pasted on skin tight pants!

[stinkcat_14]

So let me get this straight you guys are actually defending nude women serving as Cantors and Lecturs at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?

Certainly when these women were catechized they taught about Christian modesty and that the practice of bare breasts or in the males case naked nether regions is not appropriate.

Has there ever been any evidence that a papal mass included nude males as cantors? To my knowledge, no. Now, I have seen the pictures of the bare breasted lector. Is that necessarily immodest. In your opinion, yes. But, unfortunately, your opinion is not the magestarium of the church. In that context of where the lector was performing her duties there is a legitamite argument that she was being appropriately modest.

 

[Ecce_homo_1]

Has there ever been any evidence that a papal mass included nude males as cantors? To my knowledge, no. Now, I have seen the pictures of the bare breasted lector. Is that necessarily immodest. In your opinion, yes. But, unfortunately, your opinion is not the magestarium of the church. In that context of where the lector was performing her duties there is a legitamite argument that she was being appropriately modest.

I was throwing in the male part of as to not be accused of being a misogynist. I wanted to be fair that the same goes for men and women.

It is immodest according to Christianity and the God of the Bible, because of Adam and Eve’s sin our nakedness leads us to sin and shame, it is not just me, according to the Aztecs killing a P.O.W. to your god as a sacrifice and eating his flesh was fine with their culture, upon becoming a Christian though that sort of stuff has to stop.

Explaining the need for at least a shirt wouldn’t have been too difficult, it was a mistake and scandalized the Church probably forever, I can see 500 years from now those pictures floating around to prove apostasy or something. There’s nothing wrong with admitting a mistake and movin on.

 

[childofmary1143]

How does a single case of immodest clothing turn into the GREAT THEOLOGICAL DEBATE? Marilena acted well based on what she said and her Priest supported what she said.

Why are we keep repeating over and over and over again?

Get on with it.

This morning this thread was early into Page 3 now its page 10 and will probably be 100 pages by tomorrow morning. Isn’t this analyzing it too much???

 

[Marilena]

this thread reminded me of another belief that believes in modesty. the jw’s. when i was a jw, it was and still is mandatory for a woman to wear a dress or skirt below the knee. simply ask oneif iam correct next time you get an opprtunity to have them at your door.

it was considered scandalous for a woman to come to the meetings dressed in a pair of pants! women were not allowed to dress scandalously. they still aren’t there either.

women have to cover their heads in the jw belief when there are no batpized elders around to talk at the meetings, or a baptized male in the congregation.

 

[Marilena]

How does a single case of immodest clothing turn into the GREAT THEOLOGICAL DEBATE? Marilena acted well based on what she said and her Priest supported what she said.

Why are we keep repeating over and over and over again?

Get on with it.

This morning this thread was early into Page 3 now its page 10 and will probably be 100 pages by tomorrow morning. Isn’t this analyzing it too much???

if you don’t want to see the thread get longer, then please don’t reply to it. there are varying view points, and people are entitled to post their viewpoint are they not? there is more than one aspect to a situation of immodest clothing. let them post. is it criminal for others to post if they want to? does it violate CAF’s rules? no. if you think its too long, then start a thread of your own and post as much as you want. i like to read what people have to say regardless of whether or not i agree with their statements, and that includes your post as well.

 

[bear06]

For the record I’ve corrected a few men in my day who came to Mass unshaven and wearing dirty sweatpants and tank tops. If they were offended by my friendly chiding I don’t really care to be honest they’re big boys they’ll get over it. I’ve never corrected a woman, as a man it’s not really my place and may be taken badly, I’ll leave that to my sisters…

Good job Marilena, if all of us would police our own for all sorts of liturgical abuses, improper dress etc… The Church would be a much better place.

I once went to Mass after a long weekend hiking and had no clothes to change into, I didn’t want to miss Mass so I went to a Church a mile or so off the trail, I received a stern talking to for coming to Mass dirty and unkempt by the usher so I stood in the back and didn’t go into the receiving line, I sat there and took it and was happy that people still care enough to police their Church and get on me for being a slob.

OK, I agree with you that Marilena’s actions were OK. That said, there’s a bit of a difference in explaining someone the error of their ways when they’re dressed in skin tight, immoral, provacative clothes and when they’re wearing jeans, sweats, etc. People wearing clothes that are immoral shouldn’t be wearing those clothes anywhere at anytime. Not so for sweats, jeans, etc… We have no idea why someone would be wearing these even though we could guess and be quite accurate for most. If they were, perhaps, the 1 in 100 who’s car broke down on the way back from their camping trip and they arrived in town just in time to make the last Mass of the day then I’m certainly not going to fault them or insist that they can’t go to Communion. In fact, when I see someone dressed slovenly I try my best to ignore it and pray, in general, that society realizes that they should wear better clothes to Mass.

I think Marilena was venting among friends and I can see why people thought, off the bat, that she might have really chastised this girl but she’s explained she did it in a very loving, motherly manor.

Dress is a sticky subject. We cannot always be bound by what might turn someone on because for some, that might be a wrist or ankle showing. That’s more their problem than ours. That said, there are some obviously inappropriate outfits to wear to Mass. When it comes down to it, one really must ask themselves if they’d truly feel comfortable wearing an outfit if they could actually see Christ’s face standing before them. I’m sure some would try to say they’d feel fine in a bikini but I think, in reality, most would be more like Adam and Eve and want to cover up.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

I was throwing in the male part of as to not be accused of being a misogynist. I wanted to be fair that the same goes for men and women.

It is immodest according to Christianity and the God of the Bible, because of Adam and Eve’s sin our nakedness leads us to sin and shame, it is not just me, according to the Aztecs killing a P.O.W. to your god as a sacrifice and eating his flesh was fine with their culture, upon becoming a Christian though that sort of stuff has to stop.

Explaining the need for at least a shirt wouldn’t have been too difficult, it was a mistake and scandalized the Church probably forever, I can see 500 years from now those pictures floating around to prove apostasy or something. There’s nothing wrong with admitting a mistake and movin on.

The parallel between bare breasts and human sacrifice is a difficult one to draw. Killing innocents is an intrinsic evil. There are intrinsic evils that are evil in every case.

Immodesty, however, is a vice and is culture specific.

[7] Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons.

Where did the “aprons” cover? Do you know? I do not. Yes they were no longer naked but what is clothed and what parts held what shame is still an individual question.

How these cultural phenomena get adapted to Christian living is a prudential question, not like sacrificing innocents to a mythical Mayan god. Since it is prudential it is possible that the Church erred. It is more likely that private individuals will err in prudential judgements regarding virtues than the Church.

When in doubt, be obedient to the bride of Christ and seek to resolve that doubt. In prudential matters I like to be very certain before criticizing the Church in public.

peace

 

[Ecce_homo_1]

People wearing clothes that are immoral shouldn’t be wearing those clothes anywhere at anytime. Not so for sweats, jeans, etc… We have no idea why someone would be wearing these even though we could guess and be quite accurate for most. If they were, perhaps, the 1 in 100 who’s car broke down on the way back from their camping trip and they arrived in town just in time to make the last Mass of the day then I’m certainly not going to fault them or insist that they can’t go to Communion. In fact, when I see someone dressed slovenly I try my best to ignore it and pray, in general, that society realizes that they should wear better clothes to Mass.

I was actually serving as an usher and we recieved instruction to say something to the men showing up in tank tops and dishelved looking sweat pants. I don’t have an issue with jeans as long as you’re put together O.K. Same reason you can tell a man to remove his cap inside. There’s nothing wrong with it, most understood they were getting way too lax and took it O.K. Some came back next week in a tank top and sweats just to be beligerant and our head usher told them to leave, they’re here to participate in the Mass, not make some statement, they’ve been talked to about it, and the Pastor himself is asking the ushers to speak to folks are really pushing the limits of good taste at Mass, and they should go home and change. If they had a medical problem that forced them to wear sweatpants (not sure what that would be) they could simply explain that no problems at all.

If everyone stopped ignoring the plain and visible and very easily fixable problems in our Church it would be a much better place.

 

[historyb]

You know (said to no on one in particular) I have seen a lot that in this thread. From the down right people who choose to attack those of us to the ones who are sympathetic. I seen all matter of silly examples trotted out like they are trophies to be admired.

One goes so far as to say the sick need a Doctor, as if others don’t need one. Another gives a story about some monks and expects us all to quiet under the modern bit of thinking which has nothing to do with a Mass.

Even the sick are dressed appropriately when they are receiving care and if those same monks went to Mass dressed in anything but their chosen uniform, I dare say they would be soundly disciplined.

The modern mind is a curious thing, it thinks that we must be open to everything. Yet it’s let’s in nothing. We squandered our Traditions and call it good, we want to only hear things that are pleasing and we pay no heed to respect anymore. All that is old now, time for the new the Modern man says. Yet the new has not gotten great results, the new have done a horrible job.

Why right here some think we should rejoice when some comes before the very Lord of Lords with no respect shown or even intended. A sad state of affairs man has become when they decided to leave God behind

 

[fix]

now I’m beginning to fear that you are twisting my words.

The best I can tell you is that you misunderstand my posts. I have not said that doing nothing was the prudent thing to do. I have posted already what I believe to have been the prudent thing to do in this case.

Anyone and everyone is free to disagree. The buck certainly does not stop here with me. I am, after all and at the end of the day, a sinner.

I am not twisting anything. If I misunderstood your position I am sorry, but this is what I was referring to:

The issue at hand is not correction. It is the appropriateness of the correction. If this woman were an aquaintance of the OP, or a family member, I would have said, “good for you, OP!” But as a stranger, never having seen this woman before, it was not her place to say a word to the offensively dressed woman. Damage could be done beyond the OP’s ability to repair. Say something to an usher or to Father? of course.

 

[bear06]

I was actually serving as an usher and we recieved instruction to say something to the men showing up in tank tops and dishelved looking sweat pants. I don’t have an issue with jeans as long as you’re put together O.K. Same reason you can tell a man to remove his cap inside. There’s nothing wrong with it, most understood they were getting way too lax and took it O.K. Some came back next week in a tank top and sweats just to be beligerant and our head usher told them to leave, they’re here to participate in the Mass, not make some statement, they’ve been talked to about it, and the Pastor himself is asking the ushers to speak to folks are really pushing the limits of good taste at Mass, and they should go home and change. If they had a medical problem that forced them to wear sweatpants (not sure what that would be) they could simply explain that no problems at all.

If everyone stopped ignoring the plain and visible and very easily fixable problems in our Church it would be a much better place.

I don’t think it’s the ushers jobs to talk to the folks pushing the limits. That’s the Pastors. He then could find the reasoning and offer counseling.

Canonically, the priest would have to know that this person is a public (which would be pretty hard), obstinate sinner to deny him the Sacraments. It would seem that if the priest had a pair of pants ready for him to put on and the person denied he might have more of a leg to stand on canonically but it would still seem difficult.

Anyways, don’t get me wrong, I’m all for people wearing ties and dresses to Mass or, at the very least the best they’ve got (and no, I’m not talking about formal attire that would unnecessarily draw attention to themselves) It might be really nice if Churches had jackets and really big scarves to throw on those wearing skin tight pants.

 

[maurin]

I am not twisting anything. If I misunderstood your position I am sorry, but this is what I was referring to:

And had you continued your underlining of my post you would have seen that I was not suggesting nothing be done.

I accept your apology with thanks and good will.

 

[Ecce_homo_1]

I don’t think it’s the ushers jobs to talk to the folks pushing the limits. That’s the Pastors. He then could find the reasoning and offer counseling.

Canonically, the priest would have to know that this person is a public (which would be pretty hard), obstinate sinner to deny him the Sacraments. It would seem that if the priest had a pair of pants ready for him to put on and the person denied he might have more of a leg to stand on canonically but it would still seem difficult.:

Our Church is very liberal in many areas, but if kids where T-Shirts that are rude or depict demons they’re told to leave or go turn it inside out. And the ushers politely asked a small amount of men to not wear tank tops to Mass in the future, only when a couple came back wearing a ridiculous undershirt tank top on purpose to make a statement were they told to leave.

Our Church has 4,500 Parishoners, the Pastor can’t individually speak to every person really pushing the limits of appropriate attire.

Like I said the Church is pretty liberal, shorts and sandals probably won’t get a second look, it was only when people were really going overboard.

 

[Marilena]

i have written Jo Benedict, moderator of the forum and mentioned that some of the posters think this post is too long.
perhaps it is. but if she does shut it down, i want you all to know that i really appreciate your participation in this thread. it has indeed been bigger than i thought.

however, that being said, i want you all to know that while i have not agreed with some of you, it does not mean i do not appreciate your point of view, i do.

for those who supported me, thanks. i appreciate that as well.
the point of posting is for dialogue even if we agree or not.it suppose it was a vent post. but, it did bring up very interesting viewpoints, alot of which i was surprised at.

thanks in particular to the mods who let it go as long as they did. we appreciate the hard job you have to do in moderating posts, and it can’t always be easy to be a mod.

again, i do not regret my decision to speak with this young lady regarding our dress code. i had spoken to the priest about it last night, and as far as iam concerned, i did the right thing, and have been told as much by my priest.

 

[MrS]

452 posts on skin tight pants… in just under 24 hours…

absolutely amazing

 

[Marilena]

yes, it is amazing isn’t it? iam surrpised myself. ( quite actually! )

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

Why right here some think we should rejoice when some comes before the very Lord of Lords with no respect shown or even intended. A sad state of affairs man has become when they decided to leave God behind

I wrote

If you can say in your heart, He is there under the appearances of bread and wine, then you do know and in your heart of hearts rejoice in knowing.

I cannot tell if it is my post being criticized, but I hope not. If you recognize what the Eucharist is it is your duty to receive, to put yourself forward and receive.

I do think in knowing is an obligation to approach as He intended us to, free from mortal sin and with humility, note the order here:

If you are weary and I am too often weary, go to Him in prayer, in adoration, in confession, and ascend then to communion.

In the future, if you have problems with posts, could you be more specific, so they can be addressed? We’re all in this together. Thanks! --mike

 

[historyb]

It wasn’t any post at all, just the sad state that modern men think it’s beneath them to respect our Lord.

 

[Marilena]

is there any particular scripture in the NT about modesty? i believe there is. Does anyone know where it is? if so, can you post it here?

 

[Marilena]

wow, look what i found on modesty!!!

MODESTY IN DRESS
scripturecatholic.com/modest_dress.html

Women are incredible creatures. By being able to bring human life into the world, women participate in the divine life of the Blessed Trinity more intimately than men could ever do. In short, women are sacred tabernacles of the Most High God, cooperating with the creator in populating His heaven for all eternity. What a tremendous gift are women!

Because of the woman’s dignified status among God’s creatures, women have grave responsibilities. Through their roles as wives and mothers, women help bring about the perfection of the human race in Christ. To that end, one can even say that women dictate the moral conscience of society. When moral standards among women falter, society falters as well. This is painfully evident in our society today. The “women’s liberation movement,” which has made contraception, abortion and same sex unions matters of “choice,” has brought our civilization to the brink of judgment and hell.

The importance of woman’s dress cannot be overemphasized. For the last 2,000 years, the popes have repeatedly implored women to dress modestly, emphasizing that immodest dress can be a proximate occasion of sin. Dressing immodestly can allure men into committing sins of unchastity. Women have a moral obligation to avoid enticing men with immodest apparel. When a woman deliberately dresses immodestly (that is, dressing “to attract” instead of dressing “attractively”), she is committing sin and separating herself from God. The sin may be venial or mortal, depending on the degree of her immodesty, as well as other circumstances.

1 Peter 2:11 – Peter says “Beloved, I beseech you as aliens and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh that wage war against your soul.” When a woman dresses immodestly, she is waging war on the souls of men. If the man ultimately loses the battle, he perishes in hell for all eternity. The man has the responsibility to surrender his disordered passions to Christ, but the woman has the responsibility to not invoke these passions with immodest dress.

read more:

scripturecatholic.com/modest_dress.html