police station): I need to report an incident of child abuse as I am required to by law.

Police: Thank you for coming, Father. How did you come to know about this?

Priest: It was confessed to me.

Police: When was this?

Priest: Yesterday; I hear Confessions every Saturday.

Police: Who was the abuser?

Priest: I don’t know the name. Confession is anonymous.

Police: What did he look like? Could you pick him out of a mug book?

Priest: I couldn’t see the face in the Confessional.

Police: Well, it was a man, right?

Priest: I think so but I couldn’t be certain. The voice sounded mostly male.

Police Well, who was the victim?

Priest: The penitent did not say the victim’s name?

Police: Didn’t you ask?

Priest: No, Confession is about the sinner.

Police: Was the victim a boy or girl?

Priest: I am not sure.

Police: Didn’t you ask?

Priest: No, it’s just as sinful to abuse a boy as a girl.

Police: When did this crime occur?

Priest I don’t really know. The penitent said he last went to Confession five years ago so it was probably sometime in the last five years.

Police: Where did it occur? I need to make sure this is handled by the proper jurisdiction.

Priest: That wasn’t mentioned.

Police: Did you excommunicate him for this horrible crime?

Priest: No, I have no authority to excommunicate anyone.

Police: Well, thank you Father. We are so happy that you came to us so we can save the children of Ireland.

 

[BlueSapphire]

LOL Thanks for the compliment. For those of you who aren’t following the other thread as as well, I posted this as an example of how this law is just posturing and won’t really do anything to actually protect children.

 

[Phil1]

CCC 1450 “Penance requires . . . the sinner to endure all things willingly, be contrite of heart, confess with the lips, and practice complete humility and fruitful satisfaction.”

It could be argued that any priest seeking forgiveness in confession who is not prepared to turn himself in to the legitimate authorities is lacking a firm purpose of amendment and would be incapable of showing complete humility and fruitful satisfaction for the hurt caused to the victim.

Is this an avenue for confessors to take? I mean make absolution dependant on such obvious demonstrations of genuine contrition and desire for satisfaction.
Another thought, could the church make future acts of priestly child abuse an automatic excommunicable offence, for which absolution is granted only by the pope?

Re: the Irish State bashing the church.
Follow the links below and see the plank in the eye of the Irish state…… six children die in state care in three months…… dozens more go missing every year, many ending up in the sex / slave trade. Considering the size of this nation, this is a serious indictment. The church scandal provides a convenient distraction.

independent.ie/national-news/six-hse-care-children-died-in-2192919.html

independent.ie/national-news/wikileaks/kids-in-hse-care-ended-up-working-in-brothels-2665248.html

 

[wisdomseeker]

I have just watched the Web of Faith and they touch this very subject. They said that no priest in 2000 yrs has ever broken the seal of confession not even the those priests who were banned from the Church. So, it is impossible for any priest to break the seal of confession. If any priest ever do such a thing they will be excomunicated. Basically they will give their lives and will not reveal the seal of confession. Glory be to God.

 

[Corki]

CCC 1450 “Penance requires . . . the sinner to endure all things willingly, be contrite of heart, confess with the lips, and practice complete humility and fruitful satisfaction.”

It could be argued that any priest seeking forgiveness in confession who is not prepared to turn himself in to the legitimate authorities is lacking a firm purpose of amendment and would be incapable of showing complete humility and fruitful satisfaction for the hurt caused to the victim.

Yes, you could argue that. That’s not the** only **way that a penitent might show humility and firm purpose of ammendment, however. But it is up to the Confessor to decide if the penitent has contrition. If not, absolution could be withheld.

Purpose of ammendment is about the future, a determination not to commit the sin again. Not turning oneself in to authorities doesn’t necessarily mean that there is not purpose of ammendment.

Is this an avenue for confessors to take? I mean make absolution dependant on such obvious demonstrations of genuine contrition and desire for satisfaction.

Confessors already are supposed to make sure that the penitent has contrition. “Obvious demonstrations of genuine contrition” would be very hard to define and would be individual to each person. The obvious demonstrations couldn’t be anything that compels a penitent to disclose his/her sin.

Another thought, could the church make future acts of priestly child abuse an automatic excommunicable offence, for which absolution is granted only by the pope?

Yes, they probably could. The mechanics of excommunications are part of the disciplines of the Church and can be changed. But that wouldn’t change anything about breaking the seal.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Pax et Bonum. I am a Priest in Ireland.

“For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God,* who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification* comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing”. (Ga. 2:19-21)

I would joyfully suffer the cross for never ever breaking the seal of Confession.

God bless you all.

God bless and keep you safe and protected father. May no harm come to you. We pray. Peace of God and our Lord Jesus Christ follow you always.

 

[Vivemus]

Actually, there has been no shortage of prosections of priests in Ireland over this. It seems like every week there is another paedophile priest going before the courts and doing hard time for their crimes, and quite rightly too. I have no problem with this; but I’ve got a real problem with this legislation. I can’t interpret it as anything other than an anti-Catholic assault. It serves no purpose other than to harrass honest priests and I cannot see any way in which it will help bring paedophiles to justice. Nor is it necessary to have priests acting as snitches; the police seem to be doing a perfectly good job unearthing these men without clerical CIs.

To understand the motivation behind it, it would be necessary for me to take you on a sociological trawl back through the history of the Irish state, and I don’t suppose you have the time or inclination for that, so I’ll just say that this is a natural outcome of liberalism. I have, up till this point, always attempted not to jump on the bandwagon of liberal bashing, mainly because I didn’t much like many of those on the conservative side. But I now see that the difference is that whereas consevatism may draw dishonest people into its ranks with a view to advancing themselves, liberalism is rotton FROM the core; it is an inherently sick philosophy which cannot be redeemed, and I’m through making excuses for it.

Reading this topic troubled me. Not because of the seal of confession because that is not going to work anyway, but that I get the impression that people are not getting what is behind this goverment reaction.

This is not some anti catholic attack on the poor church, lead by an athestist minister. This is a reaction to a report that states that not only did a BISHOP not follow child protection policies, he lied and said he was. The report makes for very damning reading to the point that you wonder can you trust what any Bishop or the Vaitcan says about child abuse.

This report gave the goverment no choice (or golden opp) but to stand up to the church and say if you won’t do it yourself, then we will have to make you.

This was a perfect time for the hierarhcy to show that they were everything that they said they would for the protection of chidren. If they had we wouldn’t have this topic. But once again they failed the victims, the people of Ireland and the church.

 

[HOLY_POOH_FAN]

B]We leave it to Jesus whose is the Judgmet to decide the actual moral guilt of all involved. The relevant Vatican office - CDF for minors- decides the guilt of actions **taken. The civil courts decide the actual guilt of those who performed evil acts and of those who deliberately obstructed civil justice.
The Vatican has done all it can to date to give legal and pastoral guidance to the Church in each nation and this Pope has met with victims and apologized. Some will never be satisfied because for **them justice means revenge, getting even and that sadly is not the JESUS WAY of the Beatitides. We have seen examples of His way in the post-apartheid South Africa and in Ghandi’s India and in Dr Martin Luther King Jr in the USA and in many places such as N Ireland where people decided on love and forgiveness as well as in people who do not wish the death penalty for a family member’s murder in many cases in the US. Even dropping the death penalty in the west and in several US states and S Africa is a trend toward more compassion in civil society.
Assistiing each of us to follow the Beatitudes is basic common sense even though it defies our fallen human nature that seeks revenge. PEACE is Jesus’ Gift, not as the world gives but HIS brand of it that goes beyond vengeance, “satisfaction” “closure” and getting satisfaction from someone being punished severely.

 

[agnes_therese]

Pax et Bonum. I am a Priest in Ireland.

“For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God,* who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification* comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing”. (Ga. 2:19-21)

I would joyfully suffer the cross for never ever breaking the seal of Confession.

God bless you all.

Dear Father,

You and all the priests in Ireland are in my prayers.

 

[Phil1]

Thanks Corki for those insights.#61
Further though on the excommunication issue. If a priest was excommunicated latae sententiae for such an offence, he wouldn’t be able to receive absolution for this grave sin until the penalty was lifted. (ref. CCC 1463)

1. If the Priest tried to confess, the sacramental seal would not then be an issue as no valid sacrament took place.
2. A guilty priest seeking forgiveness would need to first have the penalty lifted, by say the Pope. In order to do this he would have to reveal the issue to someone outside the sacrament in order to obtain papal contact and absolution.

 

[Mark1970]

What I’m about so say may sound a bit OTT, but I’ve just had an uneasy thought about this issue, IF (big if!) it became law.

I have a vague memory of the subject of police “bugging” of confessionals being discussed, either in the UK or the EU. Can’t remember the outcome, but IF this became law - the possibility of “bugging” of confessionals could be a possibility to overcome priests not wanting to break the seal. If somebody was under suspicion and they were known as using a particular church for confesion - the confessional could be bugged.

As I say I know ut sounds OTT and highly improbable - but I’ve a memory of this coming up a few years ago. And I believe that at some point the Vatican condemned the audio recording of confessions. Perhaps somebody could do an Internet search?