Pope Calls Laity to Responsibility in the Church

[Brendan]

Clergy are without sin? Shoot… sign me up Holy Ghost! Get me ordained so I can be perfect in Christ!

Sheesh… is THIS the sort of ridiculous understanding the spirit of Vatican II has wrought?

Insidious… evil. Wrong.

Max, charity is called for.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

… you had said something like P.Benedict was trying to confuse others in the same way Jesus had done during his ministry (i recall this from memory, shall verify later i.e. tomorrow and confirm)…

No, that is not what I said. “Something like” isn’t a standard by which to accuse.

By responding as you have, you have asserted that it was (i) first declared that Christ purposely aimed to confuse the masses during his ministry and (ii) that Pope Benedict XVI aims to do the same in his role as Vicar of Christ.

Rather, the point was that he seems to have managed to do the same, and this has happened on more than a few occasions. (I hesitate to spell this out, but it is clear that is now necessary, as you have yet to read the original post, by your own admission.)

Do you deny, as is clear from Sacred Scripture and Tradition, that many were indeed confused by the teaching of Christ? The mere mention of eating His flesh and drinking His blood turned many away. Is that a false statement? Is that a false interpretation of the Scriptural account in this example?

Urge you to attempt to “verify” what someone has actually said in real time before jumping to condeming conclusions and pressing “Submit Reply”.

I’ll end it here, as this has now become a huge and regrettable distraction in this thread, which started with the Holy Father’s message …

 

[MarMax]

Max, charity is called for.

Mea culpa.

Wisedom: you are incorrect and have been led astray by poor catechesis. It would be uncharitable to let you subsist in this non-doctrine. #charity.

 

[Brendan]

But your hypothetical was that there were no people on earth other than the Bishops priests and deacons.

My point is that there would not be a Church because there would be no mission, which is why Christ established the in the first place.

Jim

And my point is that there IS a mission. The ongoing effort to encourage others to live the Gospel, and the offering of the Sacraments.

All of those would still be required if the world existed entirely of bishops, priests, deacons and those men who have recieved tonsure in those religious orders that retain Papal permission to do such (they are in the clerical state as well). Oh yea, and all the men in Minor Orders in the Eastern Churches, they are clerics too.

But either way, do you honestly believe that the Mission of the Church to a person ends when they recieve Holy Orders?

 

[Viola_Incognita]

Full text of the Pope’s message can be found here:

catholic.net/index.php?option=zenit&id=35420

Note that he is addressing an assembly on Catholic Action, not on the reform of the liturgy.

The second to the last paragraph:

“Your Catholic Action Associations boast a long and fruitful history, written by courageous witnesses of Christ and the Gospel, some of whom were recognized by the Church as blesseds and saints. In their train, you are called today to renew your commitment to walk along the path of holiness, by preserving an intense life of prayer, encouraging and respecting personal paths of faith and by esteeming the riches of each person, with the accompaniment of the priests who assist you and of leaders who are capable of educating you in ecclesial and social co-responsibility. May your lives be “transparent”; may they be guided by the Gospel and enlightened by an encounter with Christ, whom you love and follow without fear. Adopt and share the pastoral decisions of the dioceses and parishes, by promoting occasions to meet and sincere collaboration with the other elements of the ecclesial community, by building relationships of esteem and communion with priests, for the sake of a living, ministerial and missionary community. Cultivate authentic personal relationships with everyone, beginning with families, and offer your availability to participate at all levels of social, cultural and political life, by always setting your sights on the common good.”

May Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[wisedom]

Pax.

I have been finding this discussion very interesting, but I think it’s been going off on a tangent — which may be what Pope Benedict is trying to address.

The tangent is the interpretation of “responsibility in the Church” to mean “in the church building” such as we are reading in these discussions (arguments) regarding participation at Mass.

I think when we reduce “responsibility” to what we do in our one hour a week during Mass, we are missing the point.

The call of Christ is to our whole lives.

The Pope’s call is to unity, communion and witness.

If we are arguing with one another here, what sort of witness to unity and communion is this?

Right here is where we are called to witness.

May Christ’s peace be with you.

this is sage advice to render at this juncture, when laity and clergy are hurling whatever at each other!
i may add as one poster earlier, that it presupposes the laity would be endowed with the necessary authority co-extensive with or proportionate to their responsibility!

 

[ByzCathCantor]

i may add as one poster earlier, that it presupposes the laity would be endowed with the necessary authority co-extensive with or proportionate to their responsibility!

What “authority” do you seek, other than that which has already been granted us in Baptism through Christ our Lord?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

This is interesting as I was asked to be a sacrastian…and someone I know was sort of like “isn’t that the responsiblity of the priest?”…

Now I am not really comfortable being in that role…(I do not like to be in front of people) but I consider that the more background…behind the scences things that the laity can do…the more time it gives the priest to do those things that only the priest can.

For example…in settting up for Mass…my way of thinking is the more organized I can have everything…then the more our priest is able to pray, concentrate, and prepare for Mass…and the more comfortable he is celebrating Mass (without the lights not being on, or the fans not on, etc). For all I know, he could have been called to give last rites in the middle of the night.

Why do some people think priests should do everything? Why should they not be able to concentrate on the Mass, the sacraments, and prayer?

 

[wisedom]

Rather, the point was that he seems to have managed to do the same, and this has happened on more than a few occasions. (I hesitate to spell this out, but it is clear that is now necessary, as you have yet to read the original post, by your own admission.) Quote

But the point is that he is quite clear in what he says just like Jesus Christ…many people understood Jesus and as many understand Pope Benedict…
if you & your colleagues are confused, then it is your fault, it is beyond your understanding!

Like Solomon pl. pray to God for discernment or wisdom!

 

[ByzCathCantor]

But the point is that he is quite clear in what he says just like Jesus Christ…

Yes, that was precisely my point. How miraculous that you got that without reading what I had actually written, and in proper context.

if you & your colleagues are confused, then it is your fault, it is beyond your understanding!

Once again, how very charitable of you to say. I’m an idiot as well as a sinner, by your reckoning.

Like Solomon pl. pray to God for discernment or wisdom!

I shall! We all should!

 

[wisedom]

Clergy are without sin? Shoot… sign me up Holy Ghost! Get me ordained so I can be perfect in Christ!

Sheesh… is THIS the sort of ridiculous understanding the spirit of Vatican II has wrought?

Insidious… evil. Wrong.

that was a sarcastic remark!

if you don’t know, the pharisees and the teachers of the law (now the Church as understood by the clergy), prided themselves as Righteous when they were actually Self-Righteous, and they considered the others outside of themselves as sinners, and that’s why Jesus preached to the common folk to BEWARE OF THE YEAST OF THE PHARISEES…! HE said do whatever they tell you to do, but do not do what they do…
the sarcasm in my previous post clean bowled you? - this is just cricket!

 

[triumphguy]

that was a sarcastic remark!

if you don’t know, the pharisees and the teachers of the law (now the Church as understood by the clergy), prided themselves as Righteous when they were actually Self-Righteous, and they considered the others outside of themselves as sinners, and that’s why Jesus preached to the common folk to BEWARE OF THE YEAST OF THE PHARISEES…! HE said do whatever they tell you to do, but do not do what they do…
the sarcasm in my previous post clean bowled you? - this is just cricket!

Well they aren’t used to googlies round here

They play rounders.

 

[wisedom]

Yes, that was precisely my point. How miraculous that you got that without reading what I had actually written, and in proper context.

Once again, how very charitable of you to say. I’m an idiot as well as a sinner, by your reckoning.

I shall! We all should!

1. the Holy Spirit is with us…where 2 or 3 are gathered in my Name, there I AM…
2. i have always maintained that i am a sinner and my best prayer is : Oh Jesus forgive me my sins and pl. remember me in paradise - why don’t you try it as you confess that you are a sinner…
3. it is only prudent/wise for me to conclude with an apology for any offence that was not meant to you…no offence meant…

i have still not read your original, since the time here is 2.15 am and usually i would go to sleep around 12 midnight.

 

[MarMax]

that was a sarcastic remark!

if you don’t know, the pharisees and the teachers of the law (now the Church as understood by the clergy), prided themselves as Righteous when they were actually Self-Righteous, and they considered the others outside of themselves as sinners, and that’s why Jesus preached to the common folk to BEWARE OF THE YEAST OF THE PHARISEES…! HE said do whatever they tell you to do, but do not do what they do…
the sarcasm in my previous post clean bowled you? - this is just cricket!

I just realized you’re from India, which means you are not a native English speaker, which means your sarcasm went way by me because it was not written sarcastically but oddly and as if you were being serious.

In the future, I recommend the use of an emoticon to denote sarcasm; or, maybe a tag (#sarcasm) or otherwise , etc.

Cricket makes no sense to me; I prefer soccer. Or football as you might say, or do you say soccer?

Regards.

 

[triumphguy]

I just realized you’re from India, which means you are not a native English speaker, which means your sarcasm went way by me because it was not written sarcastically but oddly and as if you were being serious.

In the future, I recommend the use of an emoticon to denote sarcasm; or, maybe a tag (#sarcasm) or otherwise , etc.

Cricket makes no sense to me; I prefer soccer. Or football as you might say, or do you say soccer?

Regards.

There’s more English speakers in India than there are in the USA!

 

[ByzCathCantor]

no offence meant…

nor on my part, and I shall pray for the Lord to protect you as you sleep and for many years to come!

 

[JRKH]

Either you have a vocation to the priesthood, or to religious life or you don’t.

If a person doesn’t have such a vocation then they are called to live holy lives in the world.

We don’t have to playact at being religious or priests in order to live a full, challenging and holy life of prayer and mission.

In some ways it is the hardest vocation of all:

• To be a holy and faith-filled and faithful husband and father, or wife and mother, or single person.
• To live chastely whatever our married or relationship state
• To be Catholic in the world today.
• To be a Catholic teacher, or policeman, or chef, or soldier, or nurse, or doctor, or construction worker etc., etc.

We can make a huge difference wherever we are, and in doing so we participate with Christ in His mission of re-Creating the world.

This is a life of quiet heroism and service and leadership.

It means we need to make stands, take positions, make our voices heard, be seen and be counted. This also means we will be reviled and spat on, laughed at, sued, ignored, called wackos.

It means we need to properly inform our consciences, learn our faith, become familiar with orthodox theology.

This is all good!

Awesome!

Agree with the above…Awesome…

Peace
James

 

[MarMax]

There’s more English speakers in India than there are in the USA!

#Offtopic

So? Humor is cultural and the person is not American. I watch Bollywood films all the time and the humor is odd as can be. I don’t get it. Same with Mexican TV. It’s odd to me as an American.

 

[wisedom]

I just realized you’re from India, which means you are not a native English speaker, which means your sarcasm went way by me because it was not written sarcastically but oddly and as if you were being serious.

In the future, I recommend the use of an emoticon to denote sarcasm; or, maybe a tag (#sarcasm) or otherwise , etc.

Cricket makes no sense to me; I prefer soccer. Or football as you might say, or do you say soccer?

Regards.

When Jesus told the then Magisterium, i have not come to this earth to call respectable men who did not sin, to repentance, he was not being straight forward or ignorant…that was sarcasm at its very best, for Jesus did know that they were the worst sinners who believed they were without sin!

 

[triumphguy]

#Offtopic

So? Humor is cultural and the person is not American. I watch Bollywood films all the time and the humor is odd as can be. I don’t get it. Same with Mexican TV. It’s odd to me as an American.

It’s like English but with curry spices