Pres Trump’s brutal, anti life refugee polices

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“The rich” are not the ones paying for open borders. The poor and working class are. Not so very long ago, the building trades were a good source of employment for those who didn’t mind working hard, often in inclement weather, to support themselves and their families.

Now, most of that work is being done by illegal immigrant “crews” who are employed by labor exploiters of the same ethnicity. A lot of factory work is also being done by illegals, which allows “the rich” who own the plants to keep wages low.

Trump’s policies are aimed at improving the prospects of people in this country who want to work and make a decent living. Democrats don’t want that because they have sold out to the big corporations and want as many people dependent on government as possible.
 
vz71 said:
Is it your position that God’s Church is in error?
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I honestly don’t know enough about the Church or Catholic theology to give you an answer.

I know that God was clear, and I also know that Pope Francis has been routinely condemned on this board for his views on immigrants.

God commanded:

" The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”

"And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt. "

" “So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me,” says the LORD Almighty. "

“When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt. That is why I command you to do this.”

I mean, show me the ambiguity there. God’s words are unambiguous. It is people who add the exceptions - presumably to make us feel better about ignoring God’s commands.
 
vz71 said:
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billsherman:
God’s commands to care for the immigrant have no regard for American immigration law.
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God’s Church recognizes the need to control who does or does not enter.
Is it your position that God’s Church is in error?
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Correct.

Looking again at the link in Catholic doctrine in post 26:

article

The “second principle” says in part:
While individuals have the right to move in search of a safe and humane life, no country is bound to accept all those who wish to resettle there. By this principle the Church recognizes that most immigration is ultimately not something to celebrate. Ordinarily, people do not leave the security of their own land and culture just to seek adventure in a new place or merely to enhance their standard of living. Instead, they migrate because they are desperate and the opportunity for a safe and secure life does not exist in their own land. Immigrants and refugees endure many hardships and often long for the homes they left behind. As Americans we should cherish and celebrate the contributions of immigrants and their cultures; however, we should work to make it unnecessary for people to leave their own land.

Because there seems to be no end to poverty, war, and misery in the world, developed nations will continue to experience pressure from many peoples who desire to resettle in their lands. Catholic social teaching is realistic: While people have the right to move, no country has the duty to receive so many immigrants that its social and economic life are jeopardized.
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So, countries are not absolutely prohibited from excluding some immigrants; it’s just that decisions on the matter are to be made according to principles of justice.
 
pnewton said:
Wow! You think crime is caused by immigration?
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You can insinuate and infer things that just are not there. Humans, immigrants and citizens alike, commit crimes. My point was that if all of these immigrants were perfectly friendly, maybe with all other factors considered (they would assimilate, we don’t coddle them cradle to grave, etc.), we could work to bring them here and get them to be legal citizens. But we know that is not the case and many of them are not going to be friendly to us. So let’s just open the borders and let everyone in!
 
billsherman said:
God’s repeated command to love
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I particularly like it when I get the “you don’t love your neighbor” argument because it implies I don’t understand what it means to love. Love isn’t about just letting anyone do anything they want. That’s not love at all. In fact, it would be loving of me to shoot and kill and intrude trying to murder my family. It would be loving of me to be in a war to stop an enemy trying to commit genocide against an innocent people.
 
billsherman said:
Controlling borders does not need to apply to immigrants, we just choose to make it apply to immigrants.
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According to the church such control very much applies to immigrants.

It is obviously the task of Governments to regulate the migratory flows with full respect for the dignity of the persons and for their families’ needs, mindful of the requirements of the host societies. (Message, World Migration Day, JPII 2004)

The question of cultural integration is much debated these days, and it is not easy to specify in detail how best to guarantee, in a balanced and equitable way, the rights and duties of those who welcome and those who are welcomed…In the matter of controlling the influx of immigrants… (Message, World Day of Peace, JPII 2001)

Regulating immigration according to criteria of equity and balance… (Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church #298)

Illegal immigration should be prevented, but it is also essential to combat vigorously the criminal activities which exploit illegal immigrants. (Message, World Migration Day, JPII 1996)
 
“I mean, show me the ambiguity there”

OK
‘same law applies both to native-born and foreigner residing among you’ sounds like what we would call due process, or the same civil and criminal law applies to both citizens and non-citizens.

the next three do not seem to apply to those wishing to immigrate, but those already here. Defaults back to the USCCB instruction.
 
You only see this divergence because CAF is predominately home to American conservatives… many of the views found here do not necessarily reflect global Catholicism, nor global orthodoxy, nor even global conservatism.
 
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Thank you for the unbiased assessment!

Kindly demonstrate the violations of the catechism, if you would.
 
So then why don’t you advocate that people just walk into another country besides the US. See what that gets you and see how long that person will stay in jail before they either receive trial for breaking that nation’s sovereign laws and get deported.
 
godisgood77 said:
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CatholicSooner:
Can you expound on what is anti life and brutal and which policies contribute to this?
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Did you read the article? Were you not shocked?

Here is one obvious call out from the CCC…

2241: “The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.”
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So no you can’t expound?

Did you read the other parts of the CCC that others have posted?
 
pnewton said:
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JoeFreedom:
Right. Funny how the open borders crowd locks their doors shut each night for fear of crime.

Open borders they shout!
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Wow! You think crime is caused by immigration? I live in an immigrant rich environment. Not one home invasion here has been by immigrants, legal or illegal. How is this statement not rooted in bigotry?

People lock doors means they are afraid of immigrants? Think for a moment how such an assumption is possible without believing that immigrants are the cause of dangerous crime. I can’t fathom the statement can mean anything else.
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definition of missing the point right here
 
Death penalty is a big and obvious one. Stewardship of the earth (what the Holy Father refers to as “ecological sins”) would be another.
I see open defiance of the Magisterium routinely on these topics here…
I spoke in very general terms in the earlier post. When it comes to borders and refugees etc, we do have a solemn grave obligation as Catholics to care for migrants… but the precise application of that teaching is certainly open to debate.
 
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JoeFreedom said:
You can insinuate and infer things that just are not there.
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You said it, not me.
JoeFreedom said:
Right. Funny how the open borders crowd locks their doors shut each night for fear of crime.
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I am not saying your are bigoted. However, if you make statements like that, there may be reasons some call you that.

Let me change your statement as a demonstration. “It’s funny how people who think blacks are safe still lock their doors at night for fear of crime.”

Statistically, immigrants are not more dangerous and do not increase the crime rate. That is fear-mongering propaganda. This sort of demonization has been used by other leaders before this president to make other hated groups seem evil. It is a shame to see so many believe it.
 
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CatholicSooner said:
So no you can’t expound?
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But I did… Do you truly believe that these policies reflect that we are doing all that is possible to welcome the foreigner in search of security? I have no doubt that we aren’t and my opinion is that these policies are unnecessarily cruel and are instead being used a deterrent . Unfortunately. this impacts some of the most vulnerable disproportionately
JoeFreedom said:
then why don’t you advocate that people just walk into another country besides the US.
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JoeFreedom said:
So let’s just open the borders and let everyone in!
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I think these two comments are a distortion… personally, I haven’t encountered anyone of these so called ‘open borders’ advocates… Most people are interested in sensible laws and efficient systems… not close the door and only allow people from 'non-expletive hole ’ countries… That seems like a problem to me.
 
Here, I think, is what has been said. Catholics have always and everywhere been responsible for the care of the earth. This latest reiteration of a centuries old teaching does rather strike me as inspired by current events in the secular world. And despite the fact that the science is contested, it does seem to tilt toward the side of hysteria.

The introduction of the letter lists more points by way of justification than it does to level-headed reasoning, a call to faith, prayer and good care of the environment. In doing so, it seems to me to fall in with the hysteria crowd.

And this is quite a conundrum, since the warming crowd unfailingly sees man’s presence on the earth as the problem and population control as the solution. The alternate solution, in this world, is one of the forms of authoritarian collectivism which the Church opposes.

I hope that the Church is not painting herself into a corner here.
 
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Odilon said:
The Holy Family was endangered by their own King, thus they fled to Egypt. When they got there they did not go on the dole of the Egyptian government but instead survived on their own labors.
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That is all today’s refugees want to do too.
 
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