Seventh Day Adventists

[twagler]

Subrosa,

I realize that certain writers claim that people gathered on Sunday. Is it a coincidence that all of these writers hail from Alexandria or Rome? Socrates (along with many others) says that the Jewish sabbath was still observed all over in the 5th century, except for in Rome and Alexandria. Here is a very good website on the history of sabbath observance.
sabbathtruth.com/history/sabbath_history5.asp#Top

I urge you to find other sources of these writings as well, don’t take one man’s word for it.

The Bible says to try to live like Jesus, to follow the laws he followed. What day did he observe the sabbath on? The same day the Jews did.

trav

 

[JoaoMachado]

twagler, first of all it is “Joao” I know it is a cool name, but don’t let it go to your head, it is basicaly “John Smith” in Portuguese.

First I would recommend you study when and how the Sacred Scripture came to be.

Second, have a look at my web site, I have put together a couple of posts just for Sabbath Keepers.

machado-family.com

God Bless you and Jesus keep you…

Joao

 

[twagler]

John,

First, I am sorry for botching your name. Second, although the eighth day references are interesting, there is no eighth day. Only seven.

God sanctified the seventh day at creation. It did not apply solely to the Jews. Mark 2:27-28…
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath"

He did not say the sabbath was made for the Jews…

What about Isiah 56? This is an end time prophecy, and there are two explicit references to sabbath-keeping.

Travis
p.s. The menu on your page is a little annoying as it covers up some of the words.

 

[Subrosa]

Hi Trav!

twagler:

Subrosa,

I realize that certain writers claim that people gathered on Sunday. Is it a coincidence that all of these writers hail from Alexandria or Rome?

So I’ll give you that these writers are Roman. Guess what? I’m a Roman Catholic. So, these writers are expressing traditions established by the Roman and Alexandrian apostles, namely Peter. The Orthodox churches also celebrate on Sunday.

Socrates (along with many others) says that the Jewish sabbath was still observed all over in the 5th century, except for in Rome and Alexandria.

There is no doubt that the sabbath was celebrated on Saturday during the time I mentioned in my last post. It still is on Saturday today in synagogues. What I was trying to point out is that Sunday was becoming the traditional day for Christians.

I urge you to find other sources of these writings as well, don’t take one man’s word for it.

I read all kindsa stuff. Sunday worship is a practice of my church, so I’ll stick with it. Actually, I go to church several times a week. It’s convenient because there is a church right next door to where I go to college and they have Mass at noon everyday. (Betcha didn’t know Catholics have Mass EVERY DAY, did you?).

The Bible says to try to live like Jesus, to follow the laws he followed. What day did he observe the sabbath on? The same day the Jews did.

Ok, He was Jewish! That makes sense. You’ve got to keep in mind, though, that Gentiles were becoming Christians and were not subject to the sabbath on Saturday, a Jewish tradition. He also told the apostles in Matthew,

*18 **Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. **19 **Again, (amen,) I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father. **20 *For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Please keep in mind that the Catholic Church has it’s foundation both in Apostlic Tradition and Scripture. Sunday worship is an Apostolic Tradition, therefore it is condoned by Jesus.

As a matter of fact, the Gospels report that Jesus conflicted with the Jewish leaders several times over Sabbath issues. Jesus rejected the restrictive traditions of the elders. He allowed his disciples to pluck grain, he healed, he taught, and he told a man to carry his sleeping mat (Mt 12:1-12; Lk 14:1-6; Jn 5:1-18). Jesus noted that priests worked on the Sabbath, that animals could be rescued or taken to water, and circumcisions could be performed (Mt 12:5-6, 11; Lk 13:15; Jn 7:22). Jesus claimed to have authority over the Sabbath, to set people free on the Sabbath, and to work on the Sabbath (Mt 12:12; Lk 13:16; Jn 5:17).
But Jesus did not break the Sabbath, since he was born under the law and lived under the old covenant requirements (Gal 4:4; Heb 4:15). His activities broke Pharisaic rules, but not the law of God. Early Christian writers did not claim that Jesus broke the Sabbath.

The first disciples of Jesus were pious Jews in a Jewish culture. They apparently kept the Sabbath according to contemporary Jewish customs. Luke tells us that some female disciples rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment (Lk 23:56), and that the apostles taught in the temple courts (Ac 3:1; 5:12, 25). Paul customarily preached in synagogues on the Sabbaths (Ac 13:14; 16:13; 17:2; 18:1-11).

We are also told that the disciples met daily (Ac 2:46), and that Paul preached daily (Ac 19:9). There is no record that Paul taught his converts to keep the Sabbath. Actually, he taught that special days were something about which Christians should not be judged (Col 2:16), and he asked the Roman Christians to tolerate differences in worship practices having to do with foods and days.
(Rom 14:5).

In short, none of the texts just discussed give any command for Christians to meet on or to avoid meeting on any particular day. None of the texts can be used to prove that Christians regularly met on any particular day of the week.

Sunday gatherings are simply the Catholic Church’s practice, and I don’t think you can give me a valid reason not to. For that matter, I would not try to presume to tell you that your sabbath practice is wrong, either. Keep a day for God. I’m sure He will be happy with it.

God bless,
Subrosa

 

[shannin]

twagler:

Subrosa,

I realize that certain writers claim that people gathered on Sunday. Is it a coincidence that all of these writers hail from Alexandria or Rome? Socrates (along with many others) says that the Jewish sabbath was still observed all over in the 5th century, except for in Rome and Alexandria. Here is a very good website on the history of sabbath observance.
sabbathtruth.com/history/sabbath_history5.asp#Top

I urge you to find other sources of these writings as well, don’t take one man’s word for it.
The Bible says to try to live like Jesus, to follow the laws he followed. What day did he observe the sabbath on? The same day the Jews did.

Hi Twagler,
Do you know that Catholics have Mass** every day of the week**. I work during the week and usually spend my lunch hour at Mass, worshiping God. I also go to Mass on Saturday evenings, which fulfills my Sunday obligation.

Why do Adventists make such a big deal over the sabbath? I don’t know of any other faith that has as many opportunities to worship as the Catholic Church does. I live in a town of approx. 50,000 people, with approx. 15 Catholic Churches that have Masses at different times each and every day.

Maybe you should ask the SDAs what they believe in, instead of what they don’t believe in. It seems to me as though all they do is bash Catholics and talk about the end prophecy.

When Jesus left the Apostles, he didn’t just hand them a written New Testament. Where do you think the New Testament comes from? Jesus left a Church, with Peter, guided by the Holy Spirit, in charge, to tend to and feed his sheep. The Catholic Church was in existence several hundred years before the New Testament was even cannonized.

 

[steve_b]

twagler:

I am not SDA, even though I do agree with much of their platform.

Why? They are a tradition of men.

twagler:

The sabbath was made for man…not made for man to change it.

Don’t misquote the statement.

“The sabbath was made for man, man was not made for the sabbath”[Mk 2:27].

twagler:

Why, then, was Sunday not observed immediately after the resurrection? Why the gradual change over hundreds of years?

Who told you Sunday wasn’t practiced immediately after the resurrection?

twagler:

Constantine may not have had papal power, but he certainly tried to end the observance of Saturday. I am sure the church told him that this was not just.

Where are you getting your history?

 

[twagler]

Shannin,

First of all, I do know that Catholics have mass everyday. So this means they observe the sabbath everyday, right? Of course not. Mass/worship is NOT synonymous with sabbath. Plain and simple. Like I said before, if only God had done something at the time of creation to set the seventh day apart…we wouldn’t have any need for discussion.
People make a big deal because it is a commandment.

Steve,

Tradition of men? Kneeling to Mary, praying to Mary.

Were Christ’s disciples substituting Sunday for the Sabbath? Luke 23:56 says they observed the Sabbath after Christ had been buried. Notice the very next verses: “Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb” (24:1-2). Now, on Sunday, they had come to do work. Obviously, the Sabbath they had kept holy was the previous day-Saturday.
After His resurrection, did Jesus in some way indicate that His former teaching had been “done away” or “nailed to the cross”? No-not in ANY WAY! Rather, Jesus instructed His disciples to go out over the whole earth and teach these same things-even to the END of this age. “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe ALL THINGS that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:18-20).

The Apostle John stated, near the very end of his life, that “he who says he abides in [Christ] ought himself also to walk just as He walked” (1 John 2:6).

Even the Apostle Paul-the Apostle to the Gentiles-kept the Sabbath regularly. And he wasn’t even converted to Christianity until well after Christ’s resurrection. Notice the account of Paul and Barnabas in Acts 13:14: “But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down.”
“But,” some might argue, “Paul was just meeting with the Jews on Saturday since that was *their *Sabbath!” However, the book of Acts tells us that “when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath” (13:42). Here was Paul’s grand opportunity to inform the Gentiles that they would now meet on Sunday! But did he? On the contrary! “The next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God” (v. 44).

Then Paul, as his CUSTOM was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures" (Acts 17:1-2).

Acts 18:4 tells us that **“he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.”

**“Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1 John 2:3-4).

History.
First of all I was being sarcastic about the church stepping in. Second, I get my history from a library. Do you actually deny the fact that Constantine tried to abolish the observance of the Jewish sabbath? Come on now.

 

[Church_Militant]

Who cares what Constantine did? He was the emperor…not the head of the church. I don’t care what Constantine did…he was one guy…not the Catholic church. He did some food stuff and yet he also did some typically Roman stuff as well.

Deal with what the Catholic Church actually teaches…not some guy who doesn’t represent us anyway.

As for traditions of men…the intercessions of the saints is right there in the NT all over the place. If “the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.” then how can the intercession of the saints in heaven not avail us? But that is not this topic and it’s been dealt with on other threads and articles. catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp
deal with that on your own…

 

[steve_b]

twagler:

Do you think this is speaking about traditions of MEN? No way. It is talking about the Bible and the teaching of that Bible by the epistles. And what would one of these traditions have been? Hmmm…observance of Saturday as the sabbath?

Travis,

Look at the passage again.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

1. traditions is plural, both oral and written tradition.
2. Both are equally authoritative because both come from the apostles. It’s not oral alone, or written[scripture] alone, but both.
3. Both MUST be held on to.

An example of traditions of men would be the SDA., Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodosts, Baptists, Evangelicals, etc etc etc. IOW, all Protestants.

twagler:

"Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. " Colossians 2:8

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. But you be watchful in all things…” 2 Timothy 4:2-5

In otherwords, every single group that split from the Catholic Church and the chair of Peter has turned to the traditions of men. They couldn’t endure sound doctrine, and turned their ears away from the truth and onto fables.

twagler:

I find the verses leading up to II Thes 2:13 very interesting.
It is reinforcing the fact that someone will try to change times and laws. And in verse 13 Paul reminds the people to hold on to the traditions of God, not men.

And we’ve seen this change happen with all the splits from the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. Every split, and I mean every single one, is a tradition of men. It didn’t come from God. Paul’s letter to the Church of Rome identified where all these divisions comes from.,

" 17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.
*20The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet***.**"
[Rm 16:17…]

Now tell me my friend, do you still want to hang out with the SDA’s?

 

[twagler]

I can see why I get nowhere. I could say 2 million times that I am not SDA, but you would still ask me why I am SDA.

As for II Thes. What do you think those traditions were? Was Jesus not their only teacher? You think it was common practice to pray to Mary? Come on.

 

[adstrinity]

twagler:

I can see why I get nowhere. I could say 2 million times that I am not SDA, but you would still ask me why I am SDA.

As for II Thes. What do you think those traditions were? Was Jesus not their only teacher? You think it was common practice to pray to Mary? Come on.

lol!!! Yes, they probably did ask for The Virgin’s intercession, whether she was on Earth or not is a different story!

 

[twagler]

adstrinity:

lol!!! Yes, they probably did ask for The Virgin’s intercession, whether she was on Earth or not is a different story!

Oh my.

 

[steve_b]

twagler:

I realize that certain writers claim that people gathered on Sunday. Is it a coincidence that all of these writers hail from Alexandria or Rome?

Coincidence??? Not at all. St Paul explains.

Rm 1:

7To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
**8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. **

**9God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you 10in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you. **

11I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong– 12that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other’s faith

Rm 16:20The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet

Satan loses because Our Lord promised that the gates of hell wouldn’t prevail against the Church He builds on Peter, which is the Church of Rome. That’s why Rome will crush Satan under its feet.

Get with the right Church my friend.

twagler:

Socrates (along with many others) says that the Jewish sabbath was still observed all over in the 5th century, except for in Rome and Alexandria.

Ugh Travis,

Socrates??? 5th century??? BC???

 

[steve_b]

twagler:

I can see why I get nowhere. I could say 2 million times that I am not SDA, but you would still ask me why I am SDA.

I said hang with the SDA, as in hang out? Why would I say that?

1. You said " I do agree with much of their platform."
2. you quote from their websites to support your views
3. You post their websites to support your views
4. I don’t see you backing off any of their positions

Now you want to disassociate yourself from them?

twagler:

As for II Thes. What do you think those traditions were? Was Jesus not their only teacher? You think it was common practice to pray to Mary? Come on.

1. Technically, no one prayed to Jesus either, when he was here.
2. What do you know about the Early Church practices regarding Mary?.

 

[twagler]

Ugh Travis,

Socrates??? 5th century??? BC???

My bad. Should have been clearer, Socrates Scholasticus.

As for the traditions of the early church…who knows? Praying to Mary? Doubtful.

 

[Church_Militant]

twagler:

Ugh Travis,

Socrates??? 5th century??? BC???

My bad. Should have been clearer, Socrates Scholasticus.

As for the traditions of the early church…who knows? Praying to Mary? Doubtful.

The only thing doubtful is your scholarship…since there are prayers to the saints written on the tombs of the Martyrs in the catacombs and they are from the earliest era of the church, that tells us that they did that too. The Sub Tuum dates back almost as far.

Here’s something that covers some of this even better:
"In Heaven and On Earth

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth. "

Oh yeah and here’s a quote from “the Shepherd” about the intercession of saints:

"Hermas

“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]). "
The whole thing is here: catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp
catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Subrosa]

twagler:

As for the traditions of the early church…who knows? Praying to Mary? Doubtful.

Sorry twagler, you gotta get your facts straight.

One of the oldest catacombs contains a drawing of the Madonna and Child dating back to the second century, and the oldest known request to Mary, the “Sub Tuum Praesidium”, dates back to at least 300 AD!

We fly to your patronage, O holy Theotokos;

despise not our petition in our necessities,
but deliver us always from all dangers,
O ever-glorious and blessed Virgin.

Note: Theotokos means “Godbearer” or Mother of God.

http://home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/catacomb.jpg

The drawing of Mary and Christ child dates from the second century. The man on the left is pointing to a star above Mary and her Child.

 

[Max_Kolbe]

Subrosa:

Sorry twagler, you gotta get your facts straight.

One of the oldest catacombs contains a drawing of the Madonna and Child dating back to the second century, and the oldest known request to Mary, the “Sub Tuum Praesidium”, dates back to at least 300 AD!

We fly to your patronage, O holy Theotokos;

despise not our petition in our necessities,
but deliver us always from all dangers,
O ever-glorious and blessed Virgin.

Note: Theotokos means “Godbearer” or Mother of God.

http://home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/catacomb.jpg

The drawing of Mary and Christ child dates from the second century. The man on the left is pointing to a star above Mary and her Child.

Ouch! Sounds like this young SDA needs to dig into history! Good reply Subrosa!

 

[steve_b]

twagler:

Were Christ’s disciples substituting Sunday for the Sabbath? Luke 23:56 says they observed the Sabbath after Christ had been buried. Notice the very next verses: “Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb” (24:1-2). Now, on Sunday, they had come to do work. Obviously, the Sabbath they had kept holy was the previous day-Saturday.
After His resurrection, did Jesus in some way indicate that His former teaching had been “done away” or “nailed to the cross”?

the book of Acts tells us that “when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath” (13:42).

Then Paul, as his CUSTOM was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures" (Acts 17:1-2).

Acts 18:4 tells us that "he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks."

"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:3-4).

1. Jesus restates all of the decalogue except for one commandment. “And Jesus replied, You shall not kill, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and you shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Mt. 19:18–19). “It is written: ‘The Lord your God shall you worship, and him alone shall you serve’” (Mt. 4:10). Finally, “But I say to you, do not swear at all; not by heaven, for it is God’s throne” (Mt. 5:34). The commandment Jesus didn’t restate? To keep holy the Sabbath.
2. Gentiles were not under Jewish law…
3. passages such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16–17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, during New Testament times, Christians worship on the Lord’s Day—Sunday—
4. Jesus said “For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath” (Mt. 12:1–8). “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath” (Mk. 2:27).
5. During Our Lord’s time on earth, He was under the old covenant and observed all OT Jewish laws perfectly.t. However, after he enunciated a new covenant at the Last Supper, Sunday was the day he was found to have been resurrected, and his first two appearance to the twelve disciples were on the following two Sundays (Jn. 20:19, 20:26). Again, five weeks later—on Sunday—the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles.

6 Colossians 2:17–19: “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.”

1. “For one person considers one day more important than another, while another person considers all days alike. Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. Whoever observes the day observes it to the Lord” (Rom. 14:5–6). Paul does not specifically mention the Sabbath here

twagler:
Do you actually deny the fact that Constantine tried to abolish the observance of the Jewish sabbath? Come on now.

Do you have proof?

 

[adstrinity]

If I may be obnoxious here, Paul was writting about the Bible?!!! twagler, there WAS no Bible at the time!!! There was no standard accepted Bible for almost 350 years after St. Paul wrote!!