On the Number of Sins which God Pardons No More

[TheTrinitySaves]

What on earth are you guys going on about?

Who says Hitler repented?

Who says your neighbor is in hell?

Did you look at the post I posted up above?

Yes I did and I agree with you. However they are saying that if you’re an atheist and don’t repent before you die you go to hell

 

[MarkInOregon]

Hello Mark,

I do deny that Hitlers “confession” was enough to get into heaven.

I don’t believe Hitler made a confession to a priest before he died. Indeed it would be my understanding that Hitler was anti-Christian, and he was no friend to the Catholic Church.

Did I miss the post where someone actually suggested Hitler made a confession–that he actually repented and confessed? I thought the discussion was more abstract than that–more along the lines of what does it take to get into heaven? I can’t help but feel you are responding to things no one is actually saying.

It would seem that you are still not listening to what is being said and you fail to address questions that are asked of you–for example in my earlier post I essentially asked if you believed a person could be given the grace to truly repent? I asked if you believe in true repentance? I further ask if you do indeed believe in it, in true repentance–what does that mean to you and what are the benefits of it? Are you arguing that God will refuse to offer some people the grace to truly repent? And finally I ask --how do you believe one gets to heaven? I am truly interested in understanding your view of repentance and getting to heaven.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Usagi]

If hitler is in heaven after murdering millions, but my athiest neighbor is not because he did not have time to “repent” after dying immediately in a car crash. If hitler is in heaven because he repented and is catholic, but the ones he killed are not for not being “catholic” or repenting to jesus before they died (which most of his victims did not believe or did not have time to repent before being killed). That sort of rhetoric is absolutely wrong and agaisnt church teachings. I do not believe you are trying to be harsh, but you are inadvertantly failing to connect the dots in your prior arguements.

Church teaching is this:

1. Those who die in a state of unrepentant mortal sin go to Hell. God knows whether they repented sincerely or not, and whether their sin was truly mortal. We are not to judge the soul or any individual, though we may state that certain behaviors are gravely sinful and will lead to Hell without mitigating circumstances or repentance.

Did Hitler (and Stalin, and Pol Pot, and Leopold II, and likely some of our own leaders) commit numerous and heinous mortal sins as a matter of public record? Certainly. Will those sins justly damn them to Hell if they were not repented? Also certainly. Is there any verifiable sign that any of those men did repent? No. Nevertheless, if they had, would they have been forgiven by God and granted Heaven (perhaps after considerable purification)? Yes – that’s how powerful we believe God’s love and mercy to be.

Is it possible for your atheist neighbor to die in a state of unrepentant mortal sin and be damned, even if his deeds were not as black as those of the worst of us? We must affirm that he could, but we do not say it is a certainty that atheism alone will put him in such a state, nor that his repentance has to be consciously offered to God or Jesus. As for “killed instantly before he had a chance,” God desires the salvation of all and knows all things from the foundation of the world, so I do not believe that He plays gotcha games based on an accident of timing. Presuming that one will have the opportunity to change one’s ways in the future is sinful and dangerous, but such scenarios are best applied as a warning to oneself, not to instill fear in others.

1. Those who die in a state of grace go ultimately to Heaven, with possibly a stopover in Purgatory.

There is no sinner in creation who has sinned “too much” to be forgiven. The love of God and the power of the Cross are that great. We cannot affirm as a certainty that all souls go to Heaven, because the possibility of damnation is real, but we do know that God’s care for each soul exceeds our own and that he offers saving grace to every single one of us, even if we have never heard of Him or have been taught to reject true things about Him.

So, despite its great unlikelihood, must we affirm that it is possible for Hitler (or an equally evil individual) to have repented and be counted among the saints? It seems we must. Further, that possibility is worthy of rejoicing, not anger – we should hope that even our greatest enemies are among those we meet in Heaven, because it is God’s will to save as many of us as will let Him.

Usagi

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

I don’t believe Hitler made a confession to a priest before he died. Indeed it would be my understanding that Hitler was anti-Christian, and he was no friend to the Catholic Church.

Did I miss the post where someone actually suggested Hitler made a confession–that he actually repented and confessed? I thought the discussion was more abstract than that–more along the lines of what does it take to get into heaven? I can’t help but feel you are responding to things no one is actually saying.

It would seem that you are still not listening to what is being said and you fail to address questions that are asked of you–for example in my earlier post I essentially asked if you believed a person could be given the grace to truly repent? I asked if you believe in true repentance? I further ask if you do indeed believe in it, in true repentance–what does that mean to you and what are the benefits of it? Are you arguing that God will refuse to offer some people the grace to truly repent? And finally I ask --how do you believe one gets to heaven? I am truly interested in understanding your view of repentance and getting to heaven.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

Yes I believe in true repentance. True repentance is realizing that your prior actions were truly wrong and asking god for forgiveness out of the bottom of your heart. True repentance is not begging for gods mercy out of a fear of going to hell. The benifets of true repentance apply to humans in ALMOST all situations. Repentance gives us hope and awe of Gods tremendous mercy for us. However there are some situations where the sinner has gone to far or it is to late. Even if he does repent he has caused to much pain and ignored suffering for two long for it to be considered valid. Hitler is that example (Very rare, only a handful of the worst have acheived this)

 

[Wesrock]

Ok lets take a look.

1. You claim Hitler repented and confessed, and is now in heaven because of it. I highly doubt his confession/repentance was sincere, but more in the fact that he feared the firey pits of hell. Just because he was washed of his original sin at baptism and may have repented does not give you a ticket through the gates.

He would have to have repented. Not just “publicly,” but truly. And that’s not because he was Catholic, but because he was a man.

 

[mVitus]

Yes I believe in true repentance. True repentance is realizing that your prior actions were truly wrong and asking god for forgiveness out of the bottom of your heart. True repentance is not begging for gods mercy out of a fear of going to hell. The benifets of true repentance apply to humans in ALMOST all situations. Repentance gives us hope and awe of Gods tremendous mercy for us. However there are some situations where the sinner has gone to far or it is to late. Even if he does repent he has caused to much pain and ignored suffering for two long for it to be considered valid. Hitler is that example (Very rare, only a handful of the worst have acheived this)

The beginning of that post was describing perfect contrition. (Though keep in mind imperfect contrition is sufficient for confession to a priest.)

The latter part is wrong. God’s mercy is greater than any sin. Even Hitler did not exceed God’s mercy if he repented.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes I did and I agree with you. However they are saying that if you’re an atheist and don’t repent before you die you go to hell

Well they perhaps can read to my post above.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14414202&postcount=70

 

[MarkInOregon]

Yes I believe in true repentance. True repentance is realizing that your prior actions were truly wrong and asking god for forgiveness out of the bottom of your heart. True repentance is not begging for gods mercy out of a fear of going to hell. The benifets of true repentance apply to humans in ALMOST all situations. Repentance gives us hope and awe of Gods tremendous mercy for us. However there are some situations where the sinner has gone to far or it is to late. Even if he does repent he has caused to much pain and ignored suffering for two long for it to be considered valid. Hitler is that example (Very rare, only a handful of the worst have acheived this)

Thank you for your answer–I think that helps. Would you cite the Church document that teaches what I have bolded above or tell me where you believe you find this in Church teaching–where the idea that some are beyond Gods mercy and that it is too late for them to repent while they are still alive on earth can be found.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Thank you for your answer–I think that helps. Would you cite the Church document that teaches what I have bolded above or tell me where you believe you find this in Church teaching–where the idea that some are beyond Gods mercy and that it is too late for them to repent while they are still alive on earth can be found.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

Hello,
Thanks for having this discussion. I will provide some evidence.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely **taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68 **

And

Nahum 3:19

 

[AdamP88]

Yes I believe in true repentance. True repentance is realizing that your prior actions were truly wrong and asking god for forgiveness out of the bottom of your heart. True repentance is not begging for gods mercy out of a fear of going to hell. ** The benifets of true repentance apply to humans in ALMOST all situations. Repentance gives us hope and awe of Gods tremendous mercy for us. However there are some situations where the sinner has gone to far or it is to late.** Even if he does repent he has caused to much pain and ignored suffering for two long for it to be considered valid. Hitler is that example (Very rare, only a handful of the worst have acheived this)

That is just not Church Teaching. You’re wrong. The church teaches that as long as a person is alive, they can return to God and gain heaven.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

That is just not Church Teaching. You’re wrong. The church teaches that as long as a person is alive, they can return to God and gain heaven.

I have posted my evidence, none of you have posted any evidence. Just talking point

 

[mVitus]

Hello,
Thanks for having this discussion. I will provide some evidence.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely **taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68 **

And

Nahum 3:19

The Catechism says that because executing someone may very well deprive them of the time they need to repent, not because they literally can’t repent.

And while I’m not Bible expert, so I’ll leave that to others, I would like to point out Nahum 1:7, emphasis on “He takes care of those who turn to Him.”

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

The Catechism says that because executing someone may very well deprive them of the time they need to repent, not because they literally can’t repent.

And while I’m not Bible expert, so I’ll leave that to others, I would like to point out Nahum 1:7, emphasis on “He takes care of those who turn to Him.”

Will anyone post a shred of evidence for their viewpoint?

 

[MarkInOregon]

Hello,
Thanks for having this discussion. I will provide some evidence.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely **taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68 **

And

Nahum 3:19

You are welcome.

I’m failing to see how the above CCC reference regarding the death penalty supports the claim you have been making–i.e. the claim that some are beyond redemption. I would read this quote to say the opposite. This quote seems to say that all are redeemable, and that by using the death penalty we may be taking away the time needed for the individual to redeem himself–but please note the individual is not beyond redemption. So I don’t see this quote as evidence for your position. Perhaps you can clarify your thoughts on this?

I will have to read Nahum in context to determine what it seems to be saying before I can comment on it.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

You are welcome–its what these forums are for–if we can all just keep it civil–perhaps we can all learn something.

I’m failing to see how the above CCC reference regarding the death penalty supports the claim you have been making–i.e. the claim that some are beyond redemption. I would read this quote to say the opposite. This quote seems to say that all are redeemable, and that by using the death penalty we may be taking away the time needed for the individual to redeem himself–but please note the individual is not beyond redemption. So I don’t see this quote as evidence for your position. Perhaps you can clarify your thoughts on this?

I will have to read Nahum in context to determine what it seems to be saying before I can comment on it.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

Why would the church allow us to kill extremely evil individuals on very rare ocassions if their not already past the point of no return in terms of repenting?

 

[fbl9]

Yes I believe in true repentance. True repentance is realizing that your prior actions were truly wrong and asking god for forgiveness out of the bottom of your heart. True repentance is not begging for gods mercy out of a fear of going to hell. The benifets of true repentance apply to humans in ALMOST all situations. Repentance gives us hope and awe of Gods tremendous mercy for us. However there are some situations where the sinner has gone to far or it is to late. Even if he does repent he has caused to much pain and ignored suffering for two long for it to be considered valid. Hitler is that example (Very rare, only a handful of the worst have acheived this)

I understand your opinion, it just that your opinion, to my knowledge, does not confirm with the teaching of the Church.
Do you agree with the fact that one mortal sin separates one from God?
You seem to imply there is a limit to the number of sins that can be forgiven, but it grossly large in number. Correct?
If so is there a reference from the Church that teaches this?
Who else to do you believe is one on the list of the few evil ones.? i ask so that we can get some kind of range regarding the number.

 

[mVitus]

Why would the church allow us to kill extremely evil individuals on very rare ocassions if their not already past the point of no return in terms of repenting?

Because protecting the saftey of innocents takes precedence. That’s also why it should only be done when necessary to protect innocent lives. And, as noted, it’s rarely needed in today’s society with secure prisons like we have,

 

[fbl9]

Why would the church allow us to kill extremely evil individuals on very rare ocassions if their not already past the point of no return in terms of repenting?

Yes the Church also condones killing in self defense. Are these persons also so evil they are beyond redemption?

 

[LilyM]

Why would the church allow us to kill extremely evil individuals on very rare ocassions if their not already past the point of no return in terms of repenting?

It has nothing to do with their repentance or lack thereof, instead it is to do with their ongoing potential risk to other members of society. For the same reason we are permitted to kill, in self-defence, morally blameless enemy soldiers or even innocent animals if they pose a risk to our lives.

 

[AdamP88]

Will anyone post a shred of evidence for their viewpoint?

Firstly, your “evidence” is from the section in the Catechism referring to the death penalty. It basically means that execution should be a rare thing, because it may deprive someone of the opportunity they need to repent. (Because anyone can repent while still alive).

This actually doesn’t support your view because implicit in this article is the idea that a person who is in a state of grave sin may repent before the end of their lives. That is the reason that execution is not to be taken lightly. You still have not produced any evidence that supports your view that certain sinners may not be admitted to heaven even if they genuinely repent before the end of their lives.

“(Jesus) said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.’” (Jn. 20:21-23)

“Let us not listen to those who deny that the Church of God is able to forgive all sins. They are wretched indeed, because they do not recognize in Peter the rock and they and they refuse to believe that the keys of the kingdom of heaven… have been given to the Church.” (St. Augustine, Doctor of the Church, c. 397 A.D.)

As you see above, the church has the power to forgive ALL sins. No exceptions. God is capable of working outside the sacraments as well to forgive those who, perhaps repent very close to the end and without receiving absolution.