Seventh Day Adventists

[reggie]

First let me say that ALL interpretation of Scripture is someone’s understanding. That is true whether you choose to follow the understanding of a person, an organized church or just your own. So I am never impressed when that arguement is used as there are as many “understandings” of Scripture as there are churches etc… I asked someone to explain where in the OT is says that the Sabbath must be a Saturday. Your reasoning by the SDA is almost laughable. They point to long standing practice and pattern to justify their “understanding” of when Sabbath must be observed. That sounds a lot like “tradition” and as my 13 yr old would say “That’s rich!” One of the fiercest complaints against the Church is the practices of tradition. The Lord’s Day being the same as the Saturday Sabbath is too easily disproved. Acts quite clearly states that on the first day, The Lord’s Day, the Apostles met, broke bread and gathered donations for the community. That sounds an awful like Mass to me. Also, that Paul preached on Saturday/Sabbath is not a consequential arguement since we know that the Apostles went to synagogue on Sabbath and there spoke of Jesus and the new covenant. Where else would they go to evangelize Jews but their temple? Can anyone answer my original question with a Biblical verse stating that the Sabbath is not just the day put aside for rest and worship but must be Saturday?

 

[flameburns623]

Reggie:

Can anyone answer my original question with a Biblical verse stating that the Sabbath is not just the day put aside for rest and worship but must be Saturday?

Yes. But you’ve got to get away from paraphrases and use a word-for-word translation. Even your Catholic NAB won’t do–it’s a pseudo-translation AKA a dynamic-equivialency ‘translation’. From the New American Standard Bible, admittedly a Protestant translation but the best literal translation available apart from the KJV:

Genesis 2:2-3: "And by the seventh day, God completed His work which He had done; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made."

Exodus 20: 8-11: “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.”

Deuteronomy 5: 12-14: “Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. Six days shall you labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath day of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant your your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. And you shall rmember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day.”

Always bear in mind when using paraphrases–and a self-professed ‘translation’ which does not employ strict literal principles for translating is no better than a paraphrase when discussing theological issues–that theological biases and presuppositions always creep in. Since few of us are fluent enough to exegete Scripture directly from the original Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek, one needs a sturdy, well-established, and highly conservative literal translation available. Despite it’s flaws (it is not translated directly from original languages but from the Latin Vulgate, and ‘compared to’ the original languages) the best translation a Roman Catholic has available for scripture study is the Douay-Rheims translation. The NAB is the most atrocious translation this side of the Watchtower’s ‘New World Translation’ that I am aware of. And probably had more heretics on the translating committee than the NWT. (Not a difficult taks to accomplish since the NWT is widely believed to be the work primarily of one man).

 

[reggie]

Look, I get all the translation problems and such, my question isn’t if God set aside the seventh day, made it holy or anything of that nature. My point is that there is nothing that says that SATURDAY must be that seventh day. In other words, God did not name the days and there have been many different calendars and names of days since the beginning of recorded time. We don’t know for a fact which day is actually which day. The OT is not specific of the name of the day, it was the tradition of the Jews and that is fine for them. We as Christians though are not bound to the Judaic Law and while it was some time before the Apostles completely left the old ways behind, they did eventually do it and the new tradition became the Sunday “Lord’s Day” Sabbath. Catholics did not change the Sabbath Law or abolish it. We have a new covenant which led to Christian Tradition which came from the roots of the Apostle’s Jewish traditions. I only emphasize that Saturday Sabbath is the Jewish tradition and though the Sabbath is still to be observed, Sunday as the Sabbath does not contradict the Commandment nor equal changing God’s Law.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

shannin:

Thanks for your reply. I am hurt and concerned that the 7th Day Adventist on 3ABN preach such hateful messages directed at the Pope and all Catholics. I started watching that network, not realizing what it was, because they do have some excellent cooking shows. After I heard a few of those horrible sermons that are given against MY FAITH, I ofcourse, don’t turn it on anymore.

Unfortunately, Christian unpleasantness to other Christians seems to know no barriers.​

If SDAs don’t regard Catholics as Christians, then that has to be addressed, and understood. ##

 

[Des]

reggie:

Look, I get all the translation problems and such, my question isn’t if God set aside the seventh day, made it holy or anything of that nature. My point is that there is nothing that says that SATURDAY must be that seventh day. In other words, God did not name the days and there have been many different calendars and names of days since the beginning of recorded time. We don’t know for a fact which day is actually which day. The OT is not specific of the name of the day, it was the tradition of the Jews and that is fine for them. We as Christians though are not bound to the Judaic Law and while it was some time before the Apostles completely left the old ways behind, they did eventually do it and the new tradition became the Sunday “Lord’s Day” Sabbath. Catholics did not change the Sabbath Law or abolish it. We have a new covenant which led to Christian Tradition which came from the roots of the Apostle’s Jewish traditions. I only emphasize that Saturday Sabbath is the Jewish tradition and though the Sabbath is still to be observed, Sunday as the Sabbath does not contradict the Commandment nor equal changing God’s Law.

That is what I said to an adventist once. The saturday as we know it, was implemented by Jewish Tradition. They made that day the Sabbath, the day of which they would rest on a seventh day cycle. Sunday is given more meaning for us as Catholics. It signifies the Ressurection of our Lord and a new creation. We are still keeping with worshiping once a week as we celebrate the Holy Eucharist, the Unbloody Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

this is probably a 101 question, but why do we have 2 days off a week, Sat and Sun? all that stuff about day of rest sounds like Saturday to me, yet all that breaking the bread and stuff sounds like Sunday. (i know i probably have a translation error or misunderstanding here)

also i didnt see it on this thread, but someone at school told me the days of the week were named after pagan gods, like Thursday is Thor’s Day.

 

[flameburns623]

Catholic Dude:

this is probably a 101 question, but why do we have 2 days off a week, Sat and Sun? all that stuff about day of rest sounds like Saturday to me, yet all that breaking the bread and stuff sounds like Sunday. (i know i probably have a translation error or misunderstanding here)

also i didnt see it on this thread, but someone at school told me the days of the week were named after pagan gods, like Thursday is Thor’s Day.

We get two days off because the labor movement successfully negotiated the 40-hour week and 8-hour day into common practice. This means that in most jobs, one is in ‘overtime’ after working five consecutive days, and in former days employers avoided paying overtime. Saturdays and Sundays were chosen as the ‘days off’ because Christians formerly insisted on Sundays off for Christian worship, and five working days from Sunday means the 40-hour week ends on Friday. It helped that Saturday is also the day of worship for what was once the second-biggest religious group in America but I don’t think it was a primary consideration.

Modern days of the week have names assigned them from pagan worship. Saturday is ‘Saturn’s Day’. But Adventists don’t speak of the seventh day of the week as ‘Saturday’ but as ‘Sabbath’.

Reggie:

My point is that there is nothing that says that SATURDAY must be that seventh day. In other words, God did not name the days and there have been many different calendars and names of days since the beginning of recorded time. We don’t know for a fact which day is actually which day. The OT is not specific of the name of the day, it was the tradition of the Jews and that is fine for them. We as Christians though are not bound to the Judaic Law and while it was some time before the Apostles completely left the old ways behind, they did eventually do it and the new tradition became the Sunday “Lord’s Day” Sabbath. Catholics did not change the Sabbath Law or abolish it. We have a new covenant which led to Christian Tradition which came from the roots of the Apostle’s Jewish traditions. I only emphasize that Saturday Sabbath is the Jewish tradition and though the Sabbath is still to be observed,

You’re apparently not very interested in this subject since I have pointed out at least twice in my prior posts that Adventist apologists have answered your objections time and time again. You may not agree with or accept their answers but they have not made their choices ignorantly or unthinkingly. The Sabbath is said within Scripture to be ‘eternal’ (Exodus 31:16-17, cf Romans 9:6-8) and it is clearly spoken of as being observed during the Millenium (Isaiah 66: 22-23). It is not clear that the Apostles or early Christians observed any ‘holy day’ at all except the seventh-day Sabbath which a careful reading of the book of Acts will show was observed rather fastidiously by Peter and Paul. There are 89 recorded observances of Sabbath in the New Testament and only 1 New Testament mention of a worship service which occurred on the eve of ‘the first day of the week’–and THAT instance seems actually to have occurred on the evening of Sabbath, which is when the Sabbath ended and the ‘first day of the week’ commenced in Bible times. The ‘Lord’s Day’, attest the Adventists, was never any day OTHER THAN the Sabbath until well after the death of the Apostles, and they will happily provide evidence and argumentation for the claim.

Which evidence is of no apparent interest to you since you will not take note of it even when alluded to within the confines of a single thread. I still think there are some ‘trump’ arguments which suggest Christians ought not to judge one another on the issue of when to worship or not to worship but I do at least take account of the part of the issue which is the Adventist’s strong suit.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

reggie:

First let me say that ALL interpretation of Scripture is someone’s understanding.

No. That’s very wrong. The Holy Spirit guides the Church under the charism of infallibility explicitly given to Peter by Jesus. That’s not a catholic thing, that’s Christ who instituted His Church. Is it any wonder that men left to their own intellect or others, well intentioned or not, cannot even figure out which day to worship?

What shepherd would leave his flock to man’s fallen intellect? Only a bad shepherd.

Christ is the Good Shepherd, not a bad shepherd: He left us a church where the gates of hell would not prevail: the Catholic church.

peace

This thread is the clearest proof for the authenticity of the Catholic church that I have seen in a long time. Praise and thanks Jesus!

 

[reggie]

All interpretations of Scripture are someone’s understanding. Since most Christians do not have the knowledge of the languages of the time when Scripture was written, we must depend on the translations of those who do. I am a Catholic and firmly believe that the Church is that of Jesus and that the Holy Spirit guides and protects the Catholic Church’s understanding of Scripture. So in my previous post, I was not implicating that all interpretations are correct, merely that interpretation of Scripture comes to us through humans. Once again, I do believe that the Church is the keeper of revelation and protected by the Holy Spirit to teach only what is true and of eternal value to the faithful. As to the Sabbath. I just feel that the SDA uses the Scripture to attack the Church in order to buttress themselves as the “true” church. My aim is not to constantly split hairs over specific passages. I merely aim to show that the Saturday Sabbath is a tradition of Jewish worship practices and not written in stone(pun not intended) as being one particular day. It is the principle of Sabbath, not which specific day that I am discussing. The SDA feels they have a valid arguement and that is fine, however, Saturday is not specifically mentioned as the Sabbath. Our tradition is a Sunday Sabbath, I am sure that the early Church didn’t just arbitrarily choose that day. There must have been strong reasons for it, afterall, as Jews, they must have been concerned about the ten commandments. I am interested in hearing all the counter points, even when I don’t agree, as they make me look more closely to what the Church teaches and usually strengthens my own faith. The SDA can make their beliefs sound good enough to tickle the ears but I hold fast to what has been handed down to me through the Church for two thousand years.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

reggie:

The SDA can make their beliefs sound good enough to tickle the ears but I hold fast to what has been handed down to me through the Church for two thousand years.

hey that rhymes!

 

[sparkle]

shannin:

Greetings,
My name is Shannon and I just joined. I’d like to know if any of you have ever watched 3ABN, a 7th Day Adventist network? They say the most hateful things about the Catholic faith. Any feedback from you will be appreciated.
Blessings,
Shannon

NO. Never seen it. BUT, I know some SDA, and they’re wonderful, Christ-loving people, never saying a word against the RCC. Hummmmmm, I wonder if their anti-Catholicism perhaps was something that primarily occurred a long time ago???

Then again, hubby found some little phamplet put out by the SDA which slammed the RCC to yin-yang. So who knows? If you’re really interested, why not call your local SDA church and find out their stance towards Catholics.

 

[Pisio]

sparkle:

NO. Never seen it. BUT, I know some SDA, and they’re wonderful, Christ-loving people, never saying a word against the RCC. Hummmmmm, I wonder if their anti-Catholicism perhaps was something that primarily occurred a long time ago???

I am married to a very loving woman who just happens to be SDA. I can tell you from experience with her family that there is a deep seeded fear of the Catholic Church. This fear, in the case of her parents, has led to out right hatred :yup: .

It has gotten to the point with some SDA in her home town that they do not want to show a cross anywhere because they are afraid people might assume they are Catholic.

Christians hiding the cross… Hmmm… another whole subject perhaps?

Anyway… yes they are very loving God fearing people…

In Christ,
Pisio

 

[Egg4christ]

Can’t we agree that everyone has their points? I mean, i recently did some study into SDA(I’m a non denominational). To be honest, they have some really EXCELLENT doctrine.They really preach a radical life, centered around a real relationship with Jesus Christ. They have some ideas that i don’t agree with ( Some issues on death, and Ellen G White), but nothing big enough to seperate me from them. What binds me to them is bigger than what seperates.
And like any church, any idea, there is sometimes a problem in the execution. I’ve seen some SDA that really haven’t been taught the Gospel too well(not the 4 books, the concept of good news). I know some that over emphasize the sabbath, and believe that those who don’t aren’t of the church of God. But that’s no reason to attack their entire religion. EVERYONE experiences problems in the execution, at some point. No church is filled completely with extreme believers.
And, to top it off, in some ways they have a leg up on me. They REALLY celebrate the sabbath, regadless of which day they celebrate. I mean, i go to church, but i definitely haven’t ever given the entire day to God. I know, Every day is spent walking with Christ, but who’s ever tried really putting everything aside to just be with your God for a day? I haven’t. Sunday is a homework day for me. I think changing my sabbath habits is something God wants for me.
Just go easy on the genralizations.

 

[sparkle]

Someone mentioned why don’t SDA eat meat?

Well they highly believe that their bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit which they are indeed, and they strive to keep it healthy, i.e., no red meat, no milk (soy milk), no alcohol, (depressant) and no coffee (stimulant). Did you know when surveyed the different religions, the SDA had the FEWEST incidences of heart disease and cancer??? So, there must be something to this afterall.

I’m not willing to go there, I just believe in moderation in all things, but I admire them for these strong beliefs for sure. They seem to be healthier because of it. Notice any Adventist Hospitals around-----they serve the best food in their cafeterias—all veggie but delicious. And of course read the news, red meat and dairy products ARE detrimental to health. This is a given. So they have something right. As far as their misunderstanding of Catholicism, well, that’s a different story. Most I think are simply uneducated about the Truth, or SDA has been in their family and they’ve never questioned it. WE can educate those we know!!!

 

[reggie]

It seems to me that most Protentant denoms are overly concerned with how we live our life on earth, but not with their sights on how that will affect our eternal life. In other words, their focus is on how to have the best life here and now. Some say they can gaurrntee you prosperity, others happiness and contentment, some a healthy body etc… The Catholic Church has always focused on our life with God after the flesh of this world is once again the dust from which it came. I am not saying that we shouldn’t take care of ourselves or work to have material things, but the Church has rarely involved itself in this life other than to teach how to live as Christians. It’s main goal is to lead us to heaven and eternity with Jesus. We as individuals with free will choose not only our spiritual direction, but our physical one as well. I am the only one responsible for my physical well being, but the Church and its teachers are as responsible for my soul as me.

 

[vern_humphrey]

reggie:

It seems to me that most Protentant denoms are overly concerned with how we live our life on earth, but not with their sights on how that will affect our eternal life.

When dealing with some of these folk, I’m often reminded of the Roarsch (ink blot) test. The “ink blot” is really watercolor, with the paper folded to produce a blot that is more or less symetrical about the vertical axis. The person taking the test is asked;

"Do you see:

a. A butterfly.
b. A bat.
c. A vagina
d. A clown"

Any of the first three are acceptable (choice c is there to keep you confused and off-balance.) The blot looks kind of like all of the above.

BUT if you take a magnifying glass and carefully examine the edges of the blot, you will find a tiny clown head. Schizophrenics tend to see the tiny clown, and miss the rest of the blot. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[emarc]

hi to all - my sister was married to a SDA who was a wonderful guy. he went to catholic church and heard mass with my sister each sunday with no complaint in addition to worshipping by himself in his church on the sabbath. it took 25 years before my sister left the church http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon8.gif to join him as SDA. the kinfolks noticed a big change in her. she was timid before but now she carried herself with big pride in her new faith. she got involved in her new church even joining the choir. her change in faith seemed to be working very positively in her life. my only objection was when she started questioning our catholic faith because we “worship” Mary, the saints’ statues, worshipping on sundays, etc. obviously she forgot all the catholic teachings taught her before she left the church. one time i talked to her and cautioned her to be discrete and respect each other’s faith because all of us believe in Jesus Christ. because we live about 300 miles apart and seldom see each other, i didn’t want to upset her at that time. i would not want a wedge between our http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif close family relationship.
what would you dohttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon5.gif

 

[Des]

emarc:

hi to all - my sister was married to a SDA who was a wonderful guy. he went to catholic church and heard mass with my sister each sunday with no complaint in addition to worshipping by himself in his church on the sabbath.

A wonderful guy? It sounds as if he only went to Mass to learn ways of how to slowly convince your sister to come to his church. Obviously more was going on there than meets the eye. Since she never went to his church while he was going to hers, i’m guessing he was slowly feeding his heretical doctrines to her. It’s ashame she never knew how to defend her Catholic faith.

 

[emarc]

Des:

A wonderful guy? It sounds as if he only went to Mass to learn ways of how to slowly convince your sister to come to his church. Obviously more was going on there than meets the eye. Since she never went to his church while he was going to hers, i’m guessing he was slowly feeding his heretical doctrines to her. It’s ashame she never knew how to defend her Catholic faith.

yes des, he’s a wonderful guy having known him for more than 25 years. he & my sis rent out their 2nd house to low income family at a very low rent w/c if they wanted they could get twice more money, never abuses anyone, two of their 3 sons graduated from college and the 3rd in college, took care of his ailing mother, helped look after his aging father-in-law, never seen touch alcoholic beverage at any time, very respectful towards his in-laws and many wonderful display of his character that he could easily put others, including some catholics, to shame. i think my sis coverted on her own volition because she felt guilty to her husband who had been patient with her. oftentimes a person kindness could stir someone’s heart into action and this is what i think happened to her.
God bless.

 

[Drew]

emarc:

…my only objection was when she started questioning our catholic faith because we “worship” Mary, the saints’ statues…

God:

Exodus 20:
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.