Poll: Circumcision: yes or know?

[kamz]

I could not agree with you more gomer, I only have posted so many times as I feel like I have to keep trying to get across that it is not a sin either way and that either way is just fine.
I certainly am not judging people who choose not to circ their sons and I would like to have that same respect and not just that but to educate that there are pro’s and con’s to both sides.

Nobody is wrong on this issue and that is all I would like to get at, the only thing that is wrong is to say one way or the other is the only way or the only moral way, that is not ok.

 

[Intrntsrch]

My dad is, I’m not. It’s just easier to keep clean. I assure that I am not pyschologically damaged because of it and at the very least, I don’t remember it anyway.

 

[WhiteDove]

I notice that folks on both sides of this discussion are awfully defensive and keep coming back to repeat their points again and again. I wonder why? If it’s no big deal and you truly respect that different folks have different strokes, why not just let it rest?

However, I suspect that it IS a big deal for some of you and you DO have strong feelings, opinions and judgements about this issue, even while you say otherwise. There’s an awful lot of emotion behind some of these posts that is very easily detectable!!! :ehh:

 

[kamz]

Whitedove,

I don’t care weather a person circs their child or not I only find problems when a person says its immoral, mutilation or comparable to abortion because that is not a fair statement.

I don’t feel defensive about circumcision weather a person chooses it or not, who cares, its so dumb, I only feel annoyed that people who choose not to circumcise can’t just make that statement like (we chose not to circumcise our sons and we are happy with that choice) no, they have to say(we didn’t do it because it is so terrible and the baby was brutilized and its almost like abortion and its immoral and we read this and this and its so bad for you etc.) That is all I have felt annoyed about, if my children have children someday and they have sons and they don’t circ them, woopy doo, I could careless, I just don’t see where one side can act like they know it all. I don’t pretend to know it all, I only know that circumcising is not immoral, not a sin, not brutal, not against the Catholic churches teaching and I know that not circumcising is all that also.
What this whole dumb thing should come down to is nobody is wrong in this, nobody and let it go. Amen

 

[tee_eff_em]

This is one of those topics familar to readers of USENET news and some mailing lists, because when people post about it they disguise it like “crcmc*s**n”, otherwise a huge flamefest descends upon the environment.

It’s a religious issue – not Jew vs Gentile, but in that both sides have deeply held beliefs. Other hot-button religious topics include: OS and text-editor.

Oh, and also: Santa Claus (usually couched as: “Do you LIE to your children!?”)

tee

PS.
The right answers are: Unix, XEmacs, and “Yeah, I tell my children stories, but I don’t go overboard about it”.
Anyone who says different is a heretic who should be burned.

 

[Ham1]

kamz:

Whitedove,

I don’t care weather a person circs their child or not I only find problems when a person says its immoral, mutilation or comparable to abortion because that is not a fair statement.

I don’t feel defensive about circumcision weather a person chooses it or not, who cares, its so dumb, I only feel annoyed that people who choose not to circumcise can’t just make that statement like (we chose not to circumcise our sons and we are happy with that choice) no, they have to say(we didn’t do it because it is so terrible and the baby was brutilized and its almost like abortion and its immoral and we read this and this and its so bad for you etc.) That is all I have felt annoyed about, if my children have children someday and they have sons and they don’t circ them, woopy doo, I could careless, I just don’t see where one side can act like they know it all. I don’t pretend to know it all, I only know that circumcising is not immoral, not a sin, not brutal, not against the Catholic churches teaching and I know that not circumcising is all that also.
What this whole dumb thing should come down to is nobody is wrong in this, nobody and let it go. Amen

You are certainly free to make the moral judgement that the act is neutral. Some of us think that it is not.

The reason (as I have stated before) that I believe this act to POSSIBLY be immoral is because it violates the following principle:

One should not subject one’s child to a painful/increased health risk procedure for a purely arbitrary reason.

What part of this statement do you disagree with?

In order to make a legitimate case for the moral neutrality of the act then you need to show which part of the above statement is flawed.

 

[debi]

I did not want to have my son (17 now) circumcised, my husband did want it - I think so they’d “look the same” anyway, before delivery I said yes to the question. When we were to take him home I asked when they were going to do it. Much to my surprise, my OB said he didn’t believe in it and wouldn’t do it, and my pediatrician said he would not do it either. Hmm here we are ready to go home and two specialists (I was High risk) would not perform this procedure. They told us our option was to leave him in the hospital for another day (without me) until a urologist could come in or to take him to one later. This convinced my husband that perhaps he was OK the way god made him. We have taught him, along with the pediatrician how to care for himself.

ps worst problem was the hospital charged us for the circumcision since I had said yes to the question and I almost had to bring him to the hospital to prove to them to take the charges off our bill.
blessings

 

[OhioBob]

gomer tree:

What I really can’t figure out is why people feel so strongly about this that they are admonishing others who don’t think the way they do?

I stated my reasons for wanting to circumsize. I am comfortable with it. It is not against Church teaching. If others wish to do otherwise, I really could give a hoot. Just stop being so self-righteous to those who think otherwise, please.

Double Amen to that.



And I LOVE ketchup!

 

[darcee]

Ham1:

You are certainly free to make the moral judgement that the act is neutral. Some of us think that it is not.

The reason (as I have stated before) that I believe this act to POSSIBLY be immoral is because it violates the following principle:

If it was immoral Our Blessed Mother and Saint Joseph wouldn’t have had the infant Christ circ’ed God would not have commanded it as a testament of His covenant. Since it is NOT required now it is not immoral to not do it, but it can’t be immoral to do it.
-D

 

[bquinnan]

kamz:

I was with all my sons when they were circumcised and none of them cried at all, they were given a atopical pain med like when you get stitches they can rub on some liquid and it numbs it and you feel nothing. They never fussed once while I cleaned their circ while diapering and they were healed within one week.

With my older son, the nurse took him away, got the job done and brought him back. With my second son, they asked me to come along. He turned bright red and screamed as best he could with newborn vocal cords. (They don’t get much practice in the womb.)

I’m not sure I’ll do it again if we have another boy. Our third was a girl, so we didn’t have to worry about it. I’ve heard parents of uncircumsized boys sometimes complain about problems that arise later – and one who went back and had it done because of the problems. But most seem fine with it.

 

[OhioBob]

WhiteDove:

I notice that folks on both sides of this discussion are awfully defensive and keep coming back to repeat their points again and again. I wonder why? If it’s no big deal and you truly respect that different folks have different strokes, why not just let it rest?

However, I suspect that it IS a big deal for some of you and you DO have strong feelings, opinions and judgements about this issue, even while you say otherwise. There’s an awful lot of emotion behind some of these posts that is very easily detectable!!! :ehh:

Believe me, as an owner of the aforementioned apparatus (in it’s adapted state), it is not a big deal for me - either as an adult or as a parent of a circumcised son.

I think that the emotional responses on this thread are the natural result of a parent being accused of either:

a: Mutilating their own child, or,
b: Sinning before God (by mutilating their own child)

Both accusations are baseless, judgemental, uncharitable and condescending to a thoughtful parent and would naturally tend to generate an emotional response.

Is that really so hard to fathom? It shouldn’t come as a big surprise.

 

[bquinnan]

debi:

my husband did want it - I think so they’d “look the same” anyway

I’ve head this argument too – I honestly can’t remember a single time where my brother and I “compared.”

 

[OhioBob]

Ham1:

You are certainly free to make the moral judgement that the act is neutral. Some of us think that it is not.

The reason (as I have stated before) that I believe this act to POSSIBLY be immoral is because it violates the following principle:

One should not subject one’s child to a painful/increased health risk procedure for a purely arbitrary reason.

What part of this statement do you disagree with?

In order to make a legitimate case for the moral neutrality of the act then you need to show which part of the above statement is flawed.

The part of the statement that is arguably “flawed” is the “purely arbitrary reason” part. There is medical evidence supporting certain benefits in favor of circumcision. Whether someone holds that evidence to be convincing or not is a judgement call for a parent to make, as is your judgement that the reasons are “purely arbitrary”.

I assume you are either a circumcised male or a parent of a male child. If not, your credibility to speak on the issue is pretty weak.

IMHO, your logical construct is not as iron clad as you apparently think it is. But you are certainly entitled to hold that point of view. Just don’t get huffy if I don’t.

 

[yochumjy]

tee_eff_em:

Other hot-button religious topics include: OS and text-editor.

PS.
The right answers are: Unix, XEmacs, …
Anyone who says different is a heretic who should be burned.

Friend, I believe you mispelled one word. vim is spelled v-i-m, not X-E-m-a-c-s.


Sorry, couldn’t resist…

 

[Ham1]

OhioBob:

The part of the statement that is arguably “flawed” is the “purely arbitrary reason” part. There is medical evidence supporting certain benefits in favor of circumcision. Whether someone holds that evidence to be convincing or not is a judgement call for a parent to make, as is your judgement that the reasons are “purely arbitrary”.

I assume you are either a circumcised male or a parent of a male child. If not, your credibility to speak on the issue is pretty weak.

IMHO, your logical construct is not as iron clad as you apparently think it is. But you are certainly entitled to hold that point of view. Just don’t get huffy if I don’t.

Lighten up there, Bob!

If I thought my statement was “iron-clad”, then I wouldn’t have typed “POSSIBLY immoral.”

I just want to have a rational discussion on the issue. A discussion devoid of feelings end emotions. I want to debate the issue without just saying, “It’s wrong” or “it’s okay.” I am not 100% certain of my position and that’s why I thought this might be a good issue to examine carefully.

Commendably, you are the first to bring a response and I am grateful. By “arbitrary” I was trying to include those who just want the son’s penis to look like Dad’s. You are right that health considerations would be different. The physicians that I have spoken to and what I have read indicate that there is no clearcut (no pun intended) health advantage either way. Certainly if there was a clear advantage one way or the other that would probably entail some moral obligation of the parent to either circumcise or not.

I am not getting huffy. I just want to have a rational discussion of the issue not just a series of posts saying, “you’re wrong” “no you are.”

As far as being a parent of a male child, I am. But I don’t think at all that one has to be a parent to have credibility on this. We are evaluating whether or not a human act is a moral act. It is a point of moral theology that we are debating not personal opinion.
I hope this helps to clear this up.

 

[Elizabeth]

My answer is no, I wouldn’t circumcise and that is just as much because I am from England as anything else; it is has just not been a standard practice there. I was surprised to receive a form at my pre-natal clinic in the U.S. to make a choice, yes or no. We were advised by medical staff to make sure we stipulated our choice of ‘no’ just in case silence constituted consent, i.e. the tendency is to circumcise and we may find a lack of written objection may have the matter taken into (and off by) someone else’s hands!!!

I think my husband’s choice was rather like his preference to not have our male dog neutered - a kind of empathy in not wanting to have male things interfered with, as it were! And of course the ‘ouch’ factor!! (If not at the time then later). Anyway, no problem - I had two girls!

One last thing; if we are that concerned with being different, why are we Christians??!!

 

[kamz]

Ham1,

I know that I don’t know all the answers, um, that would be up to God, I know that I can’t make a statement that this or that is morally right or wrong. But you just keep coming back with statemtns as though you had taken this up with some higher power and that your statements are blessed by God to be the truth. All we can do is wait until we get to heaven and then God will answers all things in his time. Until that time why can’t you just leave it alone? I’ll happily leave it alone when you can make a statement that says ( MAYBE this is immoral or wrong, in my opinion but I don’t speak for God just myself) but you just keep coming back with something or other.
Ham1 Maybe I’m wrong thinking that circing or not circing is up to my husband and I and someday when I get to heaven I’ll get set straight, ok. But until then I won’t judge you if you don’t judge me.
This is not the same as abortion, homosexuality, living in sin, things that are cut and dry written out for us in the bible, if I was debating you on those you could clearly tell me where in the bible I could find that those things God has addressed. But he has not said anything in the bible that says (you shall not circumcise you son for it is morally wrong, sinful, whatever, whatever, so LEAVE IT ALONE, PLEASE!!!

 

[OhioBob]

Ham1:

Lighten up there, Bob! …

As far as being a parent of a male child, I am. But I don’t think at all that one has to be a parent to have credibility on this. We are evaluating whether or not a human act is a moral act. It is a point of moral theology that we are debating not personal opinion.
I hope this helps to clear this up.

I’m trying to lighten up, HAM. I’ve been on Atkins for months. It’s working pretty well too. :dancing:

By credibility I wasn’t referring to the right to have an opinion and weigh in on the logical argument. I was referring to the perspective on the issue that only comes from having made the decision as a parent or having lived with it as a male. Not knowing you, I thought that was a point that needed to be made.

I can’t really agree with your apparent assertion that the absence of a “clear” advantage one way or the other objectively renders the decision to circumcise immoral. What is “clear” to you might not be “clear” to me. In my opinion, we aren’t speaking of objective truth here, neither in church teaching nor in natural law (hence my belief that the comparison of circumcision with issues like abortion is well over the top.) Rather it seems to be an issue of subjective clinical evidence and differing medical opinions that must be judged by the one making the decision.

I know this thread has gone on far longer than it should have, so I will shut up now. Peace.

 

[Ham1]

kamz:

Ham1,

I know that I don’t know all the answers, um, that would be up to God, I know that I can’t make a statement that this or that is morally right or wrong. But you just keep coming back with statemtns as though you had taken this up with some higher power and that your statements are blessed by God to be the truth. All we can do is wait until we get to heaven and then God will answers all things in his time. Until that time why can’t you just leave it alone? I’ll happily leave it alone when you can make a statement that says ( MAYBE this is immoral or wrong, in my opinion but I don’t speak for God just myself) but you just keep coming back with something or other.
Ham1 Maybe I’m wrong thinking that circing or not circing is up to my husband and I and someday when I get to heaven I’ll get set straight, ok. But until then I won’t judge you if you don’t judge me.
This is not the same as abortion, homosexuality, living in sin, things that are cut and dry written out for us in the bible, if I was debating you on those you could clearly tell me where in the bible I could find that those things God has addressed. But he has not said anything in the bible that says (you shall not circumcise you son for it is morally wrong, sinful, whatever, whatever, so LEAVE IT ALONE, PLEASE!!!

Kamz,

I am NOT trying to judge you. I just think that this is an interesting issue that should be explored and examined not just dismissed as amoral. God gave us intellect to discern morality and we are called to use it. We are not called to just sit back and think that anything that is not explicitly forbidden is therefore moral (by the way, I am NOT accusing you of this).

My point is exploring the morality of an act is a good and helpful thing. This is nothing personal. If circumcision was demonstrated to be immoral wouldn’t you want to know? Or if it was demonstrated to be clearly moral wouldn’t you want to know?

Discovering the truth is a good thing and shouldn’t hurt anyone’s feelings.

 

[Ham1]

OhioBob:

I’m trying to lighten up, HAM. I’ve been on Atkins for months. It’s working pretty well too. :dancing:

By credibility I wasn’t referring to the right to have an opinion and weigh in on the logical argument. I was referring to the perspective on the issue that only comes from having made the decision as a parent or having lived with it as a male. Not knowing you, I thought that was a point that needed to be made.

I can’t really agree with your apparent assertion that the absence of a “clear” advantage one way or the other objectively renders the decision to circumcise immoral. What is “clear” to you might not be “clear” to me. In my opinion, we aren’t speaking of objective truth here, neither in church teaching nor in natural law (hence my belief that the comparison of circumcision with issues like abortion is well over the top.) Rather it seems to be an issue of subjective clinical evidence and differing medical opinions that must be judged by the one making the decision.

I know this thread has gone on far longer than it should have, so I will shut up now. Peace.

My point is that IF there is no proven medical advantage then is it really moral to do it? I mean at that point one would be subjecting the infant to discomfort and a greater risk of infection, for what? I am of the view that it is not moral to cause discomfort/risk infection for no good reason.

As for the comparison to abortion, I never did that. I compared the reasoning being used by a poster to the reasoning used by those who seek to justify abortion.

Don’t shut up, I think we’re getting somewhere.

I admit that this whole thing is a bit of a balancing act. I am not trying to claim that the act is intrinsically evil, merely that without a stronger medical case (emphasis: there may be one, I am not an expert) the act is not really justified.

As far as credibility, I don’t really claim to have any… I will say that this thread has to win the award for most use of the word “penis.”

Have a great day!