Seventh Day Adventists

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Bulldog04:
As an SDA it was interesting to see opions from Catholics, Adventists and others on the “relationship” between the two churches. I myself have watched very little of Three Angels Broadcasting Network but I was surprised that they would openly attack the Catholic church. I must say though that the Catholic Answers article on Adventists is alot more harsh then the SDA website’s topic on the Catholic Church.

:cool:
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Bulldog you say that the CA site is much more harsh to SDAs than SDAs are to Catholics. I say nonsense.

Where does CA call the SDA organisation the “great whore of Babylon”? Where does the CA site call the President or leader of General Conference “the beast”?

SDAs routinely call the Catholic Church and Pope both of these names. They lie when they say the Catholic Church “has thought to omit one of the ten commandments”.

They lie when they claim the Papal triple tiara is inscribed with the words “Vicar of the Son of God” which according to SDA numerology equals to 666. (Are you aware that no Pope since John XXIIrd has even worn the triple tiara?)

Get real, SDA hatred for, and lies about the Catholic Church is uneqauled.
 
First of all, the entire reformation was based on the idea that the CC was the beast described in Revelation. So it should not be unique to SDA. Second, lies? How about the donation of Constantine? How long was that lie perpetuated by the CC? And you cannot call the “vicar of the son of God” story a lie because nobody knows. In fact, most evidence points to it being true.

Child of light…how is the Sabbath COMMANDMENT a man-made law?

Best,
Travis
 
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twagler:
First of all, the entire reformation was based on the idea that the CC was the beast described in Revelation. So it should not be unique to SDA. Second, lies? How about the donation of Constantine? How long was that lie perpetuated by the CC? And you cannot call the “vicar of the son of God” story a lie because nobody knows. In fact, most evidence points to it being true.

Child of light…how is the Sabbath COMMANDMENT a man-made law?

Best,
Travis
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Welcome SDA Travis. No the entire reformation was not based on the idea that the Catholic church is the “beast”. There is no Protestant denomination that teaches it either, just semi-Christian cults like the SDAs, Jehovah Witnesses, and the Mormons.

I was reffering to lies told about Catholics by SDAs, how does the story of the “donation of Constantine” have anything at all to do with that?

All educated people know that the RCC has never called the Pope the “vicar of the Son of God”, the proper title is Vicar of Christ", NO evidence points to that lie being true.

The fourth commandment about the JEWISH sabbath, is no longer valid for Christians. The SDAs don’t see any difference between Christians and Jews, they even practice the Jewish Kosher laws about “clean and unclean” meats. Catholics OTOH do not think that Christians are Jews, we do not beleive that Christians are “saved” by legalistic obidience to the Old Testament JEWISH laws.

AND… you have missed the entire point in my post. I was saying that the SDAs, with their lies about Catholic faith and practice go far beyond any criticism of SDAs by Catholics. I stand by that, unless you can find equal lies told by Catholics about the SDAs.

Where do we call the SDA religion the “great whore of Babylon”, where do we lie and accuse the SDAs of “dropping on of the Ten Commandments”?
 
First of all, you assume I am SDA. I am not; I am just not blind to the fact that the CC has abandoned the true Sabbath. And, YES, the entire reformation was based on the CC being the beast. I will agree with you that not all Protestants STILL teach this.

As for proof of vicar of son of God. Check this out. I don’t expect you to read the beginning, just scroll down to the relevant section.

aloha.net/~mikesch/666.htm

Who says all of those are lies about the CC? In regard to the ten commandments…If the CC had not messed with the order of the commandments given in Exodus, these beliefs would not have come to be.

What about the accusation that the CC abolished the Saturday Sabbath? Lie? Or that Constantine made it law to observe the “venerable day of the sun” in 321 and made no mention of God? More important, this law said that you could NOT observe Saturday. Another lie?

What am I supposed to gather when the people who forged the donation of Constantine used “vicar of the son of God” in it? And then this donation was claimed by many Popes as justification of their power.

Of course the rebuttal on the Sabbath topic will be…The entire early church met on Sunday. Wrong. Another wonderful website.
sabbathtruth.com/history/sabbath_history1.asp

Read with an open mind.

Travis
 
Travis, I am a Christian, not a Jew. Frankly I am not interested in the Jewish sabbath, or the Jewish holidays pushed on that very wierd web-site.

I was wrong about your being an SDA, but your arguments are very simular if not identical to those made by SDAs, Constantine “changing the JEWISH sabbath to Sunday”, the CC “dropping” one of the Ten Commandments.

Perhaps you are a member of one of the hundreds of sub-cults that split from the Armstrong World-Wide “church of God” cult when they reformed.

I don’t care. Frankly I am a Catholic CHRISTIAN, I have no interest is any of the hybrid part Christian, part Jewish CULTS at all.

So you can save your breath or fingers, I won’t be responding to you further.
Find a nice semi Christian, semi Jewish cult site to post in.

BTW, you still did not respond to my posting, you just wipe that aside and ignore it.

See ya around, but not here.
 
Cult.

And I did respond…they aren’t all lies. Semi-Christian sounds like a cult I know. One that mixes the tradition of men with the Word of God.
"Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. " Colossians 2:8
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		  			"For the time will              come when **they will not endure sound doctrine**, but **             according to their own desires**, because they have itching ears,              they will heap up for themselves teachers; and **they will turn              their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables**.  			But you be watchful in all things..."  2              Timothy 4:2-5
 
Travis…honey…someone once told me that “no one can quote the bible better than the devil himself” Seems to me that you do a darn good job.
 
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Katie1723:
Travis…honey…someone once told me that “no one can quote the bible better than the devil himself” Seems to me that you do a darn good job.
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WOW. Although, I guess that is a pretty clean and efficient way of dealing with things.
 
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Katholikos:
One Adventist group has been known to take out expensive, full-page ads in newspapers around the U.S., shouting that the CC is the Whore of Babylon, the Pope is the anti-Christ, and unless we Catholics repent our of godless ways, we’re doomed to hell. I was furious with the Arizona Republic for printing such an ad – the revenue was more important than respecting their Catholic subscribers, of course. (I unsubscribed.)
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These SDA’s must have gone stark raving mad these last weeks watching their T.V’s. Billions of people watching the apostolic Church started by Jesus, built on Peter, showing the respect due Peter’s successor. And just as in Acts of the Apostles, Peter calls for the replacement of Judas after he died, so we see the replacement of JPII by Benedict XVI in the line of St Peter… And Fox news I thought did a fantastic job in their coverage and instruction about what they were reporting on… It was like a mass catechetical lesson for 2 solid weeks, 24/7, televised all around the world, in everyone’s own language. You can’t buy that kind of coverage or evangelization… FANTASTIC!!!.
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Katholikos:
They’d never allow such an ad about Jews or other Christians to be published in their paper. But Catholicism is the last “respectable” prejudice left in America. You can say, or write, or speak any evil thing you wish against the CC, and nobody cares. The Church is fair game.
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No body ever REALLY gets away with anything. As Our Lord says, we will be judged on what we do and say.
 
steve b:
These SDA’s must have gone stark raving mad these last weeks watching their T.V’s. Billions of people watching the apostolic Church started by Jesus, built on Peter, showing the respect due Peter’s successor. And just as in Acts of the Apostles, Peter calls for the replacement of Judas after he died, so we see the replacement of JPII by Benedict XVI in the line of St Peter… And Fox news I thought did a fantastic job in their coverage and instruction about what they were reporting on… It was like a mass catechetical lesson for 2 solid weeks, 24/7, televised all around the world, in everyone’s own language. You can’t buy that kind of coverage or evangelization… FANTASTIC!!!.

No body ever REALLY gets away with anything. As Our Lord says, we will be judged on what we do and say.
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My partner is SDA, but thankfully he was a real sweetheart these past weeks. ANd not part of the lunatic fringe we see here sometimes
Kathy
 
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twagler:
First of all, you assume I am SDA. I am not;
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Why then, did you put in your biography that your religion is “seventh day?” Seventh day what?
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twagler:
I am just not blind to the fact that the CC has abandoned the true Sabbath. And, YES, the entire reformation was based on the CC being the beast. I will agree with you that not all Protestants STILL teach this.
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  1. The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.
    [Mk 2:27]
  2. Jesus Christ is Lord over the sabbath.[Mt 12:8] That’s why we celebrate the Lords day on Sunday, not Saturday.
  3. SDA is a man made religion. Who in their right mind would want to follow a man made religion?
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twagler:
What am I supposed to gather when the people who forged the donation of Constantine
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I’m glad you recognize that the document you refer to is a well known forgery.
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twagler:
used “vicar of the son of God” in it? And then this donation was claimed by many Popes as justification of their power.
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  1. That title isn’t wrong theologically, it’s just not an official title of the pope.
  2. Constantine had zero influence with papal authority and power. Anyone slightly informed with scripture and the Early Church Fathers writings, knows better than to say such stuff.
  3. Papal authority comes from Jesus, who established His Church on Peter, established Peter’s office as head of the Church, and gave the keys of His kingdom to Peter and his successors.
    [Mt 16:18…]
 
I believe in the seventh day sabbath because the Bible gives no hint that I shouldn’t. SDAs believe in unclean meat, even though the Bible makes it clear that all meat is clean. Therefore I am not SDA, even though I do agree with much of their platform.

The sabbath was made for man…not made for man to change it. Why, then, was Sunday not observed immediately after the resurrection? Why the gradual change over hundreds of years?

Constantine may not have had papal power, but he certainly tried to end the observance of Saturday. I am sure the church told him that this was not just.
 
actually, the fact that Christ rose on the first day of the week(John 20:1++), i think, may be the reason why church tradition chose sunday as the holy day. in addition, as the hebrew calendar is different. as long as there is a day of God, a day of rest suffices.

dietary laws. Acts 15:13

papacy of peter. Acts 15:7

divinity of Christ. John 8:58 , Exodus3:14

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Drew:
lol Vern 🙂

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is it that Catholics believe is the mark of the beast?

We believe you will either have God’s mark or the mark of the beast. You know the verse of having the mark in your arm or forehead. We believe if you observe the ten commands you will have God’s mark.

Most churchs agree on 9 of the commandments, but not on the 3rd (or 4th depending on which version of the Bible you use). There’s no place in the Bible where God changed the Sabbath from the 7th day (Saturday) to the 1st (Sunday). The only explanation offered for the change is that the church changed God’s law because it had the power to do so. The church reasoned it had the power because if it didn’t then how could it have changed God’s law.

pathlights.com/theselastdays/tracts/tract_22h.htm

So if the mark is whether you follow the Ten Commandments or not, then we’re all going to have to make a decision on all of them, including the Sabbath.

What do you believe the mark of the beast is?
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You said it JJ. And what does the Bible say about following the tradition of men?
 
God'slil'girl:
I don’t really…consider those commandments (the “OT” commandments) “commandments”…kinda confusing??:whacky:…
‘cause God didn’t, you know, write them on the tablets of stone like he did the ones in Exodus (20). I’ve heard of them, “Mozaic Laws”, or somthin’, but are those Jewish?..and I’m not Jewish. SDAs and Jews might have somethings in common, but a lot of things they don’t. SDAs are, you know, Christians.

And you said the apostles changed Saturday to Sunday for the day of rest…you know of any biblical text to confirm that???
Ok, here’s how I see it. I believe in the whole bible. And God gave us the ten commandments, right?? And the commandment on the Sabbath says this,
REMEMBER the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shall thou labour, and do all thy work, but the SEVENTH day is (and in my bible “is” is italicized) the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the Lord made the heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. (KJV bible) And in the New Testament Jesus said if you love :love: me keep my commandments, did He not? And also in Ecclesiastes 3:14 it says,
And I know this, that whatever God does is final-nothing can be added or taken from it…In other words God does NOT change.
And I don’t know any texts in the Bible that say that Saturday Sabbath was changed to Sunday. If you do, plz give me a text…
I think that to disobey or change any of God’s commandments is a slap in His face.:tsktsk:

And what (or who) do you think the “mark of the beast” is???
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i don;t want to tweak any tweeters, (actually, i do), but i doubt very much that adventists are Christian. to be a Christian it is necessary to believe in the Divinity of Christ. that Jesus is actually God! the adventists i have known would choke on that thought. they follow all the Jewish dietary laws. therefore they can’t eat cheeseburgers. “you shall not boil a kid in it’s mothers milk”

actually adventists are Jews, they just don’t want the label. at least the ones i have known, to qualify the statement. somewhat.

why are you here, anyway???
 
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twagler:
You said it JJ. And what does the Bible say about following the tradition of men?
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But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit, and faith of the truth: 14 Whereunto also he hath called you by our gospel, unto the purchasing of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. (DRC) IITHES2:13

Joao
 
Jaoa,

Do you think this is speaking about traditions of MEN? No way. It is talking about the Bible and the teaching of that Bible by the epistles. And what would one of these traditions have been? Hmmm…observance of Saturday as the sabbath?
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         "**Beware lest             anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit**,             according to the tradition of men, according to the basic             principles of the world, and not according to Christ. "              Colossians 2:8 

                     "For the time will              come when **they will not endure sound doctrine**, but **             according to their own desires**, because they have itching ears,              they will heap up for themselves teachers; and **they will turn              their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables**. But you be watchful in all things..."  2              Timothy 4:2-5
I find the verses leading up to II Thes 2:13 very interesting.
It is reinforcing the fact that someone will try to change times and laws. And in verse 13 Paul reminds the people to hold on to the traditions of God, not men.

Travis
 
Thou shall not judge, JJ. How Christian is it to call someone else non-Christian. Adventists don’t believe in the Trinity? News to me.

What if you don’t boil the cheeseburger?
 
There is no express command to celebrate the sabbath on Saturday. Beyond that there are valid and traditional reasons to celebrate on Sunday.

Jesus rose from the dead “on the first day of the week.” (Mt 28:1) Because it is the “first day,” the day of Christ’s Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the “eighth day” following the sabbath, it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ’s Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord’s Day.

We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.
(St. Justin Martyr, I Apol. 67: PG 6, 429 and 432.)
newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

Justin Martyr lived between the years 100AD and 165AD, nearly two centuries before Constantine. This shows that the earliest Christians gathered on Sunday.

Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ’s Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man’s eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:

*Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord’s Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death. *

(St. Ignatius of Antioch, Ad Magn. 9, 1: SCh 10, 88. )
newadvent.org/fathers/0105.htm

Ignatius was born in Syria, around the year 50; died at Rome between 98 and 117. This also shows that the earliest Christians gathered on Sunday.

The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship as a sign of his universal beneficence to all. Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

The truth is that the earliest Christians gathered on Sunday and it has nothing to do with Constantine.

God bless,
Subrosa
 
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